Horse has been on loan 2 months and is now broken.

[Cobsndogs]

I'm quite worried about him, but also a bit cross with the loaner. He went on loan to someone on the same yard 2 months ago. I had been thinking of selling him, but when she lost her horse decided to let him go on loan. There was some quibbling about loan agreement as she didn't want responsibilty for vets fees other than routine stuff like vacs. I wrote this into agreement along with any need for the vet had to be discussed with me first, other than obvious emergency situations. He has been out competing BD, as recently as Sunday, and doing well. So imagine my suprise yesterday afternoon when I got a call from the vet to say he was up at the practice, and putting a plan of action to me. She had taken him up as felt he was slightly unlevel on his off fore and had heat in his hooves. Vet then presented me with, he thought he was nearly 2/5 lame up front, felt his feet were warm, but he hadn't responded to the pincer things, he also felt he had slightly swollen fetlocks behind, a peculiar hock action and was incredibly sensitive in his back. He asked had I ever bothered to have his back checked, to which I had to say "I have had him 6 years and he has never been unsound in any way (Not that I don't understand that things do crop up), I have his back checked every 6-12 months by a Mctimoney Chiro depending on workload and her advice at the time, he also has a check at annual vacs, plus his saddle was fitted and is regularly checked, amd he has a massage pad, and no we have never had any signs of these issues" Probably feeling a bit defensive at this point having not expected this. He then suggested that he was left overnight and I came up in morning while he nerve blocked all four limbs, then x-rayed them all and his back, but his initial thought was that he may may be sore on front due to hard ground and was poss compensating by resting more weight on back end. I said I just wanted to have a quick conversation with my husband, who is away at work. Then phoned him back and agreed for him to stay as we had decided we wanted to get to bottom of it, for him to say loaner didn't want to wait and had taken him home again. He then seemed to change track on the urgency of it all and suggested we rested him for a few days, trot him up over the weekend and phone him next week.
Along with all this, I'm quite annoyed with loaner that at no point did she contact me about taking him up to the vets,(we are on the same yard and see each other every day) and to this point she still hasn't spoken to me. I also have to say I have found the whole experience of having him on loan really stressful, and wish I hadn't gone down this path.
I went up to yard this morning, and loaner wasn't there, I got my others in, and then went back for him, so he wasn't left on his own. All feet were cold to the touch.
The plan I have come up with is, to take him to the vet we usually use in the practice on Monday for full investigation, and if he finds probs that need treatment etc, to put him on a full/rehabilitation livery somewhere local (he was loaned due to time issues). I'm assuming the loaner won't be wanting him if he is off work, as she said to me at the begining she would want to give him back if there was ever anything wrong with him, also I'm not sure I want to continue with it anyway.
Another problem I now face, is that I am on a totally diy yard, and all livery services that I use/pay for are provided by the person who has my horse on loan, and I'm sure she's not going to want to continue if the loan ends, so I also feel a change of yard coming on, which is a shame as we really like it there.
Any advice, and vibes for my poorly horse too please.
Sorry so long, feeling a bit doomed.

 

[Kaylum]

Well tobehonest she has taken the P155 about not paying for vets fees. If you take a horse on loan you pay everything and if he has an accident or injury whilst in her care she should pay and not just leave him for you to deal with. Sorry but this is irresponsible horse loaning. I take it he is insured?

 

[Roody2]

Almost too much to take in immediately! So you had no idea that the loaner was taking the horse to the vets? Is he insured or are you going to have to foot the whole bill?

I would have a good chat with the loaner to find out all her reasons for taking the horse to the vet before you decide on a plan of action with regards to any rehabilitation.

 

[Mithras]

Is he a good dressage horse and are these issues being raised now because she wants a free horse to compete on at a certain level? Theres a difference between a horse being sound for hacking and low level competition and regular dressage and dressage schooling. I was just waiting for you to mention the "precautionary steroid injections in the hocks".

