Horse-hunting misery - dishonest sellers

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Frenchmade

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Just opening this up for discussion and a WWYD? dilemma for you all :) Im horse shopping at the moment with what I think is a reasonable budget for what I'm looking for. I recently saw four horses over a period of a week. Horse No. 1 - clearly worked hard before we got there, sweating, saddle pad marks on one side, (saw seller riding in arena when we got there early!), but told he hadn't been worked. Horse was clearly wrong behind. Horse No. 2 - muscle wastage on top line, very thin, dodgy behind. (Asked seller if she had trouble keeping weight on him. No, was the reply.) I was told he had come from Ireland with a 5 stage vetting. When I asked to see it, it was just a 'good health' type of sales receipt. And the best of all Horse No 4 (we'll leave No 3 out for the moment) - I liked this chap. Had him vetted. He failed on hind limb lameness, boney changes in left hock,(plus shockingly bad behaviour on the ground at the vetting - reared reared reared plunged snapped reins and tanked off). I was told he would be suitable for an older woman to handle alone and hack out alone. He is now re-advertised for sale with no mention of anything being wrong.

Nos. 2 and 4 were being sold by dealers who are bringing in horses from Ireland, producing them a bit and selling them on. Both said they liked the horse so much they'd kept it for 6 months.

I would have thought that these days with social media being what it is and everyone being on it, they wouldn't dare try and pull one over on a buyer! I could easily expose at least one of them, the failed vetting in particular. He's on a Facebook site. No doubt I'd be deleted and banned, but some people might see it beforehand.

Why doesn't this happen? WWYD? Expose them, or try to, or keep quiet?
 
Frenchmade said:
Just opening this up for discussion and a WWYD? dilemma for you all :) Im horse shopping at the moment with what I think is a reasonable budget for what I'm looking for. I recently saw four horses over a period of a week. Horse No. 1 - clearly worked hard before we got there, sweating, saddle pad marks on one side, (saw seller riding in arena when we got there early!), but told he hadn't been worked. Horse was clearly wrong behind. Horse No. 2 - muscle wastage on top line, very thin, dodgy behind. (Asked seller if she had trouble keeping weight on him. No, was the reply.) I was told he had come from Ireland with a 5 stage vetting. When I asked to see it, it was just a 'good health' type of sales receipt. And the best of all Horse No 4 (we'll leave No 3 out for the moment) - I liked this chap. Had him vetted. He failed on hind limb lameness, boney changes in left hock,(plus shockingly bad behaviour on the ground at the vetting - reared reared reared plunged snapped reins and tanked off). I was told he would be suitable for an older woman to handle alone and hack out alone. He is now re-advertised for sale with no mention of anything being wrong.

Nos. 2 and 4 were being sold by dealers who are bringing in horses from Ireland, producing them a bit and selling them on. Both said they liked the horse so much they'd kept it for 6 months.

I would have thought that these days with social media being what it is and everyone being on it, they wouldn't dare try and pull one over on a buyer! I could easily expose at least one of them, the failed vetting in particular. He's on a Facebook site. No doubt I'd be deleted and banned, but some people might see it beforehand.

Why doesn't this happen? WWYD? Expose them, or try to, or keep quiet?
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I would post on the site that I had vetted the horse and it failed, in the hope that at least one person saw it before it was deleted. I'd also post on the dodgy dealer Facebook page. Someone else will know the name of it, I can't remember. They can't delete it from there.

Come on, spill the beans about number three :)!
 
I had a 14hh for sale once, it failed a 5 stage vetting on lameness on the lunge and flexion - i couldn't see any lameness on either!
My own vet came out the exact same day and 'vetted' him and nothing, absolutely zilch was wrong. My vet could have made a lot of money out of me if he was lame, but he wasn't.

Pony passed another 5 stage vetting with flying colours a week later for a new buyer! I also hadn't mentioned the 'failed' vetting in my advert or to that new buyer - it was irrelevant as there was nothing wrong with him. So if that original buyer had outed me on a social media for advertising a 'lame' pony it would have been unfair as the pony was sound and has been sound since.


I have never had a pony or horse vetted myself, but I've never spent over £4k, it just seems so inconsistent and good strong horses can fall short on 'what ifs' and fail a vetting for something that will probably never be an issue. Like my friend who bought a jumping pony for her oldest daughter 10 years ago, it had failed a vetting for someone else on boney changes in its hocks so she got it cheap. it's still jumping JA tracks now - never been sick or sorry in its life so she got a real bargain!


I hope your horse hunt luck improves :)
 
No 1 and 2 sound dodgy, as for no 4, not sure. Horse may have acted out of character due to pain.

So fill in the gaps what about no 3 ?
 
ycbm said:
I would post on the site that I had vetted the horse and it failed, in the hope that at least one person saw it before it was deleted. I'd also post on the dodgy dealer Facebook page. Someone else will know the name of it, I can't remember. They can't delete it from there.

