Horse disappearing infront, help me please

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StoptheCavalry

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Hi,

Sorry if this gets a bit long. Bit of background, moved in October to a gorgeous yard with amazing hacking. Previously our hacks had been mainly walking on roads new yard there are plently of bridle paths with some great canters..... so here's the problem. My horse has always been great infront of behind at any pace, would walk (a bit reluctantly) while others were cantering no strong or silly etc. Anyway he had been getting a bit joggy over the last few weeks which I have mainly put down to not enough work and he's not tanking off or anything but he does have a tendancy to go very over bent (think head touching chest) and throw his head around when he gets frustrated mainly when being made to stay behind others. Then last weekend we came to a point on the hack for a canter, the other horse set off steadily in front and he went into canter bucking (excited bounces really but baring in mind I have had him nearly a year and a half and think I have seen him buck once) and not going forwards head against his chest like a coiled spring. I pushed him forwards and bouncing did stop, he pulled up fine at the end and we carried on as normal. The following day we were hacking in the woods and the opportunity came to jump a small log, other horse in front set of quietly, my horse again head against chest trying to gallop after her resulting in him almost forgetting to jump and doing the biggest cat leap over the log.

So here lies the problem.... his head disappears so half halts are completely ineffective, trying to slow down with my seat whilst trying to uncoil the spring I am sat on and get him to stride out whilst not increase the pace.... HOW?!

It is possible he is uncomfortable in his saddle as since moving we have done a lot more hill work so his shape should have changed but it seems to be much more excitable than pain although my physio is coming next Tuesday to be on the safe side.
 
I look forward to the answers to this one, as my normally well behaved girl was a tad over excitable horse on a hack this morning, so I am hoping there are some inspiring replies!

I have decided to do a little bit of schooling, first in the sand school and then out on a hack on our own, with lots of transitions, etc and really really concentrating on keeping my bottom in the saddle during downward transitions, looking up and using my seat for stability. I am also going to practice lenthening and shortening the canter/gallop, so at least when we get into that situation, I am practiced at 'owning' the paces!!! It may help to have a few lessons on this so that someone on the ground can really see what is happening and give you a few pointers.

Another thought is, do you have a friend who you could do a schooling hack with and practice ensuring your horse is listening to you all the time regardless of what is going on around you?

Oh, and I think I would cut out all hard food. Sounds as if his energy levels are just fine!
 
canteron said:
I look forward to the answers to this one, as my normally well behaved girl was a tad over excitable horse on a hack this morning, so I am hoping there are some inspiring replies!

I have decided to do a little bit of schooling, first in the sand school and then out on a hack on our own, with lots of transitions, etc and really really concentrating on keeping my bottom in the saddle during downward transitions, looking up and using my seat for stability. I am also going to practice lenthening and shortening the canter/gallop, so at least when we get into that situation, I am practiced at 'owning' the paces!!! It may help to have a few lessons on this so that someone on the ground can really see what is happening and give you a few pointers.

Another thought is, do you have a friend who you could do a schooling hack with and practice ensuring your horse is listening to you all the time regardless of what is going on around you?

Oh, and I think I would cut out all hard food. Sounds as if his energy levels are just fine!
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We don't have a school at our new yard although we are hoping to borrow one from the farm next door so hope to do a bit of schooling and remind him who's boss. I have also got in touch with an instructor in my area in the hope of getting some lessons booked.

What I am struggling with is riding him forward from the vile boucey hop on the spot whilst trying to not really increase the speed. Most of this is done with baggy reins as he has vanished infront of me. So whilst trying to ride him up into the bridle and raise his head I am telling him the opposite by slowing him with my seat. Not sure if I am completely missing something with him?

I don't want to completely cut out hard feed as his condition has only just come right after a couple of ropey weeks although I have really cut it back to much less than it was.

On Sunday me and my hacking partner until jumping were practising the art of walking in open spaces (we have been taking almost every opportunity for a run after the awful weather!!) so they aren't always anticipating a canter.
 
CobsGalore said:
Have you tried turning him on a small circle?
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Quite often we are cantering on tracks and so it is not possible to safely turn a circle. My issue is not stopping him as I've said he is not at all strong and he doesn't tank off but when he goes really over bent I struggle to get his head back up without also increasing the speed as I feel I am contradicting the aids. The only thing I can liken him to is a coiled up spring so rather than tanking off he just coils himself up and boings along taking really short strides as fast as he can.
 
Also just to add when I have put open spaces in my earlier post this can occasionally be the edge of a field or in Saturday's case the middle of a field in-between what would generally be 2 crops so again not always possible to turn a circle added to this the ground wasn't great hence us just wanting to take it steady so wouldn't feel comfortable pulling him round down hill.

