Horse feed advice please...bad feet, wrong grass, allergies!!

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Littlemissmerlin

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Hi all,
a little advice pleases would be great. My horse is turned out 24/7. He suffers with allergies. So find this helps. He has 2 paddocks. Day paddock full off ex dairy pasture (lots of clover) (he is is a small section, and I introducuced this slowly) night paddock is really rubbish grass that he doesn't touch (not a lot if grass, but defo some there, also very small area) he has 1 feed a day -
small handful of highfi light chaff (next bag is the molasses free one)
Small handful of fibre cubes
correct amount of Kevin bacon hoof supp
protexin gut balancer
naff super flex
breatheasy supp
i give him a large slice of haylage every evening when he is in night paddock
he is in light work 2-4 hacks a week!
so.....he seems footy. His feet are bad hence the kb supp. Also I think he is having too much sugar in diet? How can I reduce sugar? Shall I change is supps? I can't feed him hay, even if soaked he gets runny nose! Will the sugars in the grass reduce? What else can I do? Thanks for reading :-)
 
Has he always been footy?
Do you use a farrier to trim?
Which fibre cubes do you use as they are often mollassed?

I would be inclined to stop using the kevin bacon stuff as it interferes with the natural hoof balance. Think more about getting the hoof sorted from the inside. If he were mine then Id put him on either speedi beet or fast fibre and some pro hoof adding linseed if he drops weight.

Obviously the dairy pasture isn't great but having said that my mare is on fertilised grass and she hasn't been footy at all this summer. You could make up a track system or strip graze in the field too tosee if that helps. The sugars in the grass are I think being a bit strange at the moment because of the warm weather but it wont be long before the grass stops growing and winter will be on us so that might help.

I feed thunderbrook which I have found makes a huge difference to my mare in so many ways including the footiness. She went from hobbling over stones to sound on everything within a week so you could try that. It look expensive initially but a bag lasts forever. My girl goes through a bag every two months but it would last you longer as you have a pony I would imagine. If you feed this then you wouldn't need the protexin as it has all that in it.
 
Thanks for that info. He hasn't always been footy. I haven't had him that long (4months) and in that time he has had to adjust to our grass. Can I get those feeds from most feed stores? Also how would I make the transition with introducing different feeds? And would I need chaff?
 
It look expensive initially but a bag lasts forever. My girl goes through a bag every two months but it would last you longer as you have a pony I would imagine. If you feed this then you wouldn't need the protexin as it has all that in it.[/QUOTE]
He is a 16.2 wb. Also he has shoes done every 5 weeks. Being done this Monday coming!
 
Grass sugars are highest between 11am and 6pm. Would you consider swapping your turnout arrangements, so that he's on the longer grass during the night?
 
hehe sorry I don't know why I thought he was a pony!! Ive been reading too many posts! getting them confused! Oh and I also assumed he was barefoot because you said he was footy. Id be really concerned if you are noticing hes footy in shoes. Normally shoes mask the problem. Im not really experienced enough to comment here but perhaps if you don't get the help you need regarding the footiness with shoes on then it might be worth writing another post titled 'footy in shoes' because there are a lot of knowledgeable people here that coul point you in the right direction.

Regarding the food. You can normally get fast fibre or speedibeet from the local feed shop but the pro hoof you will have to get from progressive earth on ebay. They are very reliable and fast. If you wanted to try the thunderbrook then you can only get that through their website online.
I would just do as you normally would with feeding and phase in the new gradually. So add to what you are feeding now slowly and build up over a two week period so that by the end you are feeding new stuff. Also if hes a poor doer then maybe get some micronized linseed to add to the mix as that will not only benefit the hooves but will safetly keep weight in those cold winter months. You can get a 20kg bag from Charnwood milling online or you can ask your local feed shop to see if they would order you some as that would save you postage costs. A bag goes a really long way and its really easily digested too.
 
Re the chaff. I don't feed it because its normally full of molasses and rubbish. I know some people like to add it in so that horsey slows down but my girl doesn't gorge so haven't felt the need for it.
 