It sounds as if you are in danger of losing control over the situation. Never loan a horse to someone who won't agree to pay, or insure for, vets' bills. If he is unsound, I'd just turn him out over the summer and see if all these "issues" go away of their own accord. Maybe its the way she's working him. Does she use draw reins or one of those lunging contraptions to hold them in a certain shape?

 

[Paddy Irish]

Hmmm You would have thought that after making all those demands in the first place , and after specifically being asked to do so by you , the loaner would have consulted you first before taking this horse up to the vets , as it clearly isn't an emergency? I don't know of any loan agreement where the loaner can use/ care for the horse in anyway they see fit and then dump it back on you when something goes wrong. The loaner obviously isn't as committed to this horses welfare as she should. If she is also your YO , I think she's abused her position by using your horse for her own ends , and if it - hopefully - just turns out that she has done too much work on hard ground and just jarred his feet/fetlocks then I would still be having him back off her , as she clearly doesn't understand the importance of limiting exercise on hard ground. If you have your horse back and have to move him to another yard then i would be shipping the others out as well , although maybe this might be too hasty , maybe she's just changed her mind and wants to give him up anyway? If you and she are happy with you being at the yard then maybe just move this horse and then tell her your going to sell him after all , she's not interested in buying him so i can't see that she'll have a problem with this..

 

[9tails]

This sounds as fishy as a mackerel sandwich. I would suggest that loaner is pulling a fast one, as Mithras suspects too. Shame about the yard jobs that the loaner does, but I'm on a yard where there are at least 6 people offering the same jobs. Sure there isn't anybody else to do the jobs?

And this:

I'm assuming the loaner won't be wanting him if he is off work, as she said to me at the begining she would want to give him back if there was ever anything wrong with him, also I'm not sure I want to continue with it anyway.

What a charmer, no horse of mine would be in the care of such a character.

 

[Lady La La]

So.. you agreed to loan out your BD competition horse to someone who wont be paying any vets fees, and will be giving him straight back if he ever encounters a problem?

Really?

 

[pinklilly]

I would take the horse back. I have just had a bad experience loaning a horse out, she was injured in the field and loaner has basically abandoned horse, so currently on full livery at the yard she was on while I found somewhere to keep her ( I have stabling to use at home but no grazing and she needs a month off in field ). Also wanted her out with one other horse which isn't going to be taken out to be ridden so I am turning out my 4 yo with her which I was wanting to start work with.

So come to the conclusion I won't loan again as it's more hassle than it's worth, I'd rather horses stood in the field doing nothing. People just don't appreciate it when they have a horse to compete with, tack, rugs.

 

[Tinypony]

Simple question, does he seem lame or sore now?
I'd ditch the loaner straight away, she was supposed to contact you if he wasn't well and didn't, and didn't even bother to speak to you when she was at the vet's with him. That is outrageous.
Personally I wouldn't panic, I don't know about a full workup at the vets, I'd be inclined to ask the regular vet to come and see him at home first, if he's seeming a lot better today.

 

[Lady La La]

So come to the conclusion I won't loan again as it's more hassle than it's worth, I'd rather horses stood in the field doing nothing. People just don't appreciate it when they have a horse to compete with, tack, rugs.

I find that quite sad. It's a shame you've had a bad experience but please dont tarr us all with the same brush.

I loan a horse, a super little TB.. I had two horses of my own at the time I took her on & she arrived with a bridle and one rug. I am responsible for all costs, insurance, vets fees etc & I bought my own saddle for her.
She's been with me a year now and we have recently made the decision to buy her. She's a fabulous little horse and she has a fabulous home with us.

 

[ihatework]

She doesn't sound like someone I'd want to loan my horse to.

I'd suggest to give her notice on the loan, give the horse some time off and see if he comes right, and tell her she is paying the vets bill as the terms of your loan agreement are that you pay only if having given prior permission.

