Horse hugely wound up by clippers - help!

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Ginn

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So 2 Questions:

Any ideas why she would suddenly object and now has such an unwanted reaction to the clippers when she was improving so much? (and yes, new, sharp blades and no they weren't in any way hot)??

Any tips for helping her overcome her nerves/fear of being clipped??







History is as follows:

Past 2 years have got T clipped (bib) with some cheapish trimmers. Previously she hasn't been terribly happy and an twitch has been used but we have got the job done without too many issues.

Decided part of the problem was that I didn't have the proper kit for the job so after doing a lot of research I invested in some Moser Avalons as they are one of the quietest clippers on the marker without compromising on quality (though I accept they are probably not up to clipping lots of horses or doing thick/course coats).

First few days I had them I just turned them on without the blades attached and groomed her while holding them, building up to putting them on her, which went well. Then attached the the blades and repeated until I could touch her all over with them. Lots of praise etc.

Then I moved on clipping the hair. She was a little nervous to start but I just kept the blades on her and she soon settled and allowed me to do half her neck and shoulder on one side. I stopped to oil as I'd left it in the tack room and when I came back I went back a step to just turning the clippers on and brushing for a few minutes before putting them on her again and she decided she was having none of it. It took me an hour to get the clippers back on her with a lot of unwanted and out of character behavior and eventually I managed to clip a patch the size of a dinner plate on the other shoulder before deciding that was enough of a battle.

That was last weekend. I spoke to a few friends and instructor who all agreed it was best to get someone with years of experience and a good reputation with nervy horses to finish the job so he came up today. In the meantime Kiri has been having the clippers running around Till's while doing evening chores which has involved a lot of snorting but an improvement from last weekend!

So today we tried again and long story short there was no way she was going to be clipped without a huge fight (and ending up as a bad experience for all concerned!), twitch or no twitch and regardless of which clippers were used. Unfortuantely she is the type of horse that once upset you can't reason with
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Clipper suggested having a word with the vet and seeing what they could suggest by way of sedation (I suspect an IV knock out job as I doubt sedalin will touch her as it is the adrenaline which is the issue) and he said he will happily come up and try again which I am fine with but long term it still doesn't address the problem
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Vet is up in a month to do jabs so will do her then if vet sedation is required but in the meantime I will continue to try and settle her with them.
 
Is it the actual noise of the clippers she doesnt like?

My share horse (the Chestnut in my sig) is hogged and trimmed up all year and gets a full clip in winter...last year he was an absolute boob to clip his face off....he wasnt even very good once twitched...it took about 6 months for him to trust us again when it came to hogging him.

Turns out, hes incredibly ticklish on his face. this year he has a half face and it was done with wahl trimmers ( might not be what they are for but its done the job and he didnt get too silly!!)
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Hope you get sorted soon though!!
 
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Vet is up in a month to do jabs so will do her then if vet sedation is required but in the meantime I will continue to try and settle her with them.


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I wouldn't, to be honest. It's likely to aggrievate the problem. Perhaps do, but only with Sedalin, and give it to her a while before you approach with clippers. Then, don't push it to the point where she's wound up (hopefully with Sedalin in her system it'll take longer for the adrenaline to kick in!)

Otherwise, she's likely to associate clipping with being scared and wound up, and as horses learn by association, that'll leave you with a bigger problem than you have now.
 
Thanks Munchkin - This was my feeling too which is why I'd rather address the problem then take a short cut to get it done but there is a limit to what I will do before someone gets hurt and the nicely, nicely patient approach seems to result in a scared, wound up horse too. I wonder whether it would just be better to have a nice experince for everyone rather than the battle we have atm and the person who came to clip felt sedation was the only way we would get her done safely
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I'm not convinced that with patience and doing a little bit daily so she only has about 5 mins to deal with at a time we won't crack it but my approach is getting us nowhere so I need some other ideas.

Need to speak to the vet about what sedation to use as she is very hypersensitive and needs to be totally chilled so the adrenaline doesn't hit the system in the first place. It may be that the sedalin will be sufficient, he may have a better idea, I'm not a vet so will take his advice on it.

