Horse left to suffer by small animal vets

[Murphy88]

Very interesting topic, I would have thought even at a small animal practice there would be a vet that could use the gun in such emergency situations if a larger animal required it? seems quite worrying if not.

A small animal practice won't even have a gun, let alone any vets with the appropriate fire arms license. I'm an equine vet in a large (10 vet) mixed practice, we have a gun in our safe but only 3 of the senior large animal vets have their gun license.

Tnavas - you don't use captive bolt in horses, it is a free bullet.

 

[twiggy2]

Very interesting topic, I would have thought even at a small animal practice there would be a vet that could use the gun in such emergency situations if a larger animal required it? seems quite worrying if not.

why would a small animal vet have access to a gun? they are not used in small animal practice
you have to have a gun license to use a gun or carry a gun and a small animal vet would have no need to carry a gun that would be used to destroy a horse and the small animal practice would not have one anyway.
In fact only a very small handful of vets in my area have a gun license and a re licensed to use/carry one. Of the 13 equine vets I know in this area only 2 have a gun license, the advantage is they both use them on a fairly regular basis so are good at using them.

 

[twiggy2]

Totally agree.

Interestingly no one has mentioned the 'humane killer', captive bolt, I would have thought that all vets would have one.

why would all vets have one?

 

[star]

Wow, that opened a can of worms!
Star I also ruled out anti-inflammatories as a viable option (too slow), butorphanol and buprenorphine can be used iv in horses but buprenorphine must be used with an alpha2 as can cause tremors/excitement, I've never tried domitor in horses, would you stock xylazine as an alternative to domidine? Morphine or Ketamine are options but again you need some decent sedation first.
In reality no-one would have got there in time (especially after looking up drugs and doses) but it's an interesting one for the RCVS to consider.

Nope, no xylazine. Leaves options quite limited as horse really just wants decent sedation.

 

[star]

Totally agree.

Interestingly no one has mentioned the 'humane killer', captive bolt, I would have thought that all vets would have one.

Actually I did mention them - they are inhumane in horses and illegal to use in them. It's free bullet or nothing and as none of us small animal vets have any use for a gun licence we don't have one. The thought of a small animal vet going round with a gun is quite ludicrous. Do any of you have any idea how much training and paperwork there is behind getting and keeping a firearms licence and storing a weapon like that let alone having the skill to use it properly and the damage you could cause if used incorrectly. Anyone ever seen a horse shot incorrectly - not pretty I can assure you.

 

[applecart14]

Very interesting post Polonaise, its good that you highlighted this.

It will be a question I will be asking my vet next time I see him out of interest.

 

[applecart14]

Tnavas - you don't use captive bolt in horses, it is a free bullet.

I never knew that, I thought my horse has been pts with captive bolt. My horse had to be shot twice, I wasn't watching but heard the shots, the second one was 15 seconds after the first. When I asked my vet what had happened he said it was normal procedure to shoot big horses twice. I thought that was doubtful at the time but let it pass until about 16 years later when I found someone who was there when my horse was pts (compound fracture tibia) and she said "it was awful what happened to your Miki" and went on to tell me what had happened, the vet had missed teh first time, etc. In all probability the vet was probably trying to save my feelings at the time, but I felt like he had done me a great diservice by doing it 1) wrong and 2) lying to be afterwards.

Sorry to hijack post xxx

 

[Zero00000]

I have just googled vets near Bexley one practice has 16 vets and 20 nurses. I find it astonishing that not one new how to treat a horse in need, shame on them.

Where is this vets? I live in Bexleyheath and do not know such a large vets?

Ive not commented on this subject, A good friend of mine was on site when this happened, no SA vet could have helped, whether they got there in 30 seconds or 15 minutes.

 

[AmyMay]

no vet could have helped, whether they got there in 30 seconds or 15 minutes.

But that's not the issues. The issue is that the practice called refused to attend. They should have.

 

[Zero00000]

An equine vet was on scene a lot quicker than portrayed, there is 1 vet in close proximity to this accident, not quite the 5 minute walk portrayed by another (ever walked from that vets to stable lane?),

I had trouble getting a vet to come out to my home for sick rabbits, on an arranged appt, we do not know the conversations had by WT or the 2 vets she called, or what help was offered or what was asked, its easy to make judgement in hindsight, I personally feel it was of more use the horsey people that sat with the poor horse whilst he passed away than a sa vet with no experience or necessary needs.

I wont talk anymore about this subject, thats my opinion, I just hope the horses owner isnt on here, if it isn't hard enough losing a horse in this completely avoidable circumstance she may be on here sitting back and reading this!

I do agree however with how large the equine community is in Bexley that there should be a few vets that are willing to attend in such circumstances, being the nearest equine vets are up to an hour away.

 

[jrp204]

But that's not the issues. The issue is that the practice called refused to attend. They should have.