Come on, spill the beans about number three :)!
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No 3 was tragic, but I don't think any dishonesty was involved, just ignorance. Poor horse was a TB who'd been turned away all winter through no rider. He was stick thin, covered in rain scald and hot infected mud fever on his hind legs. He walked out of the stable really wide behind, probably due to the mud fever being painful. I went to see him because a friend knew him from a few years ago and said his character was impeccable. They were asking almost £2000!! We were told to try and 'see past the woolley coat'. Yeah we could. And we could see his ribs. Poor horse.
 
Crackerz said:
I had a 14hh for sale once, it failed a 5 stage vetting on lameness on the lunge and flexion - i couldn't see any lameness on either!
My own vet came out the exact same day and 'vetted' him and nothing, absolutely zilch was wrong. My vet could have made a lot of money out of me if he was lame, but he wasn't.

Pony passed another 5 stage vetting with flying colours a week later for a new buyer! I also hadn't mentioned the 'failed' vetting in my advert or to that new buyer - it was irrelevant as there was nothing wrong with him. So if that original buyer had outed me on a social media for advertising a 'lame' pony it would have been unfair as the pony was sound and has been sound since.


I have never had a pony or horse vetted myself, but I've never spent over £4k, it just seems so inconsistent and good strong horses can fall short on 'what ifs' and fail a vetting for something that will probably never be an issue. Like my friend who bought a jumping pony for her oldest daughter 10 years ago, it had failed a vetting for someone else on boney changes in its hocks so she got it cheap. it's still jumping JA tracks now - never been sick or sorry in its life so she got a real bargain!


I hope your horse hunt luck improves :)
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I guess that's always a danger, that it's a false lameness report, but you have to trust your vet. Mine told me about the lameness but didn't rule out the horse. Just suggested that I might want to do some more xrays to check what it is, and that it might indeed be a temporary thing, or an old injury. She left it to me to decide whether to go ahead. I opted for caution especially given the dramatic change in character on the day! If it were pain causing the change in character, then what were they thinking of trying to sell a horse in that much pain? And if it were in so much pain, it didn't show any the week before when we rode/hacked/jumped it in a thorough test. They were claiming they were using it to teach a novice to jump.

Perhaps that's why no one says anything, because it can be so subjective. Didn't know there was a dodgy dealer Fb page! haha someone tell me what it's called!! Please!
 
Frenchmade said:
No 3 was tragic, but I don't think any dishonesty was involved, just ignorance. Poor horse was a TB who'd been turned away all winter through no rider. He was stick thin, covered in rain scald and hot infected mud fever on his hind legs. He walked out of the stable really wide behind, probably due to the mud fever being painful. I went to see him because a friend knew him from a few years ago and said his character was impeccable. They were asking almost £2000!! We were told to try and 'see past the woolley coat'. Yeah we could. And we could see his ribs. Poor horse.
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I saw a horse exactly like this, except he was worked hard before I got there, also had something up with his back (a couple of vertebrae looked like they were standing proud), skinny but wormy (I'd bet my bottom dollar), bilateral gunge from one nostril and couldn't take any contact on the reins (on questioning, he'd never had his teeth checked). I brought up the issues, made clear he needed vet and dentist and he was offered to me practically free - I still turned him down (and cried that night for the poor lad). If only I were in a position to rescue! It really opened my eyes to the extent of peoples ignorance regarding basic horse care - and to the sad fact that there are people who will run them into the ground, then sell them on when they have no idea how to put them together again. Heartbreaking and infuriating!

In the other situations you describe, there is probably not a whole lot you can do but I'd be vocal about the one who was dangerous on the ground. He shouldn't be in a novices care, for their sake and for his own regardless of why he behaved that way that day.
 
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Feeling your pain OP, I'm just started horse-hunting (ohh nooh, can't believe its come round AGAIN.......... :( ) and so all of this will probably be what I've got to watch for soon.

I really don't know if I can go through the pain again!!

The whole business of having to doubt what everyone says about a horse, and check it out if possible, is just so daunting. I've only just started casting my eye around and saw one horse on social media that I liked the look of, made some enquiries on the QT in the area where its being sold, as I know some folks from around there, and lo and behold it turns out that the horse has put the owner on crutches!! Apparently it spooked at traffic whilst being led (described in advert as "good in traffic" and "will stand all day to be fussed")........ hey ho.
 
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I helped my friend horse hunt a couple of years ago and we must have snogged a pond full of frogs before we found her prince. The worst was one from a dealer at least an hour and half drive away that was so thin its spine was protruding - they weren't remotely ashamed of the fact and even offered to let us ride it; we said no thanks and bolted out of the yard - it was not the sort of dealer you pick a fight with if you know what I mean.
 
On your bit about social media, unless people are v careful (presumably the shadier ones), then it does seem surprisingly easy to out them when it comes time to sell. My friend was looking last year and all she needed to do was check out their FB page and find out how bad/dangerous or unsound the horse had been. Happened a few times.
 