Nic - the nose is half the battle as she really doesn't like it and it has taken a lot of persuasion just to get near her with the clippers (no obvious wires so not that!) but once on her she doesn't like the vibration either. She is better where there is more muscle/fat though so I suspect it is a combination of the two. Incidently I have used vibrating massage balls etc on her with no problem at all!
 
A lot of the time horses get wound up also by the sound of the hair being chopped or the sight.. Our miniature got to the same stage almost (before we managed to give him two patches!) and it was the sound of the hair being clipped setting him off, once we managed to get near him again he wasn't too bad if he couldn't see them..

Some horses arent very good to clip and never will be the angel to clip horses. I do think you have a good approach though, sedalin may help a little
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Keep trying!
 
Hadn't thought of that but TBH once I've got her settled enough to actually clip she is fairly accepting once I'm going. Getting to that point is another matter and what I have learnt is that if I put the clippers on her I have to do it firmly, not lightly as lightly seems to tickle/aggrevate more.

I'm not sure she'll ever be an angel to clip but it would be nice to get to the point where I can actually do it without significant intervention (sedation). I think I'll get some sedalin if the vet agrees and see what she is like with that first as I do wonder if she'll be OK if I can just take the edge off her.

What I can't understand is this sudden panic and dislike of the clippers when she was improving so much?? I can't help wondering whether the battle I ended up having last weekend has infact done a lot more harm than good as she is now worse than ever.
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Someone has been asking for a difficult clipping demo horse for a Michael Peace clinic at Stow on the Wold [on BD forum] on Thursday but think that someone is already going .
I would definately sedate with jab and just get it done.
 
Delphie - read my OP, twitch had bugger all effect!

Carthorse - excellent idea except I have no transport and am 100 miles away on a work placement
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I don't disagree with you about getting it done quickly and easily but ultimately I still want to try and crack this as I doubt sedation will do anymore than help on that one occasion its used
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I am not against sedating for a horse that is getting increasingly upset by it- my mare would get wound up to the point of really losing the plot but just had to hear the clippers to start going into one. I did sedate her and had a professionial clip her so it was all done quickly and that seemed to be the best option. Leaving her unclipped was not an option as she stayed in work all winter and went back eventing at the beginning of the season. I can't speak for all but in her case, my normally laid back mare would completely lose the plot and I learnt to work around her dislikes and not to confront them. '
 
Sounds like sedating her and getting it done is the best thing at the moment.

I would, however, persist with the desensitisation but do it slightly differently. Instead of approaching her with the clippers, let her approach you. Walk in the stable with the clippers and if she makes any sort of move in your direction, either a step or even just turning her head to look at you (even by coincidence, it doesn't matter why she does it), make a specific noise and give her a treat (the specific noise is the marker that communicates 'that was the behaviour I wanted, that's why you will be getting the treat"). Treat her often (very, very small treats) for any movement towards you and the clippers, until she touches them with her nose. Repeat little and often, then repeat with the clippers on and repeat with her touching different body parts to the clippers. That way she will come to think she is training you: "look at silly mommy, she is giving me treats for touching the clippers" rather than you forcing the clippers on her.

Good luck!
 
I know it sounds odd but she could be a lot more sensitive on one side than the other - a bit like if you have your armpits or legs waxed - one might hurt a lot more than the other for some odd reason. Hence why she was better on one side than the other.
Perhaps you could try giving her a couple of bute or similar before your next attempt just in case she does find it a bit too sensitive, that should dull any feelings she gets from it.

Other than that I can't suggest anything else other than what people have already suggested.
 
Luci - thanks for that
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Nice to know that not only am I not alone but that it is a problem that can be worked with (albeit with the help of sedation!).

Booboos - great suggestions! I have just spent an hour working with her - put the clippers hanging from her hay rack (on) and shoved her in the stable with me in there armed with treats (but not holding the clippers), lots of pats, praise and treats when she came to me and I moved closer to where the clippers were until I was alongside (in the doorway). I then shoved a lovely tastey bucket of food almost under them but not quite (didn't want her inadvertently clipping her head! LOL) and she came and ate it. A huge step forwards from this morning when she wouldn't let anyone so much as touch her with them running. When I was grooming to rug I removed the blades and rubbed her all over with them which was ok provided I kept them moving. Tried putting the blades on but she wasn't keen so didn't do anymore than hold them while give lots of scratches in her favourite scratchy spot and then went back to no blades (but running) for a final rub down as she was OK with that so we ended on a positive. While I was grooming/patting and putting the clippers on or near her kiri was stuffing her with treats and food (always a good distraction with her).

