MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
If your practice treats goats I would say they are not a '100% small animal practitioner'.
Horse left to suffer by small animal vets
- Thread starter Polonaise
- Start date
If your practice treats goats I would say they are not a '100% small animal practitioner'.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
it is pet goats and one vet in the practice only-a legacy as we used to be mixed practice but are not anymore
a few vets round our way are small animal practices and will treat pet goats that come in to the surgery but I get what you are saying
a few vets round our way are small animal practices and will treat pet goats that come in to the surgery but I get what you are saying
Zero00000
Well-Known Member
Because the horses injuries were quite apparent!
AmyMay
Situation normal
Which they hadn't seen, as they refused to attend..................
Aru
Well-Known Member
I didn't pluck figures from the air...I spent a long time thinking of the 100 percent small animal practices I did work experience at and there drugs and equipment they had before I commented....
By 100 percent small animal I ment just that...not a formerly mixed or equine practitioner or a practice that sees small ruminants like goats....I ment a 100 percent small animal just like I stated...
Many of my classmates work in 100 percent small animal practices, some would not be a lot of use with horse as they genuinely hate working with or are afraid of them, they were what I was thinking of when I commented...not those who had horses or used to work with them but the ones who actively chose to do 100 percent small animal work at all times and did the bare minimum on horses and cattle in collage.
I work in mixed practice and have had to put down a horse with Euthathal(the small animal drug of choice) in an emergency situation as there was no other choice. I was lucky as I had the suitable catheters to administer it but it did take 3 and a half bottles(350mls) and thats a hugh volume to try to administer through incorrect equipment or a small needle in the vein,hence my comment on it. We only stock that level of lethal solution as we deal with cattle as well as small animals.
We do not carry a gun or captive bolt in our practice at all and we are a mixed animal practice so I am not at all surprised that a small animal practice would not have access to one.
So I would argue that my post was not inaccurate, its based on my experience in the field.
If I got a call to this sort of situation I would answer immediately, as I have in the past, as I have the equipment needed with me on calls anyway but I think its wrong to expect a 100 percent small animal practitioner to be able to deal with these situations without correct drugs or equipment simply because they are nearby. If there was no one else available then fair enough they can go and see if they can be of any help limited though it may be....but as pointed out beforean equine vet was already enroute in this situation.
By 100 percent small animal I ment just that...not a formerly mixed or equine practitioner or a practice that sees small ruminants like goats....I ment a 100 percent small animal just like I stated...
Many of my classmates work in 100 percent small animal practices, some would not be a lot of use with horse as they genuinely hate working with or are afraid of them, they were what I was thinking of when I commented...not those who had horses or used to work with them but the ones who actively chose to do 100 percent small animal work at all times and did the bare minimum on horses and cattle in collage.
I work in mixed practice and have had to put down a horse with Euthathal(the small animal drug of choice) in an emergency situation as there was no other choice. I was lucky as I had the suitable catheters to administer it but it did take 3 and a half bottles(350mls) and thats a hugh volume to try to administer through incorrect equipment or a small needle in the vein,hence my comment on it. We only stock that level of lethal solution as we deal with cattle as well as small animals.
We do not carry a gun or captive bolt in our practice at all and we are a mixed animal practice so I am not at all surprised that a small animal practice would not have access to one.
So I would argue that my post was not inaccurate, its based on my experience in the field.
If I got a call to this sort of situation I would answer immediately, as I have in the past, as I have the equipment needed with me on calls anyway but I think its wrong to expect a 100 percent small animal practitioner to be able to deal with these situations without correct drugs or equipment simply because they are nearby. If there was no one else available then fair enough they can go and see if they can be of any help limited though it may be....but as pointed out beforean equine vet was already enroute in this situation.
undertheweather
Well-Known Member
These vets want running over and to be left in pain for a while, whilst someone refuses to attend.
"Sorry I only deal with people ran over by Toyotas, not BMWs..."