Unless the pony is underweight, I'd stop all the extra feedstuffs, (except forage) including supplements and swap the grazing round. Ponies rarely need extra feed. Remember Section As have been bred to live up Welsh mountains with very sparse grazing. If he is shod and footy, you really need to ask the advice of either your farrier or vet or both asap.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Unless the pony is underweight, I'd stop all the extra feedstuffs, (except forage) including supplements and swap the grazing round. Ponies rarely need extra feed. Remember Section As have been bred to live up Welsh mountains with very sparse grazing. If he is shod and footy, you really need to ask the advice of either your farrier or vet or both asap.
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He isn't a pony. He is a 16.2 warm blood! He does the supps though. So need to feed him something.
 
Now I'm mis leading everybody else with the pony thing! 'Smashes hand on forehead'. Sorry op and to everybody else, she has a 16.2hh warm blood! Hehe!
 
Well I've just been to feed store and now even more confused. Forage wise I have a plan. Swap paddocks - day to night. And I didn't know that I can get Timothy haylage instead of rye grass. So have stocked up on that ( he's doesn't have much, just a token when being groomed and when he's in small paddock)
Feed - she said feed as normal and add biotin. Now when I mentioned the sugars affect his feet. She said there isn't much sugars in his feed!!???? I mentioned changing the kb balancer for p/earth and fast fibre. She said not to bother. Arrrrrgggghhhh. All this feed stuff is confusing. What does fast fibre look like? Is it a pellet? He is having feed store own brand fibre cubes at the mo. She said there is no sugar it molasses???!!
 
claribella said:
hehe sorry I don't know why I thought he was a pony!! Ive been reading too many posts! getting them confused! Oh and I also assumed he was barefoot because you said he was footy. Id be really concerned if you are noticing hes footy in shoes. Normally shoes mask the problem. Im not really experienced enough to comment here but perhaps if you don't get the help you need regarding the footiness with shoes on then it might be worth writing another post titled 'footy in shoes' because there are a lot of knowledgeable people here that coul point you in the right direction.

Regarding the food. You can normally get fast fibre or speedibeet from the local feed shop but the pro hoof you will have to get from progressive earth on ebay. They are very reliable and fast. If you wanted to try the thunderbrook then you can only get that through their website online.
I would just do as you normally would with feeding and phase in the new gradually. So add to what you are feeding now slowly and build up over a two week period so that by the end you are feeding new stuff. Also if hes a poor doer then maybe get some micronized linseed to add to the mix as that will not only benefit the hooves but will safetly keep weight in those cold winter months. You can get a 20kg bag from Charnwood milling online or you can ask your local feed shop to see if they would order you some as that would save you postage costs. A bag goes a really long way and its really easily digested too.
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I didn't know if I'm being paranoid, as I worry about lami and his feet. But he's been a bit clumsy with his feet. So I presumed that's being footy. He's not lame and is turning fine. How do you know if horse is footy?
 
OP - biotin, also known as vitamin H is a water soluble B vitamin. A horse with a healthy hind gut rarely has problem with B vitamins as these are produced as a byproduct of hind gut fermentation. The Kevin Bacon supplement does not sound good. a) ingredients and full spec are not published b) high levels of calcium included - all very well if you live in an area with low calcium and don't feed alfalfa or beet, but if you do it's easy to have too much calcium.
 
Yes it is an absolute minefield isn't it! Very confusing! A few things:

1) congrats on making the decision with the field. I've just spent th last few weeks looking at joint supp and I'v flitted from one to the next nd back to the other feeling overwhelmed by how many there are so now I've come to a decision, I feel like I deserve an award, so again well done on making that decision.

2) biotin is very old school concerning feet and agree with what the above poster has said.

3) I'm not dissing your feed merchant but it's actually really surprising at what contains sugar and starch and a lot of feed companies aren't upfront about the amount of rubbish they throw into their feeds. I've heard that a lot of feed companies can buy their way into a lami stamp on there feed bag. If you are going to continue feeding fibre nuts then I'd be wanting to see exactly what's in it and keeping the sugar/starch percentage to under 7 percent is a general rule of thumb. To say there is no sugar in thm makes me suspicious because even fast fibre has SOME starch and sugar in. Might be worth just swapping to fast fibre anyway.