Roody - I had wondered that but then dismissed it as I wasn't sure if it was possible. She wouldn't let me finish the side I'd started but this included doing the top of her neck and around her elbows which are never easy anyway. Will ask vet about bute when I speak to him as certainly worth a try if he's happy for me to.
 
When twitching horses you have to be aware of a couple of important things.

One is, that it's best to approach the horse quietly, before it has got wound up, and calmly apply the twitch. That way there is little or no adrenalin present to interfere with the action of the twitch in the induction of calming endorphins.

It may be best to keep the clippers out of sight until this has been accomplished

The other thing to be aware of is that there is an optimum time period for the application of a twitch, which amounts to between 12 and 15 minutes, afetr which you can expect a violent reaction from the horse.

The production of calming endorphins is very quick in onset, but begins to tail off almost immediately and, as the balance between them and adrenalin changes, and the adrenalin comes to the fore, the violent reaction is inevitable.

This is purely a natural reaction, and is similar to the last ditch attempt for survival exhibited by a wild zebra which has been caught by a lion.

So, it is very important to watch the clock when twitching horses, and to make sure to give the horse a break after from the twitch, and perhaps massaging its nose for a few minutes before reapplication.

A further complication is that some horses which have been allowed to become stressed, then have been twitched, and then taken into the time period when they react violently, are often very reluctant to allow themselves to be twitched thereafter, and many will become very stressed at the mere sight of a twitch as a result.

Horses which find certain stimuli very fearful will only be able to take so much exposure to those stimuli and, if they are restrained, and can't use their flight response, they will fight.

It's possible that bad experiences may have a cumulative effect on some horses, particularly if the handler has misjudged the severity of the 'damage' done, and that may be why some horses regress in terms of their acceptance of being clipped.
 
Thanks AO - very imformative post and definately worth knowing if I end up twitching again. It may well explain why today the twitch had no effect as by the time the twitch was applied she was already wound up by the experience.

The only thing I can say is that she has not had a bad experience of being clipped unless someone did it to her as a foal which I very much doubt as I have had her since she was just over a year old. I therefore can't see why she has such an adverse reaction with the exception of the fact that the previous years she's been clipped she was twitched (which she doesn't like, understandably) but then she was only twitched because didn't like having the clippers on her in the first place...

The problem I now have is how do I make clipping a "nice" thing that doesn't cause her so much anxiety.
 
I've clipped alot of horses and I find that by not giving the morning net (if they are food orientated) and trying at lunchtime when the yard is quiet can help them because as much as they are tense they are also hungry and eating encourages relaxation.
Have you tried cordless clippers? sometimes its not the clippers causeing the issue it the big long snake of extension lead they can see trying to eat them! even when you are very organised with the lead it still wafts and makes noise. Try starting at the chest as you can scatch it first which most of them enjoy. Good Luck.
 
Thanks
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Yes, clippers are cordless (well run off a battery pack by a cord that can run up my jumper and down my sleeve to the clippers as I was concerned that the wire would be just another contributer to stress.

Have only tried starting on the shoulder so will try starting on the chest next time and also try giving a haynet and skipping morning breakfast.
 
Hi Ginn, I totally agree with AengusOg (great name!) I have clipped hundreds of horses over 30 years. Some get better over the years, others just remain scared of the clippers. You can use the twitch but not for the whole horse and sometime Sedalin is sufficient to take the edge off the horse enough to clip safely. Personally, I would always get a vet to give an IV sedation to a horse which is genuinely very frightened, this saves anxiety for the horse and makes it safer for the person clipping. It costs me £33 per sedation and is well worth it for both of us!
 
I am often called on to work with 'difficult' and 'dangerous' horses, and I have worked with several which were difficult to clip.

In my line of work, I have to work out which means will give the greatest long term improvement for the horse, and also what will be achieveable for the owner in terms of maintaining that improvement.

Using desensitising techniques to persuade horses to accept the objects of their fears is really best done in an arena/sandschool, using a training halter and a long rope.

