Horse diving, then running off with you

[Patches]

My mare is the epitome of calm, steady and dependable generally speaking. She is absolutely fine on farm rides in company, doesn't get silly or strong etc. In the school I would go as far as to say she is actually rather lazy.

However, get her on the hunting field and it's a whole new ball game!

She has found this habit of diving her head to the floor fast/sharp/hard and snatching the reins.....she then takes off. No matter how quick I gather the reins there is no stopping her. It's all a bit too fast and out of control for my liking. I'm all for a good gallop, but I would like to be able to check her back occasionally. *grins*

I had her in a Short Shank Myler Combination yesterday. I have a feeling she might have been reacting to the poll pressure it creates as she seemed to be worse, even when I took a pull.

We've been in a Waterford Universal before, which she was ok in although I did lose her head a few times. This was our first outing and I've been trying to improve it since then, especially as the waterford pinched her mouth. (But I'm thinking I should try this again this weekend?)

We've been out in a KK Correction Bit which she didn't dive her head in, but we also had no brakes due to the fixed bar ported mouthpiece (Yes....I really was mental taking her hunting in that! LOL)

Also tried a Myler MB05 Medium Port Snaffle, my bit for schooling at home. She was actually ok in this for the first few runs, but got steadily stronger as we were out.


Grass reins have been suggested. I really like the idea of them, but, I won't be able to jump if she's in side reins....which will naff me off a tad (although I'd be safe). It couldn't be a long term option really.

The head diving wouldn't bother me so much, as lots of them were doing the same thing, if I could actually gather the reins up and pull her back as soon as she'd done it. Yesterday I had those rubber reins with leather stops along them on. Big mistake. The leather stops were cutting through my hands every time she tanked her head fast to the floor.....ripping my NEW gloves to shreds! ***Rolls eyes***

Soo.....I'm thinking either try the Waterford again, but with a flash and bit guards this time, OR perhaps a Kimblewick?

 

[Cliqmo]

What a naughty horse!! A kimblewick sounds like it could help, or perhaps an elevator gag? How strong is she for the rest of the time though? (ie when she isn't tanking off with you!) For me it seems a shame to overbit for a whole day just to help you during the few minutes of bad habit :crazy:

Obviouly I haven't actually seen her do it, but from what you say it sounds like it is something that needs curing through training. I would suggest giving one good sharp 'upwards' pull on the rein to tell her it isn't acceptable and then release the contact so she can't lean on you- think moving your hand from the 'normal' position to somewhere near your throat- so that you get her attention and can then ask her to stop in the normal way....Sadly in this tanking situation pulling and pulling probably wont help, and neither will even the strongest bit as it is the snatching of the rein in the first place theat causes the problem.

I hope you get to the bottom of it, and I hope someone has a brilliant bitting suggestion for helping curb this habit however in my experience it is a case of cracking the habit and not bitting to control her whilst she does it

 

[SpottedCat]

I don't generally advocate things like this, BUT when she is doing this, she is being damn rude, so be rude back! As soon as she dives her head down, give her a short sharp, HARD sock upwards with the reins - one or both - make it really uncomfortable for her to do it. Being consistent like this should stop her doing it. You can be nice all day long, but if she is rude, be rude right back at her. I think this is probably more a 'being firm' issue than a bitting issue - I reckon she's figured out you're not strong enough in the core to stop her (I'm assuming she pulls you forwards out of the saddle when she does this?), and you won't do anything terribly unpleasant if she does it, so she then gets to have a fine old time galloping about doing what Miss P wants, marvelous!

 

[AmyMay]

At the risk of repeating myself - try a Kimblewick. Rubber reins, good set of gloves - and always have some sort of contact :0)

 

[Cliqmo]

Great minds SpottedCat :grin:

 

[Lollii]

I have the same (nearly) problem, I would be intersted in any replies, my horse doesn't take off, he tries but I can just about hold him in a NS waterford, but he snatches the reins and dives at jumps, puts his head down and doesn't concentrate after the jump as his head is on the floor and I have to gather up reins quickly!