4) fast fibre is a soak. So you get the pellets and soak them and they fluff to three times the size. Great over winter as you can add warm water so nice and warming. Linseed is a powder that's so so low in sugar and the horses just lov it. Great for feet coat and many other things.

5) I would describe footiness as being tentative but my girl would also trip du to foot sensitivity. The change to a barefoot diet I'll only strengthen and harden the hooves so itts well worth doing and you never know, you might consider barefoot in the future which is so beneficial for the hooves themselves. Prob one of the reasons that your horse has bad feet is tht it's been in shoes for so long. Shoes don't tend to do the feet any favours.

Hope I haven't confused you any further. Kee asking if you are and i and others, I'm sure will keep helping.
 
claribella said:
Yes it is an absolute minefield isn't it! Very confusing! A few things:

1) congrats on making the decision with the field. I've just spent th last few weeks looking at joint supp and I'v flitted from one to the next nd back to the other feeling overwhelmed by how many there are so now I've come to a decision, I feel like I deserve an award, so again well done on making that decision.

2) biotin is very old school concerning feet and agree with what the above poster has said.

3) I'm not dissing your feed merchant but it's actually really surprising at what contains sugar and starch and a lot of feed companies aren't upfront about the amount of rubbish they throw into their feeds. I've heard that a lot of feed companies can buy their way into a lami stamp on there feed bag. If you are going to continue feeding fibre nuts then I'd be wanting to see exactly what's in it and keeping the sugar/starch percentage to under 7 percent is a general rule of thumb. To say there is no sugar in thm makes me suspicious because even fast fibre has SOME starch and sugar in. Might be worth just swapping to fast fibre anyway.

4) fast fibre is a soak. So you get the pellets and soak them and they fluff to three times the size. Great over winter as you can add warm water so nice and warming. Linseed is a powder that's so so low in sugar and the horses just lov it. Great for feet coat and many other things.

5) I would describe footiness as being tentative but my girl would also trip du to foot sensitivity. The change to a barefoot diet I'll only strengthen and harden the hooves so itts well worth doing and you never know, you might consider barefoot in the future which is so beneficial for the hooves themselves. Prob one of the reasons that your horse has bad feet is tht it's been in shoes for so long. Shoes don't tend to do the feet any favours.

Hope I haven't confused you any further. Kee asking if you are and i and others, I'm sure will keep helping.
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What a fab reply. Thank you! :-) I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it all so mind boggling!
I threw away the bag for fibre cubes. But I'm sure it had basic, plain packaging. So probs doesn't have much info.
So.... Im going to stop kb stuff, fibre cubes and chaff? Shall I keep my supps as normal and introduce fast fibre, linseed and either p-e or thunderbrook?
 
There's a couple of ways you can do it.
1) if you decide on thunderbrook base mix then that's a complete feed. It contains everything for gut health (pre pro biotic) along with magnesium and linseed(great for feet) manganese (which is in a lot of joint supp). It's totally organic and contains no fillers. Check out their website says it all on there. So with this I would just feed his breath easy supp and his super flex.

2) if you decide on fast fibre and linseed then keep your supps but add pro hoof. I've just had a look at protexin and it contains alfalfa as the base. I'm not one hundred percent sure but generally Alfafa isn't great as its high in calcium so it might be worth looking at changing to another pre and pro biotic when you've finished your pot. Something like brewers yeast and yeas sacc would work.

If you decide on the second lot then

1) it is a lot of faffing around but it kept weight on my mare last winter but I found that it did cost a fair bit hence switching to thunderbrook. I'm not sure how well my mare will do on thunderbrook through this winter but we shall see. I shall add in some fast fibre if she needs it.

