Horse hunting - greys and melanomas?

[JGC]

Potentially looking for a new horse given I now have two who have decided a permanent holiday is more to their liking

But one of the criteria I've been using to select has been no greys - not because I mind about the colour at all, but I am concerned about melanomas, having had a share a long time ago who had a lot of problems and at my last stayaway show, I was next to a grey 11 year old trained to PSG but the lady left after the first day saying she was going to retire him because he was obviously too bothered by his melanomas.

I've seen an ad for a grey who ticks all the other boxes on paper, so I wondering whether to view, but I don't want to waste anyone's time. Am I exaggerating the risks in my mind a bit? This is a 12 year old and has a recent vetting (pass), and apparently no melanomas showing. Would that make a difference, i.e. would problems already have started to show up?

 

[Nari]

I didn't look at greys for the same reason, I'd lost one to melanomas years ago and while he was an old man I knew I couldn't deal with worrying about every lump and bump. My sensible head said any horse can have something go wrong at any age, but eotionally I couldn't do it.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I won't look at greys for the same reasons. Especially after I had a share horse that went down hill so rapidly and they grew much faster than we expected. I know that it won't be that way with every grey, and that a good horse is a good horse, but still.

It just comes down to personal choice and levels of comfort.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I won't look at greys for same reason. All the greys I know have melanoma. Ages range from 6 to 28. It's not so much what I can see but what's going on inside.

 

[Chippers1]

I've had two greys, my old pony had melanomas but the only one that affected him being ridden was under his chin, he just didn't wear a noseband. Buzz currently as far as I can tell has none and he's 16. Maybe some inside but none externally.
I love greys and the thought of potentially having a problem in the future wouldn't put me off buying on, anything can go wrong with horses at any time.

 

[Cloball]

White horses – non-coding sequences drive premature hair greying and predisposition to melanoma - PMC

The Grey allele in horses is causing premature hair greying and susceptibility to melanoma. The causal mutation is a 4.6 kb tandem duplication in intron 6 of the Syntaxin 17 gene. A recent study demonstrated that the most common allele at the Grey ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In theory it might be possible to separate greys at highest risk of melanoma.

 

[Chippers1]

That's interesting @Cloball. With my very small sample size of two, I wondered whether the fact that Buzz was very dark and kept his dark points for much longer than Misty did contributed to the fact that he hasn't got any (visible) melanomas. A friend's grey pony had a lot removed from his sheath recently and he has been white grey since very young.

 

[JGC]

White horses – non-coding sequences drive premature hair greying and predisposition to melanoma - PMC

The Grey allele in horses is causing premature hair greying and susceptibility to melanoma. The causal mutation is a 4.6 kb tandem duplication in intron 6 of the Syntaxin 17 gene. A recent study demonstrated that the most common allele at the Grey ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In theory it might be possible to separate greys at highest risk of melanoma.

I should have said she's a fleabitten grey with chestnut flecks (and still quite dark at 12), which I did see somewhere reduced the risk.

 

[LEC]

I should have said she's a fleabitten grey with chestnut flecks (and still quite dark at 12), which I did see somewhere reduced the risk.

Were both parents grey or just one?

The one I had who had none stayed very dark until 11, born dark bay and only had one grey parent (sire). I have always avoided double grey parentage for this reason. It’s not proven but just a theory.

 

[HollyWoozle]

It's a tough call... my grey mare now has melanomas and my grey mare before that also had melanomas and it can be stressful. Prior to that I was on ponies and have had three grey ponies during my childhood, none of whom had them. I don't know if they affect horses more than ponies.

I have already said in my mind that I would avoid greys in the future for this reason. Then again I said I didn't want a grey last time too! It would be a shame to miss the perfect horse on the chance they might get them I suppose.

 

[JGC]

Were both parents grey or just one?

The one I had who had none stayed very dark until 11, born dark bay and only had one grey parent (sire). I have always avoided double grey parentage for this reason. It’s not proven but just a theory.

I don't know, but I will find out!

 

[Snowfilly]

Both greys I had died from them. One was in her 30s and they didn’t cause an issue until the last day, when an internal one went rogue but the other was only 15.