Tying a horse to a wall, or attempting any other form of restraint, is extremely counter-productive. If a horse has a great fear of something and cannot put what it perceives to be a safe distance between itself and the stimulus, it will be obliged to fight.

By working the horse in a large area, and allowing it to use its flight response, it is possible to create acceptance and confidence.

Teaching your horse that clipping is 'a "nice" thing that doesn't cause her so much anxiety', as you suggest, is not really the way to go, in my opinion, because that approach is fraught with danger. It requires immaculate timing and understanding of horse behaviour to avoid praising the horse for the wrong behaviour.

A simple example of that is......if you ask your horse to allow the approach of the clippers, and, as she shows a nervous reaction, you use a calm voice to reassure her, it may be that you are reinforcing her fears rather than allaying them. If, by contrast, you allow her to react, then, as soon as she stops reacting, you reassure her, you have rewarded her for her acceptance of the clippers, rather than for exhibiting her fear of them.

That could easily cause much confusion, and may do more harm than good if not done properly. It's better to train the horse quietly, consistently, and with patience, that it must accept what is required of it, and this can be done by gentle persistence and repetition, giving the horse the chance to give the correct response, then rewarding it for doing the right thing.

Your horse may be afraid of the clippers, or she may be afraid because she is picking up on your fear of her reaction. If it is the former, you only have to work with her, whereas if it is the latter, or both, you will also have to work on your own weaknesses too, in order to be confident enough to be able to teach her to accept the clippers and being clipped.

I have had success with clipper-shy horses, using the training halter, in an arena, using prior training into the halter, and then by allowing the horse to react to the stimulus of the running clippers...........then, when the horse stops reacting, rewarding the horse by stopping the clippers and praising it for its acceptance of them.

By using this technique to settle it to the presence of the clippers, it's then possible, by using advance and retreat techniques, to increase the horse's acceptance of them to the point that it will allow contact, initially, and actual clipping ultimately.

That approach is far easier on the horse as it is, to an extent, able to find a distance at which it is comfortable with the object of its fear, and that distance can be decreased as the horse's confidence grows.

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It sounds to me like you're on the right track. I say persevere with you patient (albeit time consuming method) you're better to get her trust IMO.

Ron had been badly scared by his previous owner and had become very nervous of clipping. He'd been startled whilst being hogged and put his head through (yes, through) his stable roof. When I got him he had to be sedated (sedalin) to clip. The second year I bought myself a pair of the avalons (like yours, and for the same reasons) and I got hold of a copy of the michael peace clipping DVD and followed it to the letter.

4 years on, I still start the same way when I go to clip him. I spend a few minutes letting him hear them (i usually clip the other horse first) in another stable, then run them in his stable, then on him, then slowly start to clip. it's so important to reward the right behaviour, and if he seems anxious I stop them when he's standing still give him a moment and some praise then start again at square 1.

this year, I managed to hunter clip him loose in his stable, and I left it when I'd got most of the hair off. We just have his armpits and head to do in the morning.

Keep going the way you are and you'll have her trust, which is better than any sedatives!
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We have a horse at work who has always been IV sedated to be clipped, as he is usually very silly and a bit dangerous. This year his new owner (has bought out sindicate) wanted us to try without. We were dreading this, and thought we'd be lucky to manage a bib.
We had a bright idea about ear plugs!
they were fabulous, ear plugs and a bit of sedalin we managed a hunter clip and barely any problems.
We also put ear plugs in a few others that can be a bit funny with the clippers, and they have all been so much better.
 
Jenhunt - really useful info, thanks. Will have a look for the MP dvd but great to hear from people who have overcome this problem. Out of interest how long did it take following MPs advice before Ron started to accept the clippers?

AO, as much as I appreciate what you are saying, knowing my horse the approach you suggest I strongly suspect would get me nowhere. I do however agree that the right behaviour needs to be rewarded, not the wrong behaviour.
 
the first year I spent a week running them for how ever long it took me to change both horses rugs. then another week grooming him with one hand while they were running in the other for about 10 mins at a time i guess. then a third week where i was sort of grooming him with one hand and the clippers running were following in the other hand (for however long it took to groom him)
then finally started to clip him the next week. But once he realised i wasn't going to hurt him he settled reasonably quickly.

it's difficult to avoid the temptation to rush things at the first sign of improvement. if you get a bit of a breakthrough try to stick at the same level to reinforce things before you move on.

and when it all looks a bit shaky, drop back again to give them confidence again.

good luck, and shout if you need help!
 