Is there a way of getting him back to being happy behind others or now he gets excited by it is this how it will always be?
 
You need to divert him before his head disappears. Any situation where you think he might get excited, you need to give him a useful outlet for his energy, before he gets chance to use it in a silly way. So leg yield, shoulder in, collection in walk/trot/canter if he's at that level etc. But you need to ask before he starts. If you are already for eg doing collected trot & something excites him, its very easy to use that coiled spring feeling to get an amazing collected trot. Depending on the size of the tracks you are on, 10m half circles, either with a few straight strides or going immediately onto another half circle on the opposite rein are good, also serpentines etc. And lots of transistions, both between & within paces. Look at it this way, he's already offering loads of impulsion when you get the coiled spring feeling, instead of thinking how to reduce it, think of ways you can use it positively with him working correctly, rather than the overbent silly way he is doing.
 
Can you let him go in front, and keep him nice and calm?

One of mine is like this...he's ok on his own, he's ok with another horse....any more than that, say in a group and he really objects to not being up front....mini bucks, jogging...then big bucks and the more I hold him back the more stupid he gets.....its a pain. Luckily I have sympathetic mates who don't mind me taking the lead. Although I have to say it does my head in.....:mad:
 
Hippona said:
Can you let him go in front, and keep him nice and calm?

One of mine is like this...he's ok on his own, he's ok with another horse....any more than that, say in a group and he really objects to not being up front....mini bucks, jogging...then big bucks and the more I hold him back the more stupid he gets.....its a pain. Luckily I have sympathetic mates who don't mind me taking the lead. Although I have to say it does my head in.....:mad:
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I can lead but I tend to hack out with the same person every Saturday and Sunday which is our only chance for a decent ride out and I feel a bit bad always leading (she is however very understanding) I also think that he hasn't always been this way and would rather nip it in the bud(butt?! not sure) before it becomes an actual issue and also incase it is ever necessary for us to be behind.... you know for when I find my brave pants and go hunting ;)
 
Not had chance to read through all the thread so sorry if someone has already said this!
What is he like with other horses in a school, do you think that working on acting sensibly behind others within the school might help?
My boy was very similar to this when I first got him and working in the school with other horses and then progressing to out hacking worked for us!
 
Littlelegs said:
You need to divert him before his head disappears. Any situation where you think he might get excited, you need to give him a useful outlet for his energy, before he gets chance to use it in a silly way. So leg yield, shoulder in, collection in walk/trot/canter if he's at that level etc. But you need to ask before he starts. If you are already for eg doing collected trot & something excites him, its very easy to use that coiled spring feeling to get an amazing collected trot. Depending on the size of the tracks you are on, 10m half circles, either with a few straight strides or going immediately onto another half circle on the opposite rein are good, also serpentines etc. And lots of transistions, both between & within paces. Look at it this way, he's already offering loads of impulsion when you get the coiled spring feeling, instead of thinking how to reduce it, think of ways you can use it positively with him working correctly, rather than the overbent silly way he is doing.
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This is really helpful and makes sense, it's what I have to do if I ever hack him on his own as he REALLY hates that, also keeps my mind of worrying!! I can quite easily do this in trot and walk but sometimes struggle in the canter, although if we aren't in an open space eg field and on the bridle path (hedges either side) he is much better and has a canter to die for. If I explain exactly what happened on Saturday you might be able to suggest what I could have done differently.... we come off the bridle path through a very tricky gate where you have to go one at a time, my hacking buddy was stopped at the other side of the gate to wait for me to come through, she leads through the middle of the field (as explained inbetween 2 crops) slightly up hill and a little muddy so didn't want to really let them go. Literally walked 2 strides then simultaneously went in to canter, as lead horse went Zak bucked then boinged on the spot with his head against his chest, he had his head I wasn't asking for any collection, in fact I was slightly out of the saddle, this continued for about 100 metres by which time we were most of the way up the field (like I said we take every opportunity :D) he then extended slightly and pulled up at the end very nicely
 
amber4ever said:
Not had chance to read through all the thread so sorry if someone has already said this!
What is he like with other horses in a school, do you think that working on acting sensibly behind others within the school might help?
My boy was very similar to this when I first got him and working in the school with other horses and then progressing to out hacking worked for us!
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I haven't actually ever schooled him with others, although fingers crossed we will find out this weekend when we borrow the school. As a rule his way of evading is to go over bent which when we are schooling I can fix this normally by moving him forward and get him off his front end but in open spaces the added giddyness seems to make this alot more difficult.