2) with the linseed. If your horse is a good doer then only feed about a quarter to a half of a cup a day. It's high in oils so good for weight gain maintenance. I feed about a cup to two cups during the winter because my girl doesn't keep weight very well. If you feed much more than that then you have to start looking at supplementing ith vitamin e so gets a bit more complicated.

Obviously what works for one might not work for the other so you might have to tweak in places but hopefully this is a start for you. Id recommend looking at threads on here about barefoot diet. They are really helpful and even though your horse is in shoes, a barefoot diet is So beneficial.
 
Thank you so much for your clear advice. I think I'm going to try the thunderbrooks stuff! How would I introduce it? I've been looking at other barefoot posts! Really interesting that a lot of balancer and feeds contain so much crap!!!
 
I just spoke to the lovely lady at thunderbrooks. She gave me some great advice. And I'm really keen to start feeds. Only problem is she thinks I should take my horse of rich grass. And I really don't have any suitable grazing for 6weeks for him only to be in (small paddock not big enough). Every other field we have is the same rich, clover grass. Also she said to only feed him hay. But I can't as even if I soak he gets allergies :-/
 
Yes once you start researching its pretty unbelievable what they throw in. That's why I like thunderbrook because its pure and simple. I really hope it works for you. I saw so many changes within a week of my mare being on it.

Ah Im glad you had a good chat. Ive not spoken to Debbie myself but lots of people say how helpful she is and how knowledgable she seems to be. Did she explain how little you need to feed? It felt so strange at first but now im used to it and my girl is actually looking chunky despite normally being a poor doer and not being on much grass.

In an ideal world then yes you should do as she suggested but unfortunately us horse owners have compromise. Is there any way you could set up a track sytem where you are atleast that way your horse would be getting less rich stuff and you could feed haylage in the field or even strip graze?

RE the haylage there is a difference between the haylage you can use. I was just reading a thread on here, I think its still up either in this room or the tack room? Have a look, something about timothy haylage and rye haylage. One of the posters wrote that rockly farm (a barefoot rehabilation farm)use haylage as that's all they can get but its one of the two I mentioned an I cant remember which one is the best. Be worth trying to find it. Literally I read it today or yesterday so the thread is still fresh.

Just saw that you are in cornwall, im just across the bridge in devon!
 
Just looked at the haylage thing and they are saying stay away from rye grass haylage but go for something like meadow haylage? I only quickly scanned it so you might find more if you have a bit more time to read
 
Horsehage do a high fibre haylage which would be lower sugars than either the ryegrass one (steer clear) or the Timothy (nice and palatable but still higher sugars than the high fibre). It's the one with the navy blue and white packet you want.

Don't dismiss chaff, many brand name ones do have molasses but there are quite a few molasses free ones, Topspecs Topchoplite is one, and there's a Hifi molasses free. Or you could see if horse can avoid allergies by using plain oat straw chop, this is lower sugar and starch than unsoakedd hay and also gives them a long satisfying chew.
If you could find something like that for the horse to chew on I would be straight away getting them off that rich grass, their symptoms are telling you clearly that they are not coping and for that to happen when shod means not good. Halleys sell the oat straw chop and deliver nationwide, min order only 2 bags.

(personally I would also be taking the shoes off at least over the winter to allow them to recover a bit but understand that might be too far a step)
 
The problem with dairy grass is farmers usually fertilise, and fertiliser isn't great for horses! However if you have no choice, i would go for Dengie hi fi molasses free, the thunderbrook base mix ( mine has cushings and its fab) add the magnesium oxide ( progressive earth on ebay), helps enormously with feet and micronised linseed ( charnwoods on internet, very good delivery, quality and price). I would get rid of all other supplements....haylage, the best one with low sugars is the blue bag horsehage (??) rather than the local suppliers...look on the lamintis site for more info...My lad as i said has cushings and developed LGL back in june..after starting him on the pills and altering diet, he is bright, shiny and his feet ( with a very good farriers help) are great, plus a bare-ish paddock, strip grazed...good luck
 
So....I've ordered the thunderbrook base mix, gut restore and equicarb. Debbie said that the equicarb will help with the toxins in the rich grass. I'm going to mix this with small handful of hifi molasses free. I'm excited for it to arrive :-) he is and has always been strip grazed in rich paddock. But in the past 2 weeks is was so warm and wet that I think the flush in the grass has made his poops loose. But poo picking today and he seems better. The farrier is coming on Monday so will discuss his feet. I would love to get him barefoot. But I think that's a but keen this moment in time. Spoked to my husband and we are going to re seed paddock next March with correct pasture mix :-) but until then I will have to cope with what I have!!!
 