Why, if they were unable to do anything what were they going to do? Sit there and watch it die, or even worse attempt with inadequate equipment, drugs and possibly skill to do something which could potentially have been very dangerous and stressful in an already dire situation.
We do not know the full situation. If they had attended and botched a euthenasia or someone got injured there would be a thread on here slating them for that.

 

[AmyMay]

The fact is they wouldn't have been able to save the animals.

However, as the nearest veterinary practice when asked to attend they should have. If to offer nothing more than first aid.

It gets no simpler than that.

 

[martlin]

Why, if they were unable to do anything what were they going to do? Sit there and watch it die,

Yes, basically. I've had this conversation with one of my liveries, who is a small animal vet. She tells me that if they get a call to an RTA involving large animal, they are required to attend, even if to just stand there and say ''Oh dear''.

 

[Aru]

The fact is they wouldn't have been able to save the animals.

However, as the nearest veterinary practice when asked to attend they should have. If to offer nothing more than first aid.

It gets no simpler than that.

But what first aid could a small animal practitioner supply to the horse? Bandaging and wound care maybe at a push if the animal didnt need to be sedated...

Also would you really want to pay someone to come out and offer professional help when they who couldnt euthanise safely,couldnt offer suitable pain medication,might not be safe and comfortable with handling horses......simply because they are close? They could easily end up doing more harm than good.
Main principle of medical ethics....Do no Harm.

They could have went out,for PR purposes they would have been better off going....but what use would it have been to the patient?

 

[AmyMay]

But what first aid could a small animal practitioner supply to the horse? Bandaging and wound care maybe at a push if the animal didnt need to be sedated...

Possibly none, possibly very limited.

However, they should have attended.

 

[Aru]

But there was an equine vet enroute....they were not going to be there immediately true and in an emergency situation it would be very unusual to have a vet there within 10 to 20 minutes unless you were very lucky. But the services of a suitable proffessional had been called and was coming...so the animal was not being refused care by the small animal vets not attending.

 

[AmyMay]

The nearest vet that could possibly have offered assistance (even just moral support) was 5 minutes away. They were asked to attend. They refused. It's irrelevant whether an equine vet was on the way.

 

[Kenzo]

why would a small animal vet have access to a gun? they are not used in small animal practice
you have to have a gun license to use a gun or carry a gun and a small animal vet would have no need to carry a gun that would be used to destroy a horse and the small animal practice would not have one anyway.
In fact only a very small handful of vets in my area have a gun license and a re licensed to use/carry one. Of the 13 equine vets I know in this area only 2 have a gun license, the advantage is they both use them on a fairly regular basis so are good at using them.

I appreciate what you are saying,

I'd just presumed or should I say I wrongly expected any practice would have at least one vet that is able to assist with a firearm given an emergency situation if certain areas don't have large animal practices near by, certainly food for thought, specially for those that could find themselves in the same scenario.

Enlightening post, si it's worth us checking our local vets to know these things.

 

[Amazona]

I am glad this thread has been created
I dont know if you Remember a pony who had an accident galloping through Leeds loose pulling a trap last year.
The pony collided with a roundabout sigh so violently it catapulted him out of his harness .... I was one of the first on the scene and the Police attending called numerous vets to attend to the horse .. his driver who was also seriously injured was enroute to hospital. 3 different vets refused to attend to the police. One only agreed to attend once they had MY credit card details.
I had numerous conversations with the vets , the attending police and BHS horse welfare .... BHS welfare assured me there is a protocol to reimburse any vets who attend an RTA ... Despite telling this the vets over and over again .. they still per sued me for the bill ... I was only a passerby who had horse first aid knowledge so stopped to assist .. I was disgusted with the vets who refused to attend ... why do they work with animals in the first place .. would a doctor refuse a human ????

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

The nearest vet that could possibly have offered assistance (even just moral support) was 5 minutes away. They were asked to attend. They refused. It's irrelevant whether an equine vet was on the way.

This. It is their professional duty to attend and do what they can with the equipment they have and the drugs they have until the equine vet can get there.

 

[Tnavas]

One think that has to be considered here is that in order to claim on most insurance policies a vet has to advise that nothing can be done for the horse therefore it needs to be destroyed. If the horse dies before vet care can be given the vet needs to state that the horse died from the injuries received

 

[FfionWinnie]

They can put sheep down with the same stuff they use on dogs so don't see why they couldn't use it on a horse if it was a dire emergency. I haven't read the story and I don't want to really but if the horse was so ill or badly injured it died in 15 minutes the chances are it wasn't needing much restraining so their lack of ability with large animals is not really a reason not to attend I wouldn't have thought.

 

[Murphy88]

This. It is their professional duty to attend and do what they can with the equipment they have and the drugs they have until the equine vet can get there.

And if they have no equipment and no drugs? Which a small animal practice is unlikely to have. I'm sorry, but if my horse was dying on the side of the road, a person I had never met standing there unable to do anything other than offer 'moral support' would probably just upset me more.