I went out on Saturday and still evry muscle in my neck, back and arms are so painful I can hardly move!!

I was really envious when I saw a litle pony with grass reins on!! I have seen this on 'Stop my horse': but you wouldn't be able to jump with it.....The Remus, I'm not sure if I should try it.

http://stopthathorse.com/remus/remus.php

It is a progressive training aid to enable the rider to maintain a steady contact with a horse that tends to pull, lean or snatch on the rider's hands.
The Remus attaches to the saddle or the Lunging roller and to the horse's bit rings. It features a pulley system which allows flexion and prevents the horse becoming 'fixed' in its mouth.

 

[Patches]

I am scared of hurting her mouth...which is probably what causes the issue. The stronger the bit is, the more I'm wary of what damage it might do.

People keep telling me I can have a harsher bit and be milder in my hands, but it feels like it's going the opposite way.

The first time we went I did get arsey with her and I caught her mouth. I wouldn't go in that bit again...for fear of a repeat as she had 4 days off whilst it started to heal. However, that was the waterford, and I am now thinking of sticking some bit guards on, a flash (she didn't have one the first time) and being really firm again.

I've been seeking to improve what we had that first time....when in essence it's just going on a downward spiral.

Yes, she will pull me forwards...but only when I'm sitting in the saddle. Like when we're trotting down the road and she constantly dives her head down, whilst jogging, as it's not fast enough for her! The hounds trigger her. She wants to be up with the hounds. As soon as they get up (if they've been lying/sitting on a rest break) she starts moving about.

When I am in a forward seat, cantering, she doesn't actually pull me foward. We get one hand on the wither to brace against her and I can use the other hand to pull upwards. Perhaps I'm just too soft and I need to really yank....but again...I would be gutted if I hurt her mouth again....although not as gutted as I'd be to not be able to walk again if I came off. I need to focus on my priorities!

 

[AmyMay]

I don't think that yanking is they key or the answer, totally agree with you there. It's about finding the key to biting, and the balance between allowing her to go forward, but respecting you at the same time.

With smaller horses it can be hard - and whilst you may throw up your hands in horror, sometimes it's better to allow them a slow little canter on the road, rather than that awful trot where you can feel dragged about.

It's all about balance and experience. And the more you do it the more you'll get it.

 

[Cliqmo]

I am scared of hurting her mouth...which is probably what causes the issue. The stronger the bit is, the more I'm wary of what damage it might do.

People keep telling me I can have a harsher bit and be milder in my hands, but it feels like it's going the opposite way.

I had this exact mentality with my old horse! He was 6yrs old when I got him and built rather on the forehand, which meant he would lean horrendously when doing faster work! This caused me to be pulled forward in the saddle and lose my balance, thus unbalancing him further and causing the problem to get worse.

I rode that horse everywhere in a french link, getting my arms pulled out whenever we did fast work :crazy: but being determined that he needed training out of it and not bitting to hide it :smirk: It took him going out on loan and the loaner switching to using a pelham with HUGE success to see the folly of my ways- she could achieve a very light contact with that bit and it meant his fast work training could progress because she could stay balanced... it could wel work for you too...

 

[SpottedCat]

It was once pointed out to me that if the horse could still pull like a train despite a slightly sore mouth, it probably wasn't in *that* much pain and should be a bit politer.

IME, you get rubs/cuts from constant pulling/sawing/prolonged attempts to regain control. You don't get them from the short sharp shock treatment. Having been tanked off with more than once due to over-enthusiasm of horse, I can testify to the truth of this!

Stop thinking of bits in terms of severity, think of them in terms of action. I can be far, far softer in my hands XC with a pelham in than a snaffle, because a half halt is respected in the pelham due to its action. With a snaffle I have to have a tight hold all the time. I cantered round a stubble field in my new SJ bit yesterday. I can safely say that though it is my new fave bit for SJ and hacking, it probably won't work XC for us! It let him have too high a head carriage and brakes were lacking.