"Sorry I only deal with people ran over by Toyotas, not BMWs..."
soulfull
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I do find this a bit odd
Would I ring a small animal vet. If I had too
Would I hope they could help. Yes I would hope they could
Would I expect them too. NO absolutely NOT. As they are not generally trained or experienced too
Would I ring a small animal vet. If I had too
Would I hope they could help. Yes I would hope they could
Would I expect them too. NO absolutely NOT. As they are not generally trained or experienced too
Wishful
Well-Known Member
True small animal vets might not even have cars with them at work on a "surgery" day, even at a mixed practice the vet on SA consults and ops would know they're in the practice all day.
Drugs wise the doses will be so different. All vet drugs come in mgs/kg and the smallie drugs will have less mgs/kg so that it is possible to dose a 3kg dog. Big dogs at 50kg might have a different formulation but the quantity of drugs to touch a horse would probably wipe out the stock of most practices.
From what I've picked up ketamine on its own is not good sedation. Needs to be with something else or horse is dangerous to be near. With that something else it can do IM sedation in an emergency but you need the right dose or the situation is worse. An experienced vet might be able to kill a horse with a knife but that's hardly popular or safe. ..
For all the fact that we should care about animals, human safety has to come first - so making things worse and potentially risking damage to humans is not acceptable.
On a related note OH and I have discussed what we'd do if we were out in the wrong car or had emptied his for a holiday and came across a horse related accident on the road. The general assessment is that he'd only be useful for advice from the animal rescue cpd as even a human ambulance wouldn't have much kit which would be useful as there's limited drug commonality and horses can have some interesting reactions to sedation that works fine in other species.
Drugs wise the doses will be so different. All vet drugs come in mgs/kg and the smallie drugs will have less mgs/kg so that it is possible to dose a 3kg dog. Big dogs at 50kg might have a different formulation but the quantity of drugs to touch a horse would probably wipe out the stock of most practices.
From what I've picked up ketamine on its own is not good sedation. Needs to be with something else or horse is dangerous to be near. With that something else it can do IM sedation in an emergency but you need the right dose or the situation is worse. An experienced vet might be able to kill a horse with a knife but that's hardly popular or safe. ..
For all the fact that we should care about animals, human safety has to come first - so making things worse and potentially risking damage to humans is not acceptable.
On a related note OH and I have discussed what we'd do if we were out in the wrong car or had emptied his for a holiday and came across a horse related accident on the road. The general assessment is that he'd only be useful for advice from the animal rescue cpd as even a human ambulance wouldn't have much kit which would be useful as there's limited drug commonality and horses can have some interesting reactions to sedation that works fine in other species.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
so it would be correct to say 100% in your personal 1st hand experience not 100%.
PucciNPoni
Well-Known Member
We were discussing this in the practice where I work. We "might" have enough pentoject on a given day, but very unlikely to have the right gauge needle and large enough syringe. Also depending on the time of day, it could be very likely that there wouldn't be enough personnel around to go to a call (ie could be in the middle of an operation and in which case the first priority is the animal in front of them). Some of the vets I work with haven't seen a horse in practice since vet school more than 20 years ago. Would you necessarily want that for your horse? I wouldn't!
I think there are far too many variables that could or did happen - but the story didn't really give the vet's side of the story.
I think there are far too many variables that could or did happen - but the story didn't really give the vet's side of the story.
Capriole
Well-Known Member
Surely he/she is using the term '100 percent small animal practice/practitioner' to describe those practices and vets that are exclusively small animal. Not that 100% of all small animal vets/practices would be useless in this situation. That's how it read to me anyway.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
hayinamanger
Well-Known Member
Exactly
SusieT
Well-Known Member
To be totally honest, they would have been as much use as a chocolate teapot in an equine emergency, but the small animal vet should have attended, and provided a professional view of the situation as much as anything else. They may not have wanted to but they shuold have. Was there no farm practice locally? They would be more use!