There are several dodgy dealer sites on facebook ;). Info always welcome and also you can do a search and check before you travel ;)
 
I had a horse vetted with a view to buy. He failed on hind limb lameness. The seller had only just brought him back into work after god knows how long, neglected to tell me this, and took me on a two hour hack as part of my trial on him (plus I'd ridden him in the school and jumped him). I doubt is have passed a vetting either after all that!
Another friend took a chance on him, bought him for a song, brought him gradually back into work and fitness and sold him a year later (having never had a day's trouble with him).
The buyer had a 5 stage vetting and he flew through.
He's my 'one that got away'.
 
Not in any way trying to defend any of the above sellers but you should some day try being on the other side. I am as honest as the day is long but have only tried to sell a couple of ponies the buyers have been a nightmare, not turning up, beginners who think they can ride when the ad clearly says not a novice ride, People who want a 13hh worker asking me to remeasure a 13.1 pony every day for weeks to see if I could make it 13hh or less (in the end I said I had chopped it off at the knees and it now measured 11.2) trials needed so duly allowed one to go it came back lame and thin after a week no idea how they got it to lose so much weight in a week unless they never fed it and rode it 8 hours a day. So I am afraid I dont hold much faith for buyers either. Horse buying and selling is the pits
 
Another one to defend the sellers a little. I had three lots of people fail to turn up recently. I had someone's vet fail a horse by looking at its video - it passed a 5 stage vetting with a specialist equine vet 10 days later.
Best of all, many years ago I had a young horse fail an Essex vet for local working hunter work on front flexion tests. We had the horse x rayed and it was perfect. It then had another vet look at it to buy for himself and he said its pelvis was lopsided. Checked by my vet and chiropracter and A1. Eventually the horse was sold to Germany as a potential 3 day event horse. Vetted by French team vet, x rayed from stifles down all A1 - purchaser had had 7 horses fail before this one. He took the horse to Advanced then it got sold to the German Olympic Federation (presumably re vetted) and went on to be long listed for the German Olympic Three Day Event Team but sadly did a tendon badly in the run up to the games. and was retired.

It is a minefield on both sides.
 
Best to wait IMO, unless your looking for something to set the world on fire and have to travel? Try to buy local and get some background grapevine history on the horse you choose. There now, I'm going to find the patience to take my own advice....not easy !
 
I definately dont think you should put on FB etc that you had someone elses horse vetted and it 'failed'- another vet may give a different report, after all, a vetting is only a snapshot in time. I sold a lovely RID 4 years ago, a chap wanted to buy him, we agreed a price, vet came and said sorry, hes slightly lower in one hip'. So the buyer didnt have him. Next day another chap came, got his own vet that day and the horse was declared perfect, so he was sold. The chap still has him and says hes the best horse he ever hunted, never a day sick or sorry.
I also sold a connemara once, I fed her some pony nuts while standing around during vetting, vet saw the green coming out of her mouth and said she had a hay allergy!! of course she didnt but people took vets word. Next day another girl had her vetted with no problems.
So just because one vet failed a horse at that moment in time, it doesnt mean the seller's dodgy.
 
I agree it's not much fun selling either. I've sold I think, 5, gave one away to the loaner and part ex-ed another. Selling a 18.1hh very forward spooky horse wasn't the most fun I've ever had. The people who turned up to 'ride' him :( He did go in the end to an excellent home but I had to turn down lots! Im trying to be a considerate buyer and always let people know if I decide not to come and view after seeing videos etc.

Regarding whether the dealer was dodgy or not, there were a few other tell tale signs. They should have been warnings, but hindsight is a wonderful thing! Lol
 
Elsbells said:
Best to wait IMO, unless your looking for something to set the world on fire and have to travel? Try to buy local and get some background grapevine history on the horse you choose. There now, I'm going to find the patience to take my own advice....not easy !
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I'd love to buy locally - but Im in France and the choice is dire. :(
 
Frenchmade said:
Had him vetted. He failed on hind limb lameness, boney changes in left hock,(plus shockingly bad behaviour on the ground at the vetting - reared reared reared plunged snapped reins and tanked off). I was told he would be suitable for an older woman to handle alone and hack out alone. He is now re-advertised for sale with no mention of anything being wrong.

I would have thought that these days with social media being what it is and everyone being on it, they wouldn't dare try and pull one over on a buyer! I could easily expose at least one of them, the failed vetting in particular. He's on a Facebook site. No doubt I'd be deleted and banned, but some people might see it beforehand.

Why doesn't this happen? WWYD? Expose them, or try to, or keep quiet?
Click to expand...

Of course they wouldn't mention a failed vetting in an advert. Have you EVER seen an advert admitting that? Nobody would admit that in the initital advert or obviously nobody would call about it! They may be honest and say the horse has failed a vetting when someone phones or they might not say anything unless asked (which is still fair enough - buyer beware) or they could blatantly lie but you don't know. Also, the fact that the horse was badly behaved at the vetting wouldn't absolutely turn me off it - it might be that the horse simply isn't a fan of vets prodding it as some aren't, he could still have been easy to handle in general. You also have to remember that all vettings are subjective, I've had one of my own horses years ago fail a vetting on the flexion tests and I was so shocked I got my own vet out THAT SAME DAY, he said he saw no issues and would have passed him...
 
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