Excellent! I really hope he does well on it and you get on ok. Hopefully you will see an improvement in the feet as the months go by. As soon as my girl went on it her poos hardened up so hopefully youll notice a big difference there. My girl cant cope with fertilised grass and coliced this year in it as we moved to new yard and because I was the new kid on the block I didn't have much of a say on fertilising. I ended up paying for the field to be fertilised then I had a huge vet bill because my girl coliced on it. Boy didn't I wish Id spoke up as I knew it wouldn't do the horses any good. Hey ho! She restricted now and has hay and her thunderbrook and shes happy:) Pm me let me know how you are getting on with it. The consistency is a bit weird, gooey and sticky but my mare is fussy and loves the stuff.
 
Couldn't be bothered to read the rest. I have a 15h mare prone to weight gain, slightly insulin resistant and last year suffered with bad guts to the point I couldn't put her on any grass even on double dose of protexin gut supp and she also had really thin soles that would get punctured and bruised by tiny stones. I also have a 13h new forest gelding who is prone to lami. This year they are on different grazing for a start, non fertilised, and have been fed all year on fast fibre, micronised linseed and magnesium oxide powder, with free access to himalayan salt licks (don't know if that makes any difference but they enjoy it) when either one had raised pulses I increased mag-ox, when they appeared to be gaining weight I decreased the linseed but they have gone through the whole year sound and healthy. They haven't been on the mag-ox for a month now because I ran out and they're coping fine without it, they had more over spring and summer
 
Just a quick update. I have decided to completely remove my horse from the rich clover grass. And keep him in the small bare paddock with ad lib Timothy haylage. After a chat with vet. Certain symptoms (stiffness, lethargic, spooky, runny poos, runny nose, grumpy) he thinks could all be related to too much clover and rich grass (build up of toxins) exactly what Debbie from thunderbrooks said!! (She knows her stuff) so hopefully in a few weeks with the new routine and new feed. He should be feeling and looking much better. Farrier came today! He is not footy or lame. Just very stiff! P.s. Also order mag ox and micronised linseed to add to feed too!!! Hopefully he likes it!!
 
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Brilliant:) Just be careful with adding more linseed and mag ox. There is already enough mag ox in the thunderbrook so effectively you will be paying for your horse to poop it out and with the linseed, in the the thunderbrook it is balanced with vitamin e to just the right amount so when you start adding in more linseed then you need add in more vitamin e. Alternatively you could just feed another scoop of the base mix as all levels would be correct then. I hope that makes sense.
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My girls a bit stiff but that's her age. Ive just started her on equimins flexijoint and after being on it a week im already notice a difference in her and her swollen fetlock is slowly going down! Really pleased!
 
claribella said:
Brilliant:) Just be careful with adding more linseed and mag ox. There is already enough mag ox in the thunderbrook so effectively you will be paying for your horse to poop it out and with the linseed, in the the thunderbrook it is balanced with vitamin e to just the right amount so when you start adding in more linseed then you need add in more vitamin e. Alternatively you could just feed another scoop of the base mix as all levels would be correct then. I hope that makes sense.
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My girls a bit stiff but that's her age. Ive just started her on equimins flexijoint and after being on it a week im already notice a difference in her and her swollen fetlock is slowly going down! Really pleased!
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Ok. I thought to help with condition and weight it was ok to add more linseed. I think over the past few days I have read so much info I'm going nuts. Haha! That really interesting as I've always fed naff superflex for joints. I'll have a look at the equimins one. Why did u go for that one?
 
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