 

[ihatework]

So come to the conclusion I won't loan again as it's more hassle than it's worth, I'd rather horses stood in the field doing nothing. People just don't appreciate it when they have a horse to compete with, tack, rugs.

How sad that you think like this. I have loaned horses out and had horses on loan and only had 1 bad experience (in which case I turned up and removed my horse from the place a fornight after the horse arrived). But then it really is the owners responsibility to ensure they find the right loaner and after the horse has gone to make sure they keep a close eye.

 

[Cobsndogs]

Yes, he is insured, but I usually like to work out costs of things before running to insurance myself, and then decide if it's just a one off type situation is it best for us to pay rather than risk exclusions for potential future probs. But I'm not sure if the vet just jumped in with everything yesterday.
He is only competing at novice at mo, with the plan to go up to elementary soon, and her aim was to be doing medium with him.
I suppose I went for the loan, as I have had him over 6 years since he was 4, but stopped riding him myself when I damaged my back, and he is very sharp, and has some explosive spooks. Then my husband took him over, he did some tests to tick him over but mainly jumped him, but then his other horse missed out, hence decision to do something with him. Because the loaner had been doing their livery for the past 2.5 years I felt I knew her well enough to trust him to her, and she had exercised him in the past when husband away. I think I agreed to the vet bill thing, because I had decided that I would that have any authority over vets,desicion making etc. I also thought the bit about giving him back on her part came on the back of her losing her own horse to arthritis following a summer of vets investigating (same vet actually) all sorts of things and her having to foot the bill as no insurance, and I thought it was a rebound thing, and not actually in the loan agreement. I put in there the ususal she could end with a months notice, as could I take him back if not happy with any areas concerning his care .

 

[Roody2]

Do you think she and the vet are being a little overcautious because of what happened with her previous horse?
No excuse for not talking to you first but it could explain the raft of suggestions from the vet and the way it seemed like they had dived in to extensive investigation.

Is your horse actually lame or is it more of a gut feeling from the rider?

It does sound like you need to sit down and have a good chat with the loaner to sort all this out.

 

[AmyMay]

End the agreement. And make sure she has the vet bill thus far.

As for the DIY issue - why do you have to move?

 

[skychick]

I am responsible for all costs, insurance, vets fees etc & I bought my own saddle for her.

Snap!

I got my mare on loan last august. She is treated by me and by her owner as if i own her. I had all her gear with her but her saddle had started not fitting her so i bought her a new one yesterday.
As if she was my own horse i am responsible for all of her costs and am more than happy with that. Despite her having had an injury in the past, if that flared up again it would be up to me to take on the costs to sort her out.
I think its disgusting that someone thinks they can take on a horse knowing that if it gets injured they just hand it back and someone else picks up the bill.

 

[Kenzo]

So the horse has gone from being sound and competed up until this last weekend to having lameness investigations all ready just because of a warm hoof and being a biff iffy on the offside, could be a number of things, but it could be something a bit of doctor green and field rest could sort out too, don't get me wrong yes things should be looked into but it's all very well and easy jumping in head first when someone else is footing the bill and without mentioning the first signs or symtoms and not contacting you to arrange for the vet etc, all seems a bit of a whirl wind with limited info to get your head round.

I'd take some time out to think about it before doing anything, talk it through with your own vet, let the loaner find something else before it all goes too far.

 

[Tinypony]

So the horse has gone from being sound and competed up until this last weekend to having lameness investigations all ready just because of a warm hoof and being a biff iffy on the offside, could be a number of things, but it could be something a bit of doctor green and field rest could sort out too, don't get me wrong yes things should be looked into but it's all very well and easy jumping in head first when someone else is footing the bill and without mentioning the first signs or symtoms and not contacting you to arrange for the vet etc, all seems a bit of a whirl wind with limited info to get your head round.

I'd take some time out to think about it before doing anything, talk it through with your own vet, let the loaner find something else before it all goes too far.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[AshTay]

Yes, he is insured, but I usually like to work out costs of things before running to insurance myself, and then decide if it's just a one off type situation is it best for us to pay rather than risk exclusions for potential future probs.