Never having another grey, it’s the one disease that’s easy to avoid by just not buying the grey.

I do wonder if it’s ethical to breed them; I bred my grey mare and thankfully she had a bay but I wouldn’t have done it now.

 

[Prancerpoos]

Just look elsewhere. It is not worth the stress.

As an aside - there seemed to be a lot of greys in the Olympic eventing.

 

[First Frost]

The statisics show that 80% of greys have a melanoma by age 15.
I found this out to my cost. My beautiful connie had no external signs of melanoma at age 17. He developed an internal lump behind his elbow, it looked like a fatty lump. An entire vet team (very experienced equine vets), thought it was a fatty lump. The only reason removal was advised was because it was by his girth. Turnesd out he had a rare type of melanoma the size of a grapefruit. The operation was totally successful and he has had the vaccine because we don't know how many other internal melanomas he has. Six months ago aged 20 he suffered a high fever and septic laminitis bloods showed the likely cause was a melanoma rupturing inside him. He has just successfully returned to work, but we never know if/when it will happen again.
This is a horse who has competed and been sound in every other way his entire life. he is my horse of a lifetime but I will never have another grey, which is difficult as I love connie's. My young horse is dun!!!

just read back the replies. Melanomas are more common in heterozegous greys. So one's with 2 grey genes.

 

[Clodagh]

I always had greys. It wouldn’t stop me choosing one. Horses can get all sorts of issues and melanomas do tend to not be an issue until they are older.
I lost a very old pony to them but my other greys died of normal horse related injuries.

 

[Cloball]

Both greys I had died from them. One was in her 30s and they didn’t cause an issue until the last day, when an internal one went rogue but the other was only 15.

Never having another grey, it’s the one disease that’s easy to avoid by just not buying the grey.

I do wonder if it’s ethical to breed them; I bred my grey mare and thankfully she had a bay but I wouldn’t have done it now.

There seems to be quite a few newish studies so I wonder if we might at some point be able to select out the high risk phenotype.

 

[Birker2020]

I'd not touch one due to the melanoma risk either.

However, with me its personal choice too as I much prefer my bays and black horses.

 

[Skib]

My horsey love was a grey, oversize Connie. She died aged 16. But she made me as a rider and if I ever buy a horse of my own it will be another Connie mare, just for the agility and flowing speed. Yard staff joked she would do anything for me and set me and her more and more impossible challenges.

 

[irishdraft]

I have had 4 greys and am on my 5th, first one had no sarcoids or melanoma but lost her to navicular age 9, 2nd had a couple of tiny melanoma no sarcoids lost her age 20 from hock related issues, 3rd is retired in field from injury and ringbone no melanoma but had sarcoids which have now gone, 4th I lost at 14 to internal tumours, he had one tiny melanoma on his dock, 5th horse has one tiny melanoma on her dock which hasn't changed in 2 years, shes 9 so could go wrong but although i agree greys probably do have a higher chance of melanoma if the horse was right it wouldnt put me off but i am a confirmed grey lover .

 

[Snowfilly]

The statisics show that 80% of greys have a melanoma by age 15.
I found this out to my cost. My beautiful connie had no external signs of melanoma at age 17. He developed an internal lump behind his elbow, it looked like a fatty lump. An entire vet team (very experienced equine vets), thought it was a fatty lump. The only reason removal was advised was because it was by his girth. Turnesd out he had a rare type of melanoma the size of a grapefruit. The operation was totally successful and he has had the vaccine because we don't know how many other internal melanomas he has. Six months ago aged 20 he suffered a high fever and septic laminitis bloods showed the likely cause was a melanoma rupturing inside him. He has just successfully returned to work, but we never know if/when it will happen again.
This is a horse who has competed and been sound in every other way his entire life. he is my horse of a lifetime but I will never have another grey, which is difficult as I love connie's. My young horse is dun!!!

just read back the replies. Melanomas are more common in heterozegous greys. So one's with 2 grey genes.

You mean homozygous, two copies of the grey gene. Like sexuality, homo- is two the same and hetero- is two different.