 

[Patches]

I just clicked you've changed your name again! LOL

Chestnut Cob is sending me a kimblewick to try. I know you, and others, have recommended them in the past. For whatever reason, my instructor dislikes kimblewicks so I've been a tad put off by her opinion.

Time to get over that and see if one will work for P I think. *grin*

The only issue I do have is that she will pull her head down regardless of what bit is in her mouth. It seems to be her first evasion tactic.

I'm going to sort the reins out and get some good gloves so that I can keep a hold of her without it causing me any pain. I used to wear spurs so I could jab her to make her head rise. Problem is, we've had to remove all go-faster aids as she genuinely doesn't need them! lol

I think I'm going to try to get her at the back too, away from the hounds.

 

[Patches]

High head carriage....oooo what was it? LOL

I know one of the main reasons my instructor wasn't fond of me trying a Kimblewick was due to the curb. Am I right in thinking curbs lower the head? We do not need heads lowering!

Gags, I believe, raise heads but P is far worse in a gag than a snaffle. I keep assuming that's due to the poll pressure.....but as I know precious little I could be wrong.

Pelham....whipper in horse had a pelham with roundings. Might be worth a try. I keep trying to think that she doesn't normally need a strong bit, so it seems alien to me to keep trying bits that I automatically associate with stronger horses.

That said....P was certainly not docile yesterday! LOL

 

[Patches]

Ooo thanks Ali. Sounds like P!

I wouldn't want double reins though hunting...as I've never ridden with them on the flat.

I know it's not correct technically, but I would use roundings. I've a feeling I don't need quite so much refinement anyway. ))

 

[chestnut cob]

But you're better off with a "strong" bit that you only need one touch on the reins with, than a "mild" bit that you're yanking on all day long.

There is a balance between getting a bit that they don't respect, and having too much of a bit. I honestly think she'll suit the kimblewick. I tried the kimblewick because I needed something to stop R getting his head on the floor or between his knees and tanking off. Kimblewick kept his head up but not too much - I never needed a martingale with him like I do for M.

I honestly think you're analysing the action of the bits too much. Just try lots of different ones. You have to adopt the attitude of "that didn't work, on to the next one to try". The waterford didn't work, the Myler didn't work, I doubt a snaffle/FL would be much good so on to the next. Try a gag, try a kimblewick, maybe try a pelham. Talk to my YO, she has loads and loads of bits that I'm sure she'd let you try - cherry roller, cheltenham gag, I've got Nelson's double, W bit, think I have a twisted snaffle...

I do also think grass reins would help you out enormously as she physically won't be able to get her head down. I don't know about bloodhounds but with FH, there is usually a way around any jumps and TBH a few days in grass reins without jumping is worth it to teach her some manners.

And stop stressing, you aren't the first person to struggle with bitting and you won't be the last

 

[SpottedCat]

Have a look at this:

http://www.shiresequestrian.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=808&cat=572&page=9

It's what I am now SJing in, but lec's old horse hunts in one. It seems to stop them setting through the necka nd jaw, which is my problem when SJ in a snaffle, rather than him being strong, which isn't the issue.

They're only cheap - Surrey Equestrian is the cheapest place, sot me under £15 with fast delivery, so you won't lose much by trying it. It is my new favourite bit, he is weirdly far more sensible to hack in it than he ever was in the pelham!

 

[chestnut cob]

Have a look at this:

http://www.shiresequestrian.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=808&cat=572&page=9

It's what I am now SJing in, but lec's old horse hunts in one. It seems to stop them setting through the necka nd jaw, which is my problem when SJ in a snaffle, rather than him being strong, which isn't the issue.

They're only cheap - Surrey Equestrian is the cheapest place, sot me under £15 with fast delivery, so you won't lose much by trying it. It is my new favourite bit, he is weirdly far more sensible to hack in it than he ever was in the pelham!

Have you attempted XC in it yet? Or is that not an option?

I don't think I'd realised that bit even existed though have seen something not too dissimilar with a single joint.