You do realise that even if you don't claim for a condition it will still be excluded on your next policy?

Agree with what has already been said about terminating the loan agreement and deciding for yourself if there's a problem and going from there. She sounds horrible.

 

[Mithras]

It all sounds so muddled - you and she seem to want different things (and the vet sounds like he is seeing £ signs!). Is she a skilled rider who is providing schooling that will get your horse to medium level? (if not, how is she going to get him there?) and thereby providing you with a benefit?

Or does she think you are providing her with a talented dressage horse and paying her to ride and compete it?

 

[Damnation]

I would take him back due to a breach in contract - not informing you that he is going to the vets.
TBH though alarm bells would have been going off in my head as she refused to even contribute to vets bills in the loan contract and would just give him back if he broke.

 

[Clippy]

Horrible situation, I feel very sorry for you and you were unlucky to get such a bad loaner, though it sounds to me like the signs were there right at the beginning

You know you have to end the loan agreement right now. You are not responsible for the vet fees, it is the person who calls and makes arrangements with the vet and it is she who will be invoiced so just forget about that. If anything is said about insurance and who pays the bill, just explain that your insurance company insists on prior notice before treatment except in an emergency, and that wasn't an emergency. If he were my horse and only recently lame with nothing very obvious, i'd be inclined to turn him out and give him a break. I expect she's been pounding him about on the hard ground and he's possibly jarred and stiff. Once we get some rain and the ground softens up, he may well trot up sound then you can give him some light work to harden him up again.

If you like the yard, try staying, it'll only be awkward for a short while. Besides, you're not the one in the wrong

 

[jeeve]

Ludo

I would be really annoyed. If the agreement was that you were responsible for vet fees, (and this seems a little unfair tbh), then under no circumstances (except emergency), should she have called the vet/consulted a vet, I assume you are meant to be paying these fees.

Even if she was footing the vet bill under the agreement, it would have been the right thing to discuss something like this with you before calling the vet. She did not wait for you to talk to OH before taking the horse home, and she still has not discussed the issue with you - that is just plain rude.

I think that if the agreement stated you were responsible for these costs, that it is implied you are also the one making the decision re any treatment, not her.

Under no circumstances would I allow this loan to be continued.

 

[Cobsndogs]

He's back in my care.

 

[Miss L Toe]

As the keeper of the horse and as the person who arranged the vet visit, you have no responsibility for the bills. Just tell the vet to send the bill to the loaner.
Move yards.
I had a problem with someone who sounds the same type, did extras for others, including transportation in a trailer with a rotten floor [insurance?]... you can imaging what happened next.
At the time I had taken over a large pen from another horse owner, I cleaned it out, and put down ten bales of shavings, it was empty one night, so she decided to move her horses in to it, I protested, as I was paying for the pen, the muck was left in, so I cleaned it out and left it outside her own stable (adjacent), then I put a padlock on the door when it was empty. Unbelievable what people will do.

 

[hayinamanger]

As the keeper of the horse and as the person who arranged the vet visit, you have no responsibility for the bills. Just tell the vet to send the bill to the loaner.
Move yards.
Unbelievable what people will do.

I'm with MrsD123 on this. The loaner had no right to take the horse to the vets for a workup without discussing it with you. Re-read whatever is in the agreement re veterinary involvement and, hopefully, you will find that she is in breech of the terms of the agreement. This will enable you to terminate the loan and also to inform the practice to send their a/c to the loanee.

 

[indie999]

Irresponsible loaner not to have informed you, at least she had the vet out. Wouldnt let her have the horse if you feel she has been negligent in anyway? Would want to know what she had been doing prior to going to the vets? Sounds v bizarre...??if I had a loan horse I would certainly inform the loaner I had got the vet out etc ie keep them informed up to date etc.

Dont let her have the horse back .Wierd.