PucciNPoni
Well-Known Member
^^I think the issue was that the nearest equine vet was about 45 minutes away - whether that means there was a vet that was nearby but 45 minutes away from being able to get there for one reason or another it's impossible to say from the brief article.
And a small animal vet may have also been in a similar position, ie wait room full of people with pets to be seen with their own emergencies, a dog in theatre with a pyo ready to be operated on, elbows deep in a dental. Just because the small animal practice is right there does not mean they can just drop everything then to go to a call for an animal that they have little to no practical experience in dealing with.
Several months back a friend was turning horses out - one horse somehow managed to get injured to the point of needing veterinary treatment. The owner was away and couldn't be contacted. Her own vet was several hours drive away. It was a sunday and trying to find a vet was a nightmare as they were having a day off and the vets covering already busy doing other calls.
I mentioned that to one of the vets I work with - told her I nearly called her (on her day off too - and she, by her own admission is "not good with horses") and she replied that she would have come - but it wouldn't have been ideal - no equipment sufficient to properly stitch up or the right dosages to sedate if required.
In the end an equine vet did arrive (hours later) and fortunately it wasn't a life threatening injury. But it certainly got me to thinking - would I want to call one of my vet friends if I was desperate? IF they said to me "I'll come but I'm not sure if I can do it" I would hesitate! Though having said that, there are a few vets I work with equine practice experience so I would beg one of them if necessary.
And a small animal vet may have also been in a similar position, ie wait room full of people with pets to be seen with their own emergencies, a dog in theatre with a pyo ready to be operated on, elbows deep in a dental. Just because the small animal practice is right there does not mean they can just drop everything then to go to a call for an animal that they have little to no practical experience in dealing with.
Several months back a friend was turning horses out - one horse somehow managed to get injured to the point of needing veterinary treatment. The owner was away and couldn't be contacted. Her own vet was several hours drive away. It was a sunday and trying to find a vet was a nightmare as they were having a day off and the vets covering already busy doing other calls.
I mentioned that to one of the vets I work with - told her I nearly called her (on her day off too - and she, by her own admission is "not good with horses") and she replied that she would have come - but it wouldn't have been ideal - no equipment sufficient to properly stitch up or the right dosages to sedate if required.
In the end an equine vet did arrive (hours later) and fortunately it wasn't a life threatening injury. But it certainly got me to thinking - would I want to call one of my vet friends if I was desperate? IF they said to me "I'll come but I'm not sure if I can do it" I would hesitate! Though having said that, there are a few vets I work with equine practice experience so I would beg one of them if necessary.
princestar
Well-Known Member
This happened 5 minutes up the road from me. The local paper actually put pictures of the dying horse with (if I remember correctly ) two broken legs, laying in front of a crumpled van.
Our nearest large animal/equine vet is Bell Equine.
But I am appalled to hear our local vets refused to come out to the horse and do their duty of care for animals! I do hope that some action is taken, we live in a built up area that does have a lot of horses here. Unfortunately serious accidents happen but we should have peace of mind knowing we have local veterinary practices that can help out.
Not only did a horse die on the road, undoubtedly in agony, but those people that hit the horse, passersby, yard staff and employees and the poor horse's owner will have also suffered during those painfully sad last moments.
At the end of the day, those vets went to university to become a blooming vet. To help animals.
Its like a doctor refusing to help a person who had been run over, because he was not a paramedic!
Our nearest large animal/equine vet is Bell Equine.
But I am appalled to hear our local vets refused to come out to the horse and do their duty of care for animals! I do hope that some action is taken, we live in a built up area that does have a lot of horses here. Unfortunately serious accidents happen but we should have peace of mind knowing we have local veterinary practices that can help out.
Not only did a horse die on the road, undoubtedly in agony, but those people that hit the horse, passersby, yard staff and employees and the poor horse's owner will have also suffered during those painfully sad last moments.
At the end of the day, those vets went to university to become a blooming vet. To help animals.
Its like a doctor refusing to help a person who had been run over, because he was not a paramedic!