Patches, that one has to be an option if for no other reason than it's just so totally different to anything else she'd have ever had in her mouth. You'd have the element of surprise

 

[Kat]

It'd look a bit numpty but what about a whacking big knot in your reins so that they don't run through your hands when she puts her head down.

She'll soon stop if she starts socking herself in the gob everytime she tries it.

A smack on the shoulder might be an idea too.

 

[lisan]

I have the same (nearly) problem, I would be intersted in any replies, my horse doesn't take off, he tries but I can just about hold him in a NS waterford, but he snatches the reins and dives at jumps, puts his head down and doesn't concentrate after the jump as his head is on the floor and I have to gather up reins quickly!

I went out on Saturday and still evry muscle in my neck, back and arms are so painful I can hardly move!!

I know that feeling, lol

I had Ruby in an Elevator but had a flash on, had brakes but she really did'tn like it and stressed herself.

She snatched every time i got hold over her and as we were going off over the fields.

Thinking either pelham with two reins, or grackle with a hanging cheek snaffle as she really did'nt like the elevator action.

 

[SpottedCat]

Have you attempted XC in it yet? Or is that not an option?

I don't think I'd realised that bit even existed though have seen something not too dissimilar with a single joint.

Not tried XC yet - am planning to take him schooling in it and see what I think. I am guessing it is not going to work - I could barely hold him in it cantering round a stubble field yesterday....

 

[chestnut cob]

Not tried XC yet - am planning to take him schooling in it and see what I think. I am guessing it is not going to work - I could barely hold him in it cantering round a stubble field yesterday....

Oops! Be interested to hear how you get on as M is a big strong horse, like B.

It looks like it's a take on a french link, in that it has 2 joints rather than one, but with a lot of play in the mouthpiece. I'm trying to work out what the action is...

Sorry for hijacking your post Patches!

 

[maggiesmum]

spotted cat - how about this variation on it for XC
http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/P/Sweet_Iron_Copper_Tom_Thumb_tom_thumb_bit-(781).aspx

I used this for hunting on Sunday but at the 1st check I had to put the reins up to the middle ring (so it was more of a hanging cheek) as it was a bit too much!

 

[faerie666]

I had the same problem with my old boy, and the way I solved it was with a Cheltenham Gag. He went from a thug who ran off with me with his head on the floor in a snaffle, and cut his mouth to ribbons in the process, to a lovely, polite gentleman, with no cut mouth.
I also tried a french link dutch gag with 2 reins before the CG, but, even though I could hold him, he was still snatching and still had a sore mouth, and a pelham which was a complete disaster, as he hated the curb action. :-/

 

[JenHunt]

patches, I was lead to believe that gags apply poll pressure, encouraging the horse to lower said camel-like appendage also known as the head.

I had similar problems with Ron. when he came he wouldn't jump, but was hunted in a pelham. he hated it, and kept on going up.
so I switched to a dutch 3 ring gag. he hated that more than the pelham and jammed his head down and naffed off with me when we were moving, or reared with me when we were stood.
so i tried a myler combination short shank, with an 04 mouth. much better, but like someone else said, he learnt to get round it.
so I tried a douible bridle. JOB DONE.

he likes it, he respects it, and I now have control. I come home full of it and not torn to shreds. The only down side is that I only have a sliding cheek weymouth so I have to use latex bandage to stop it nipping him.

I can ride on the bradoon rein when he's being nice, and when he's not the weymouth is there to catch him.

It's worth a try.

 

[Patches]

Have a look at this:

http://www.shiresequestrian.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=808&cat=572&page=9

It's what I am now SJing in, but lec's old horse hunts in one. It seems to stop them setting through the necka nd jaw, which is my problem when SJ in a snaffle, rather than him being strong, which isn't the issue.

They're only cheap - Surrey Equestrian is the cheapest place, sot me under £15 with fast delivery, so you won't lose much by trying it. It is my new favourite bit, he is weirdly far more sensible to hack in it than he ever was in the pelham!