Joseyjo - good idea, definately prepared to try that one! When you say ear plugs what do you mean? Have tried cottonwool in ears in the past but she prompty got cross and shock the whole lot out in less than 30 seconds!
 
That's brilliant! So glad you had a good response! If you decide to continue along this route, a couple of things to keep in mind:
- try to do little and often
- don't make the task progressively harder, make it easier, then harder again, then really, really easy, etc! Be prepared to start at the beginning again, don't start where you left off. If the mare wants to proceed faster she will let you know.

On what AlngusOg suggests, I would just say that these are two different techniques based on the same principles. Use whichever one works for you but it might be best not to mix both at the same time.

What I suggested involves shaping a behaviour elicited from the horse. She should not be tied up, you should not force the clippers on her, she should chose to come to them. Yes, there is a problem with rewarding the wrong cue - to avoid it use something that makes a neutral noise (like a clicker) and beware of your timing. As soon as she looks at the direction of the clippers, click, you can then take your time to fish out a treat. In this technique you do nothing until the horse does the right thing and then you reward. Behaviour that is rewarded is likely to be repeated and this is how you progress.

What AlngusOg suggests (and correct me if I am wrong AO!) involves a negative stimulus (pressure from the halter) while the horse does anything but the right thing, and which is released when the horse does the right thing. Importantly the amount of pressure put on the horse has to be carefully managed which is why it is best to do it in a large space and with a long line.

Both are based on types of reward: the first gives food as a direct reward, the second removes the pressure of the halter as a reward. The first technique uses positive reinforcement (when a behaviour is stengthened by producing some desirable consequence), the second uses negative reinforcement (when a behaviour is strengthened by terminating some undesirable consequence).
 
Also, just out of interest, the same problems raised by AengusOg with identifying the correct behaviour and applying the marker (the horse looks, you make the noise that means 'that was the behaviour'), are to be found in identifying the correct behaviour and removing the negative stimulus (the horse relaxes, you remove the pressure from the halter).

All operant conditioning techniques require good timing, repetition and consistency - you can't get away from that merely by subsituting negative reinforcement for positive reinforcement.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What AlngusOg suggests (and correct me if I am wrong AO!) involves a negative stimulus (pressure from the halter) while the horse does anything but the right thing, and which is released when the horse does the right thing. Importantly the amount of pressure put on the horse has to be carefully managed which is why it is best to do it in a large space and with a long line.

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You are correct when you say this.

Ideally, from my point of view, working as I do with some pretty damaged horses, I'd work in a round pen with the horse loose, so that there was no physical pressure being brought to bear on the horse.

However, not everyone has access to a round pen, so it's important to have some means of preventing the horse just wandering off........hence the rope and halter.
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Pressure halter work can and should be very gentle and subtle.

The initial training of the horse into the halter, where the horse is taught to yield to light pressure is very important. Not only does it teach the horse to be compliant and to pay attention to the position of the handler, and to follow him closely, it also sets the horse up for recognising and responding to the handler's body language, which aids the reduction of halter use as the understanding grows between horse and handler.

Therefore, the actual use of physical pressure from the halter can be reduced in terms of intensity, frequency, and duration, resulting in quicker responses and increased compliance from the horse.

For example, where the pressure may have to have been applied for, say, five seconds, to teach the horse the 'back-up' response when first introduced, the mere lifting of the rope on a finger directed toward the horse's chest would be enough to elicit the response after a few minutes.

Using this teaching of response to progressively more subtle cues, the horse can ultimately be worked effectively at a distance on a long rope whilst being presented with fearful stimuli, without the handler having to use severe pressure.

I can't get too into discussion on pos/neg reinforcement, as it makes my brain hurt, although I acknowledge its importance.
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[ QUOTE ]
For example, where the pressure may have to have been applied for, say, five seconds, to teach the horse the 'back-up' response when first introduced, the mere lifting of the rope on a finger directed toward the horse's chest would be enough to elicit the response after a few minutes.

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The end of the above last sentence should have read.......'after a few minutes of training.'
 
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