 

[maya2008]

Anything can break at any time. Some get arthritis ridiculously young, there's canker, soft tissue injuries from fun in the field, broken bones from kicks, all the various options that create colic...horses aren't the sturdiest creatures.

Would I breed a grey on purpose? No. I'd never deliberately buy a grey for myself either just because they're such a nightmare to keep clean. But we're in the Welsh pony stage - so have had two already and were virtually given another a couple of weeks ago. She's an absolute angel - if we'd said no on the basis of her colour we'd have missed out hugely. But then the jumping pony who gave me all the confidence, had pssm. We knew she'd never grow old and retire with us, but we made the most of every year she had. I regret nothing. I also know a 20yo grey mare with no melanomas, and my childhood was filled with little grey ponies that made it to old age.

So yes, I'd buy the grey if it was otherwise perfect, and currently melanoma free. I probably wouldn't want to spend a fortune though.

 

[Snow Falcon]

My old boy lived to 28. As far I ever found/knew about he had a very small one (half the size of little finger nail) and that was it.

 

[First Frost]

Sorry snowfilly yes I do mean homozygous, the heat is getting too me today!

 

[TinseLeneHorse]

My grey mare has developed a few small ones around her anus in the last couple of years. But she is in her mid twenties and was fine most of her life. The vet is not unduly concerned about them though we are monitoring them closely.
At the moment the melanomas are the least of my worries with her.
She's been a fabulous horse and I'll never regret buying a grey even though I had doubts at the time

 

[Red-1]

I have had a few greys and only one had melanomas. That said, he was 28 when I got him (1st pony) and they didn't bother him until he was well the wrong side of 30, when he became riddled and was PTS.

The others simply didn't have them.

My current horse is grey. I didn't want a grey because of all the washing, but am glad I took the plunge with him.

I decided I would risk a grey, but only if no melanomas were present. People thought that too uncompromising, but then I wouldn't have one with a sarcoid either.

 

[scats]

20 years yesterday I said goodbye to my childhood pony. She was 27 when she was PTS due to liver disease.

She was riddled with melanomas but thankfully never caused her any problems. I had to slightly adjust where the tack sat (huge one on side of her head etc) but any issues we had with them over the years were minor. One time she rubbed the one under her chin and it got an abscess on it which popped (causing strangles mania )

I was very fortunate really. As a result, I’ve always had a very relaxed attitude towards them.

 

[Bernster]

I’d try not to get another grey for this reason. There are a lot of greys and they often seem and many are fabulous horses but the melanoma risk is so high sadly. It surprises me that not more is being done to try and breed it out but maybe it’s so prevalent that it’s just not possible. My boy is an amazing horse but he’s had melanoma since he was about 7yo and it has caused him some issues.

 

[Cragrat]

Very interesting article, Cloball. Thank you for sharing. It certainly looks as though they could be on the way to being able to breed melanoma's out,though not there yet. As mentioned above, avoiding homozygous greys, and avoiding breeding 2 greys together would be a start. I wonder if it will ever be possible to have a young white grey with a LOW risk of melanoma's?

Which makes me wonder how common melanoma's are in Lippizana's?

 

[mustardsmum]

The problem with melanomas isn’t the ones you can see, it’s the ones you can’t see … I have had three greys and only one didn’t have melanomas that I knew of. Current mare is 21 and has them under her tail, one by her eye, two on her face. Passed a vetting at 14 with none. So far, we’ve had one removed from in front of her stifle because it suddenly started to get bigger and the one in the corner of her eye is being closely monitored. Would I have another grey? I don’t think my experience of having horses with them would stop me having another - I have a bay who suddenly grew an sarcoid out of nowhere so my feeling is if it’s the right horse….

 

[Cloball]

Very interesting article, Cloball. Thank you for sharing. It certainly looks as though they could be on the way to being able to breed melanoma's out,though not there yet. As mentioned above, avoiding homozygous greys, and avoiding breeding 2 greys together would be a start. I wonder if it will ever be possible to have a young white grey with a LOW risk of melanoma's?

Which makes me wonder how common melanoma's are in Lippizana's?

It would be very interesting particularly as certain breeds like lipizzaner and traditionally PREs grey was preferred.