Horse has to go - what would you do? Loooong...

i think pts , from what you have said moving him on would only pass his problems onto someone else, and also risk him being shunted around when his issues became as big a problem as they are to you. its difficult not to let sentiment take over, but it sounds like you have given him more chances than most would, and being honest, he is not even properly sound anyway
 
I used to ride at Suzanne's riding school in Harrow and they had a horse that could only be used for hacking. He used to buck in the school and they found out it was to do with soundness issues.

I also have never been to a riding school that DOESN'T have a horse that kicks! This or the trekking centre could really be an option. I would be a bit loathe to PTS myself, simply since his issues don't seem to make him impossible to re-home......just tricky.

Obviously you know his issues so perhaps start making some calls to get a feel for whether someone might take him.
 
When you got him and through the summer he was OK, so it isn't as if he has been difficult from the start. So when he was in regular work he was OK.

Trying to barge your daughter through the fence sounds like complete bad manners, ditto biting. He is being a prat and only has thoughts about Toffee. A gelding in love! Obviously he is one of these horses that needs constant work, not being dragged out of the a field once a week, which is bad news for you. Try a magnesium calmer, I think the NAF one is recommended. He might be a bit short of vits and minerals after being on restricted feed through the winter.

Can you play about with him in the field, not ride him for a couple of weeks when the weather improves, so he focuses more on you and what you want. Do some ground work tasks, like the Trec obstacles, leading over poles, tarpaulin, weave through barrels (look in Linda Tellington-Jones book for more ideas or Kelly Marks books) so he learns to concentrate on YOU and not what Toffee is doing.

Having something else to think about should improve him greatly. Then you could start riding him, and once started keep it up and do enough.

Of course, it depends on how much you like him and want to keep him. If you have fallen out of love then maybe your daughter doesn't want to spend this amount of time and effort.

Lots of horses are being complete prats at the moment, mine included. They are as fed up with this weather as we are, and spring is trying to come, so they feel the difference in day length and temperatures.
 
It sounds like he would be better on a big yard. The horse in my signature can't be kept on a small yard, he'd go beserk (he belongs to his breeders who have always kept him on a massive yard, think 50+ horses, all of this life. He went out on loan to someone before me to be kept with a shetland and kicked the stables down in terror and frustration, so was sent back. I kept him on a yard of ~16 horses initially which he also hated, and only settled once on current yard which was 30 horses when we moved here, now 26). Sounds like yours might be similar.

Without sounding rude, I think it really depends on how much (more) time and money you want to invest in this. It's possible that if you can get him on a big yard for a while, work on his general manners (mine was also vile to handle on a small yard - kicking, biting, rearing, bolting, barging - but is a dope now) with some groundwork (think Kelly Marks style, if you want to label it), then he might turn a corner in terms of handling. Maybe then look at loaning him to somewhere like a trekking centre where he gets plenty of work but all in straight lines, and as it's a loan, you would have ultimate control of his future.
 
i know this might not be possible for various reasons, but could you take him somewhere local and turn him out 24/7?? i know then you would have to pay for it and driving there etc would be a pain in the ar*e but then he would be out 24/7 and would be seperated from toffee?? i know its probably a ridiculous suggestion but maybe something you can consider? hope you are ok and things can some how be worked out xxx
 
Sooty I think the reason the horse is getting the sympathy is just that we can see how it would happen....... If I kept my older, well behaved welsh cob stabled at night in the weeks and only rode at the weekends I would have a fun ride....... We can't even contemplate doing that with mum's anglo.

He also has an annoying attachment to the mare..... but that is not his fault...... it is me who keeps him in that situation so I either deal with it or change it. He has a number of behaviours that he did not have when living in a herd of geldings. I don't blame him for being a pain in the arse about it and having separation problems when I only give him a herd of 2 where he is top dog and therefore responsible.... its only natural albeit sometimes frustrating.

I would imagine that the blood bank horses have to be reasonable to handle to get the blood.

If you have decided that you cannot keep or work with.. and only you know this horse and what he is truely like, I think that it is just that as you had said he was better in the summer that people are suggesting changing his winter routine might help.

Good luck with what you decide
 
Has your vet considered ulcers, which could be caused due to his stressy behaviour, cribbing etc it is worth looking into.

A great place we found for one seriously nutty chestnut mare that would be very unpredictable, was Hacking with a Difference in Guildford. This is a place that hacks straight out onto forest land, and is for people that have had their own horses, but due to work cant, they take difficult horses as clients dont want just plods. They all live out, are very well looked after and guaranteed their future.

The mare we had used to buck, rear and bolt, and is still difficult but their riders love her, as she is not just a plod.
 
I'd try to loan him to a trekking centre or riding school that does lots of hacking. They are out there, I've been to a few as ours doesn't really have much hacking.