ETA: This seems to have developed over the last couple of weeks as he will normally trot quite happily behind the others on the road and canter down a track without a problem. What I am trying to get at is how can I slow him down, extend his stride and lift him up all at the same time when his head is pinned to his chest? I don't want much!!
 
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StoptheCavalry said:
I can lead but I tend to hack out with the same person every Saturday and Sunday which is our only chance for a decent ride out and I feel a bit bad always leading (she is however very understanding) I also think that he hasn't always been this way and would rather nip it in the bud(butt?! not sure) before it becomes an actual issue and also incase it is ever necessary for us to be behind.... you know for when I find my brave pants and go hunting ;)
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I probably wont ever get my brave pants on to go hunting .....the potential shame of being sent home for passing the master puts me off:o

Your horse sounds like mine.....never strong, pulls up easily.....very light in the mouth just very, very boingy and exciteable.. What breed is yours BTW?
 
Hippona said:
I probably wont ever get my brave pants on to go hunting .....the potential shame of being sent home for passing the master puts me off:o

Your horse sounds like mine.....never strong, pulls up easily.....very light in the mouth just very, very boingy and exciteable.. What breed is yours BTW?
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Yeh to be honest I probably won't ever find my brave pants, a friend has offered to take me to a show in summer and I'm already thinking of reasons not to :D!!

Mine is IDxTB but very much more like a TB what is yours? Before we started doing more exciting things we really prided ourselves on our (his) manners, completely unflappable and so safe. Just recently the manners are starting to slip, this may be a combination of lack of work (had sooo much snow), his condition now coming right so he now looks and obviously great. I also think there may be an element of not quite being able to knock the edge off him. We don't have a school so other than a bit on hacks he hasn't been schooled properly since October and when we have got to go for canters I am having to pull him up just as we get going so I think he probably just wants a good blast. If he was strong I could try a different bit combination so I almost think the disappearing front end is even more disconcerting.
 
Hippona said:
Can you let him go in front, and keep him nice and calm?

One of mine is like this...he's ok on his own, he's ok with another horse....any more than that, say in a group and he really objects to not being up front....mini bucks, jogging...then big bucks and the more I hold him back the more stupid he gets.....its a pain. Luckily I have sympathetic mates who don't mind me taking the lead. Although I have to say it does my head in.....:mad:
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Yeah my daughter's otherwise 100% gentleman TB gelding is very much like this, a dobbin on his own, ok in 2, 3+ he's excitable but tolerable as long as he is allowed to be in front. Though he doesn't buck, just jogs, spins, reverses, the scary thing about it is he loses his head and doesn't care where he puts himself. This weekend he quite literally threw himself up a small tree/large bush and bruised himself. There were 4 of us, 2 on TBs who both needed to be in front,, my horse and her companion just looked bemused and wondered what the heck all the fuss was about!

I don't really have any advice for you, my daughter thinks its important to keep his mind and body going forward (not always possible!) not do fast work every single hack or in the same places, she rides him with a grackle and has a universal gag, mostly on the snaffle setting, but perhaps she could have done with a bit more influence on that particular day.
 
skint1 said:
Yeah my daughter's otherwise 100% gentleman TB gelding is very much like this, a dobbin on his own, ok in 2, 3+ he's excitable but tolerable as long as he is allowed to be in front. Though he doesn't buck, just jogs, spins, reverses, the scary thing about it is he loses his head and doesn't care where he puts himself. This weekend he quite literally threw himself up a small tree/large bush and bruised himself. There were 4 of us, 2 on TBs who both needed to be in front,, my horse and her companion just looked bemused and wondered what the heck all the fuss was about!

I don't really have any advice for you, my daughter thinks its important to keep his mind and body going forward (not always possible!) not do fast work every single hack or in the same places, she rides him with a grackle and has a universal gag, mostly on the snaffle setting, but perhaps she could have done with a bit more influence on that particular day.
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Mine is in a full cheek snaffle with copper rollers and a flash. He isn't really ever strong. When I bought him they said they used a dutch gag for when he is strong but to me that is the opposite of what he needs, I imagine the poll pressure would pull his head down where as I want to bring him up . Silly horses!!!! We did make the conscious effort to just walk the field on the Sunday and now we are having better weather we can ride more so won't need to take every canter opportunity we can.
 