Mince Pie
Well-Known Member
Actually Princestar, it's not. A doctor and a paramedic both work on the same species - and both will have equipment to deal with a human's injuries.
I personally am with the vets on this one, the only thing they would have been able to do is tell the people around them that the horse is badly injured and needs PTS, but they can't do it because they don't have the quantity or the drugs needed or the correct equipment to administer them - what use it that? Hell you may as well ring the police ARU and get them to shoot the horse, or a local gamekeeper, rather than a S.A vet.
I personally am with the vets on this one, the only thing they would have been able to do is tell the people around them that the horse is badly injured and needs PTS, but they can't do it because they don't have the quantity or the drugs needed or the correct equipment to administer them - what use it that? Hell you may as well ring the police ARU and get them to shoot the horse, or a local gamekeeper, rather than a S.A vet.
doriangrey
Well-Known Member
I agree, if they could practically do something then fair enough, but if they couldn't what would be the point?
PucciNPoni
Well-Known Member
My thoughts exactly, re gamekeeper or police....
We simply are not hearing the whole story, just the sensationalise version of it I reckon.
Finlib
Well-Known Member
I had a situation where an elderly mare while galloping around the field with her fellow horses lost her footing and crashed to the ground she got up but it was very obvious she had broken her leg high up near the shoulder.
It was 6pm on a bank holiday Monday in May some 8 years ago.
I rang my horse vet immediately he was out on an emergency colic. He gave me the mobile numbers of 2 local hunt kennels and told me to ring them .
The mare was 35 years old so there was nothing to be done but pts. I am sure a younger horse was the same outcome.
The kennel man arrived in 15 minutes and did the job kindly and quietly.
I think I would have been looking to contact hunt knacker man or gamekeeper to pts the horse .I certainly didn't think it was worth ringing a small animal vet even though there were 2 quite close
It was 6pm on a bank holiday Monday in May some 8 years ago.
I rang my horse vet immediately he was out on an emergency colic. He gave me the mobile numbers of 2 local hunt kennels and told me to ring them .
The mare was 35 years old so there was nothing to be done but pts. I am sure a younger horse was the same outcome.
The kennel man arrived in 15 minutes and did the job kindly and quietly.
I think I would have been looking to contact hunt knacker man or gamekeeper to pts the horse .I certainly didn't think it was worth ringing a small animal vet even though there were 2 quite close
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
Well-Known Member
Yes, I think I would have rung kennels in this situation.
MudMudGloriousMud
Well-Known Member
I'm in 2 minds about the situation, I can't blame the S.A vets for not attending, but at the same time a flat 'no' to a request to attend is at best rather rude.
My partner and I have gun licences, and my father was a very good shot in his day, so we would be able to deal with a terminal situation such as this, but if we didn't have a gun available my first port of call would be the local hunt/knackers/friend with firearm.
My heart goes out to all of those involved with this awful situation.
Mel
My partner and I have gun licences, and my father was a very good shot in his day, so we would be able to deal with a terminal situation such as this, but if we didn't have a gun available my first port of call would be the local hunt/knackers/friend with firearm.
My heart goes out to all of those involved with this awful situation.
Mel
soot
Well-Known Member
This isn't what's currently on BBC 1 traffic police, is it?
... Can't cope with the thought of the suffering I'm seeing on tv right now, poor horse, poor owners, devastating. Thank god driver ok.
... Can't cope with the thought of the suffering I'm seeing on tv right now, poor horse, poor owners, devastating. Thank god driver ok.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Just watching that too, its a different incident. Very hard to watch yes, but quite relevant to this post, particular with regard to the delay in the vet getting there, and the fact that police were about to call in fire arms officers. Thoughts to the owners and all those involved.
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
Am watching as well - as tragic as it is (and definately echo the thoughts to the owners) I'm kinda pleased that they've shown it on the programme as it shows the amount of damage hitting a horse does to the horse and to the car, hopefully make a few people think about giving horses a bit more space.