Most probably wouldn't be averse to a loan as they don't have to invest capital and as such would be more willing to take something that isn't ideal.

He'd probably be better in a big herd too.
 
He could do with going somewhere that is geldings only, I wonder if that would sort his temp out. I really do not think having him stabled at night should incite such a bad change in behaviour - ours are stabled 24/7 in winter (and not just in my big stables) and they do not become nasty thugs.

I do hope you get it sorted xxx
 
I would change vet. Horses are not able to be 'nasty'.

I would look at this from the horses point of view, there is always a reason behind behaviour. Unlike us, they react they do not have any secret agenda's which is good because once we find the problem we can try and solve it.

Personally having two horses, and then a third doesn't work for every equine. They do become attached, they are herd animals so if only one member of their herd is present they will (if that is their nature) stick to them like glue, hence the term seperation anxiety. I just think there is an issue somewhere (or past issue) for his behaviour and he has become way too dependant on the mare through no fault of his own. He is not confident horse. You need to separate them, and mix him with others so he doesn't reform a bond with another lone horse.
 
QR Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. If things go according to plan, Fraser will be going back to a former owner who has offered him a retirement home.
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Ok so sounds like you may have sorted the problem but if not then i don't think he'd be that problematic to sell him to be honest. You already said he was fine when you got him and was fine when kept out 24/7. It sounds like it's more a clash of personalities/situation as opposed to the horse being 'nasty'. I don't really believe there are very many (if any) truly nasty horses out there.

Maybe this horse shouldn't be kept with mares at all. We have never had mares with our geldings having had particularly riggy, aggressive geldings. I did loan my riggy pony out, he was in a field on his own but the loanees then took on a mare, out her in the neighbouring field and in the morning found my pony in with her happy as larry! He had jumped the (very high!) fence to get to her. Now this is TOTALLY out of character for him, he just does not jump out of fields at all EVER! They put him back on his own and he did it again but this time cut his shoulder open. They ended up leaving him in with the mare to keep him happy and prevent him injuring himself more.

As said this was TOTALLY out of character and he has never in 15 years we've had him jumped any fence on his own, he is far too neurotic a pony. He too can kick (not at people) if horses invade his space. I think this horse of yours maybe just needs a totally different environment, one he can be kept out 24/7 and maybe only ever put out with geldings.

The bucking is another issue and to be honest any horse can have those 'moments' especially if they've been stabled and have not been worked enough.

I hope you manage to sort a place for him. I certainly don't feel he seems to warrant being PTS at this stage.
 
Sounds like you might have the best solution there. If not tho I'd def look at the trekking centre type places, my mare (she's 19 now) was an absolute pain in the backside when I first had her as had extreme seperation anxiety from my mum's pony! She was just a nightmare. Then I moved her to a big yard and she improved immesurably, then due to circumstances went to a slightly smaller yeard (about 15 horses instead of 30+) and instantly became a total nightmare again! Turned out this was 99% definately due to her being turned out and constantly 'pair bonded' with just one other mare....she jumped out of her stable twice when her 'friend' was taken off the yard without her. She just has to be in a herd of at least 4 horses....otherwise even now at her age she reverts to being such a pain....
 
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Well the most competent rider round here is a local event rider, and she has said she wouldn't ride him after seeing his behaviour when he ditched my daughter.

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Just a thought - my horse is ridden in the week by an experienced racing lass. An eventer friend won't ride him because he's simply too strong - however the girl from racing is totally unfazed by that. So for some it's horses for courses as it were.

But if your horse is a nasty b*st*rd to boot, his behaviour is deteriating and he has soundness issues - and all medical problems have been ruled out..... There's only one answer - the hunt kennels.

Ah, just read your previous post.

Nice outcome
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QR,

I have only read the first page ( as I am just coming to the end of lunch at work!).

If he were mine I would PTS.

I have had an unsound evil bugger who bit and kicked and cribbed etc and always said that if I couldn't keep him then for his safety and my peace of mind that I would PTS.

I was fortunate - when he colic'ed, the decision was made for me!
 
I havnt read all the replies so sorry if im repeating. Is there any friends you could send him away to so he can be seperated from your other horse for a while?

It seems the 24/7 thing is one of the main things. When will they be going back out all the time? Can you keep him till then and see what hes like then?

As you have said yourself charity is a none started, they're over full as it is and will only take rescue cases.

Possibly project horses as a hack for experienced rider, who prefers to live out? He could change once hes away from your other horse. How big is he?
 
You have my sympathies.

I have had issues with seperation anxiety between my gelding and my pony, they have never been completely resolved and my horse ended up being injured as a result.

If you don't have the facilities to seperate him from Toffee completely as in out of sight and earshot I would find him a home where he can be out 24/7 in a herd situation and hack out and hope the situation improves.