Now, I don't know how the RCVS would view this case, but my understanding of the 'first aid for all species' rule is that you aren't unreasonably allowed to say no if no other vet is available. In this case, another vet was available and on the way. Therefore the small animal practice had no obligation to attend.

Ffion Winnie - a sheep is considerably smaller than a horse. It is not the lack of euthanasia drugs available, it is the not having sufficient quantity.

 

[glenruby]

Judging by recent cases, Ithe small animal vets would be expected to attend. However as others have stated they would not have suitable drugs or equipment to treat. However the RCVS guidelines are clear - they should attend if requested.

 

[Gloi]

I am glad this thread has been created
I dont know if you Remember a pony who had an accident galloping through Leeds loose pulling a trap last year.
The pony collided with a roundabout sigh so violently it catapulted him out of his harness .... I was one of the first on the scene and the Police attending called numerous vets to attend to the horse .. his driver who was also seriously injured was enroute to hospital. 3 different vets refused to attend to the police. One only agreed to attend once they had MY credit card details.
I had numerous conversations with the vets , the attending police and BHS horse welfare .... BHS welfare assured me there is a protocol to reimburse any vets who attend an RTA ... Despite telling this the vets over and over again .. they still per sued me for the bill ... I was only a passerby who had horse first aid knowledge so stopped to assist .. I was disgusted with the vets who refused to attend ... why do they work with animals in the first place .. would a doctor refuse a human ????

That's awful. What happened in the end? Who paid? It was bad enough when I found a seriously injured cat in my garden and took it to the local vets to be pts and got hefty bill for that. I could ill afford it but I couldn't have left it there and there was no reply on the RSPCA line.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

well it was quite a long time ago that I worked in a solely SA practice but they had a gun in the safe.Mind you, both were pretty practical types so am sure they would have stepped in. I've met quite a few SA vets that would have been more of a hindrance tbh but they could have provided moral support/help/professional opinion. I also thought that all vets had to provide emergency care if necessary when I was training as a VN-but that might have changed with the advent of so many SA/cat only practices etc.

Amazona thats just shocking!

 

[twiggy2]

What could a small animal vet have done though?

They would not have any drugs suitable to euthanize a horse or any suitable pain medication or sedatives.. They wouldnt even have had a large enough gauge needle or catheter to give the drugs either.....trying to put down a horse with a dog catheter would be an absolute disaster to be honest and you would likely need to use several bottles of small animal euthanasia solution to put down a horse(im estimating 3 to 4 bottles)....delivering that volume of drug through the wrong size needle or catheter without any sedation if you are not a horse competent person would not be a pleasant situation for anyone involved.

Also if it was a scenario where the horse was not near death but was severely injured what could a small animal vet have done then? They would not have the hands on experience required to deal with equines if they did they would be a mixed or equine practice.Yes we all get do learn the basics in vet school but its the experience in the field that matters. All they could offer was to put the animal to sleep with unsuitable drugs and equipment and they would not be able to offer suitable pain medication. What use is that to a horse or owner in an non critical emergency?

A 100 percent small animal practitioner in an equine emergency would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Waiting for the person with the correct equipment..ie a a mixed practice/ equine vet or a marksman was all that could be done in this scenario

Poor Horse though

please don't pluck figures from thin air
'A 100 percent small animal practitioner in an equine emergency would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot.'

this is not true and neither is much else about your post, I work in a small animal practice and 3 of our vets have extensive equine experience-we also have many of the drugs and equipment needed as we treat pet goats.

I agree that many would not be able to help but your post is inaccurate.

 

[Wishful]

They can put sheep down with the same stuff they use on dogs so don't see why they couldn't use it on a horse if it was a dire emergency. I haven't read the story and I don't want to really but if the horse was so ill or badly injured it died in 15 minutes the chances are it wasn't needing much restraining so their lack of ability with large animals is not really a reason not to attend I wouldn't have thought.

Weight would be the major thing. Sheep weigh maybe twice a large dog. Horses more like 10 times. ..

Panicked dying horse could be VERY dangerous.

 

[Boulty]

From my experience most small animal vets will not stock the appropriate drugs in the appropriate strengths or quantities to administer pain relief to or to euthanase a horse. They may have some form of sedative (ie ketamine or ACP) that could be used in an emergency to calm horse down though. Even if they did have the drug in some form (even a less than ideal one) they wouldn't have the dose rates to hand or even necessarily big enough needles and syringes to give it. If they deal purely in small animals it's likely that although the vets will have handled horses as part of their training this may have been some time ago and they likely won't be confident doing so. Most equine vets will prob take up to 30 mins or more to respond even to an emergency unless they are already nearby just cos of the logistics and making sure there is cover for the rest of their visits etc. Unless it would take an hour or more for an equine vet to reach the scene and small animal vet can do it A LOT quicker (ie in half the time or less) then it is nearly always in the best interests of the horse to wait for the specialist.

 

[Welly]

How did the vets know that they could not help if they did not attend, I am not a doctor but I would not walk past a person needing help.