Mines an arab.....when I got him he was so nervous he didn't want to hack out, so the fact that he loves it now and wants to lead the way is kind of charming in itself....he is better to be kept moving forwards, I agree with that...however, in our case he will not always lengthen his stride, so he goes forwards at a jog...possibly sideways.....even with my leg-on he doesn't always go forwards into the contact either so we kind of do a piaffe-type movment, he's very collected and bunched up behind the bit.......he does settle though and stretch himself out eventually, I'm hoping he'll grow out of it:rolleyes:
 
Hi I had very simlar thing, previously kick a long as he got fitter and thiner got strong behind and his head/mouth would disapear to his chest I have put him in a canterbury gag, which i find lifts his head, he is very happy in it and I have the brakes when needed:)
 
Firstly, hindsight is a wonderful thing so I'm not saying you did anything wrong on Saturday, or that you could have forseen it. But next time in the same situation, instead of two strides of walk, ask for leg yield in either walk or trot the second he comes through the gate. Depending on the layout of the gate, you could actually leg yield a few steps going through it too. Or be working him before the gate, turn on the forehand opening/closing it, then tiny loops after it. Now you know it might happen, you can preempt it.
 
Hippona said:
Mines an arab.....when I got him he was so nervous he didn't want to hack out, so the fact that he loves it now and wants to lead the way is kind of charming in itself....he is better to be kept moving forwards, I agree with that...however, in our case he will not always lengthen his stride, so he goes forwards at a jog...possibly sideways.....even with my leg-on he doesn't always go forwards into the contact either so we kind of do a piaffe-type movment, he's very collected and bunched up behind the bit.......he does settle though and stretch himself out eventually, I'm hoping he'll grow out of it:rolleyes:
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That is just like mine, I'm struggling to lengthen the stride without him jogging. Bunched up behind the bit is a very good description of what happens, and again Zak will settle eventually..... blooming animals!! Maybe we should just be happy with our piaffe and go everywhere like this ;)
 
Littlelegs said:
Firstly, hindsight is a wonderful thing so I'm not saying you did anything wrong on Saturday, or that you could have forseen it. But next time in the same situation, instead of two strides of walk, ask for leg yield in either walk or trot the second he comes through the gate. Depending on the layout of the gate, you could actually leg yield a few steps going through it too. Or be working him before the gate, turn on the forehand opening/closing it, then tiny loops after it. Now you know it might happen, you can preempt it.
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That is really helpful thank you, I will definitely try that next time we go that way. Hindsight is great and to be honest we have only been that way a few times and have always cantered that field so he was probably just excited but I will try to be one step ahead of him rather than try to correct it as were boinging along!
 
majors said:
Hi I had very simlar thing, previously kick a long as he got fitter and thiner got strong behind and his head/mouth would disapear to his chest I have put him in a canterbury gag, which i find lifts his head, he is very happy in it and I have the brakes when needed:)
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I cant find a canterbury gag anywhere, do you have an image or link?
 
Having a nutty ex racer I have experienced pretty much every problem there is to experience lol. I'm more of the 'if you don't do it right start again' person. When my horse gets strong or doesn't listen I normally pull him back to walk and ask again. Every time I used to trot my horse he used to charge off and I would end up galloping totally out of control in the middle of no where. I asked for a nice trot, the second he got strong or started taking charge I brought him back to walk. Did this again and again until he realised it was more fun listening and working together than me constantly making him walk, run, walk run etc.

Probably not the best reply, but any problem needs sorting.
 
StoptheCavalry said:
That is just like mine, I'm struggling to lengthen the stride without him jogging. Bunched up behind the bit is a very good description of what happens, and again Zak will settle eventually..... blooming animals!! Maybe we should just be happy with our piaffe and go everywhere like this ;)
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Lol.....my friend always says ' I know you find it annoying, but he looks so beautiful when he does that'......hmmm....possibly he does, but ...grrrrr:D
 
When a horse is boinging and pulling, I find a lot of leg is the best thing - to push the back end underneath them and balance them up - should bring the head up too as the horse becomes more uphill. My horse can boing for Britain, and I find keeping the rein contact, pushing with my legs so much it hurts until she brings he back end underneath her, and then I relax my contact..
 
Hippona said:
Lol.....my friend always says ' I know you find it annoying, but he looks so beautiful when he does that'......hmmm....possibly he does, but ...grrrrr:D
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It's also very comfortable to sit to as well. When I first got him and he was a bit joggy I used to make him jog on my terms, if he broke the walk he would jog until I said he could go back to walk, he soon found it much easier to walk than jog everywhere slowly. Actually maybe this could fix my current problem......well maybe as long as he decides to stop his buckaroo impression :D
 
majors said:
Sorry thats because its a Cheltenham gag (my excuse is I am il)!!:)
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Thanks! I would have thought that would provide poll pressure and lower the head, I may actually have one of these in my collection from when I was addicted to buying things I don't need or use :) You can use 2 reins cant you?

ps hope you feel better soon
 
Thank you for the replies everyone, we have alot to try, hopefully he has just had a mad weekend and won't make a habit of this!! Excited for lessons now :)
 
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