___________________________________

Will definitely add that to my list of possibles to try. ))

Perhaps I should give the Myler MB42 a try out, seeing as I have it on trial! It's supposed to solve just this sort of problem. It looks like a snaffle though, and I keep looking at it and thinking "Pfffff....some good that will be!"

 

[spacefaer]

Try a Kineton noseband with what3ever bit you're using - stops them leaning down on the bit

also, try bridging your reins so that you can "set" them at a length you want, not the one she wants! works for jockeys

 

[Patches]

How do you steer around fields, fences etc with bridged reins?

 

[skewby]

QR

This is my horse's exact trick. Sorry if I've missed it elsewhere in the post, but what type is she? See my sig, my horse is Suffolk x and built heavily on the forehand. He ran off with me for years, we are famous in the county for it

With the help of an excellent instructor, I have learned exactly what he is doing, and how to scupper him. Basically, when he starts saying "I want to go faster" (which is all the flipping time) and I say "no", he goes quiet then does this massive YANK down which is designed to tip me forward in the saddle. Once I am forward, I can't prevent him from shunting all his weight into his massive front end and scurrying off like a lunatic.

This shift in my weight can be quite imperceptible - but it is there, and he knows it gives him the upper hand. I have learned to prepare for this shenanigan by sitting DEEP in the saddle, putting my leg on (it says, "get OFF my hand") and straightening my back. Then, when he yanks, he simply pulls me deeper into his back and thereby, basically yanks against himself.

It's taken me yonks to perfect it, and even now he still catches me out on the odd occasion and I have to think about what I'm doing. In the early days, taking one rein tight, and putting a fist into his neck in front of the saddle, helped me to stay straight and strong in the plate. Now, I tend to lift my hands up slightly - to say, "come back up here".

Bit wise, I did a lot of schooling as he ran through everything. Now I do everything in a snaffle, mildly exciting stuff like fun rides in a pelham with two reins, and hunt in a double (see sig - snaffle for everything but you can see I've got two reins in the hunting pic). The curb really helps me out as I can pre-empt the tug down if I am clever, and put the curb on (with loads of leg of course) to get him on his hocks, meaning he can't/won't do it anyway.

Best of luck, I am off out tomorrow and it will be, as ever, a test. I am at the conscious competence stage, hoping for unconscious competence to arrive at any moment!

Oh and also saw your post earlier about riding with a pelham with roundings - I believe, from my extensive bit research, that this renders the pelham a very mild bit and you may find it makes no difference whatsoever, as I did.

 

[skewby]

I can ride on the bradoon rein when he's being nice, and when he's not the weymouth is there to catch him.

It's worth a try.

Yes, completely agree with this. What I love about my pelham and double, is that I can teach nice behaviour! I am extremely careful to stay on the bradoon when he's sweet. I also use spurs, many people question why as they know the horse is terribly forward going. But I use them to stop, not to go! They help me to lift his belly should I need to, and to get him back off his forehand. It's only when he's leaning that I have any issues. And what I love about them, just like the curb (in the pelham or double) is that they are only there when he even thinks about being rude.

 

[KatB]

Goddy was exactly the same as this. He was best in a universal with a leather curb strap. I tried LOADS of other bits, and this was the best by far

 

[Patches]

You are describing exactly what my friend witnessed on Sunday.

I have tried to work on it with my instructor, but we cannot replicate her doing it for her to then advise me how to stop it. It only happens out hunting.

She is a lightweight, I guess, cob? Not sure she qualifies as middleweight. She is indeed built on her forehand, although we've done alot to improve her way of going on the flat.

I keep hearing reference to a double and two reins. The problem is I just don't feel confident with the idea of two reins. I could perhaps do with having some practice. I just worry I might cling to the curb rein if I can't stop her.

Your reply makes perfect sense and the tips are really good. I think I'm going to shorten my stirrups more and sit when she pulls me, instead of keeping a two point seat.

I have two bits to try this Sunday.....I think I might need your good luck wishes!