In your situation I would put him out on loan with a strict contract about what is a suitable environment/workload etc

I'd try getting the opinion of someone who deals with horses with behavioural issues both ridden and on the ground first as they may be able to help you get this horse to a place where finding a home for him is more acheiveable.
 
I saw on FB that he was going 'home', but having read this thread, I'm mortified.

If people are too scared to ride him, and if he is dangerous to handle, then he needs to be shot.

At the end of the day, he's a horse. There's no medical reason for his behaviour and it's not conductive to him living a happy life as a horse.

Even if his ex owner has him back, if for whatever reason the situation arose again, you've just passed the buck onto someone else. Which is exceedingly selfish.

We had one PTS for much less. Because at the end of the day, it's not fair on them to be passed around from pillar to post, never being touched cos no one trusts them.

If you have him PTS now he can go with the love of his life and go very happy. I couldn't live with myself if something happened to his ex-owner, or any other future owners, cos I was too selfish to have him PTS.
 
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I saw on FB that he was going 'home', but having read this thread, I'm mortified.

If people are too scared to ride him, and if he is dangerous to handle, then he needs to be shot.

At the end of the day, he's a horse. There's no medical reason for his behaviour and it's not conductive to him living a happy life as a horse.

Even if his ex owner has him back, if for whatever reason the situation arose again, you've just passed the buck onto someone else. Which is exceedingly selfish.

We had one PTS for much less. Because at the end of the day, it's not fair on them to be passed around from pillar to post, never being touched cos no one trusts them.

If you have him PTS now he can go with the love of his life and go very happy. I couldn't live with myself if something happened to his ex-owner, or any other future owners, cos I was too selfish to have him PTS.

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I would imagine though that his ex-owners know what he is like - and if they are prepared to take him on when they know the issues - I think that is the best option and Sooty should not need to feel guilty at all if, in the future, he does something, or causes someone to be injured. These people used to own him, so I'm sure they know him inside out.

If he was not going back to them, then I would say pts unfortunately.
 
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If people are too scared to ride him, and if he is dangerous to handle, then he needs to be shot.

At the end of the day, he's a horse. There's no medical reason for his behaviour and it's not conductive to him living a happy life as a horse.

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There could well be a medical reason for his behaviour: he is unsound in a school. And I don't think he is dangerous to handle
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At the end of the day why would a previous owner take the horse back if they didn't consider his welfare to be their priority. I think it sounds like a very promising situation and hope it works out Sooty.

The only thing I'd add is maybe think about getting him freezebranded with the loss of use stamp? That would then act as a back up so he would be less likely to be passed off as a healthy horse if anything were to go wrong.
 
Oh that is a good idea! I can't claim loss of use but might be able to get him stamped nonetheless. However, his former owner is fully informed of the situation, and we have discussed the possibility of having him pts should his behaviour deteriorate. She is happy for me to retain ownership so that I am always aware of his whereabouts. The vet is confident that his issues are not pain related, and I am happy to put my faith in my vet. Thank you for your kind words!
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<font color="blue"> Oh that is a good idea! I can't claim loss of use but might be able to get him stamped nonetheless. However, his former owner is fully informed of the situation, and we have discussed the possibility of having him pts should his behaviour deteriorate. She is happy for me to retain ownership so that I am always aware of his whereabouts. The vet is confident that his issues are not pain related, and I am happy to put my faith in my vet. </font>

Can't argue with that. An all round win-win siyuation IMO. Nobody buck-passing and horse lives to fight another day - well, perhaps not a perfect choice of words, but you know what I mean!

Lucky horse.
 
Glad to be of service
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Will you let us know if you decide to enquire about the LOU stamp route? It sounds as if you might not need it, but would be interesting to know if they would do it without the official insurance LOU. If not you get 4-5 letters so I suppose... L A M E might do the trick?!
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Cant really offer any great advice, although he may well settle in a bigger yard with no chance of pair bonding. Could you put him out on loan perhaps?

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I haven't read all the replies but I would urge you to consider the above and the importance of the type of yard he is on. If I understand correctly he is out with the mare he is obsessed with and a shetland and no other horses?

I had exactly the same experience with my gelding. I had him at livery in England on various livery yards and he never had a problem with hacking out, competeing, going out in the trailer. I moved to Northern Ireland and took him and my mare with me and moved them on to our own land with another little mare who I loaned to keep them company. My gelding became completely obsessed with my mare, I couldn't hack him, he would scream endlessly if I took her out, he started bucking and was very dangerous on the road. In the end I gave up riding him because I came back from every ride in tears.
When I moved back to England he went back to a livery yard and went out with a group of other geldings. He completely reverted to his lovely old self and is now great to hack out again.
I think we forget how horses respond so strongly to different management set ups. Some horses just need to be in a big herd environment.
 
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