Horse Losing Condition

[dominobrown]

I recently posted on here about changing my horse's diet, to a sugar free one.
He is currently on (x2 a day)...
- 1 stubbs scoop of alfalfa oil
- 1 and a half mugs of blue chip (half pint mug)
- 1 smaller scoop of Speedi beet
- superflex
and ad-lib haylage
He was on restore but has finished the course.
However he has lost a bit of condition. He wasn't doing well before but has lost a bit of muscle. He isn't doing much work due to the weather which has contributed to this.
I recently got a £200 vet fee as he had a full MOT. His bloods were really good, and his skin rash is some sort of bacterial infection, that he has speacial shampoo for, however due to the horrible weather he hasn't had many baths!

Anything you would add to his feed for condition? I am still not happy with him, and ALOT poorer!
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=495507
previous post

 

[Jnhuk]

I would speak to one of the equine nutritionists for free advice. However, I have used baileys No1 when I needed to put/keep condition on one of my elderly horses through the winter

http://www.baileyshorsefeeds.co.uk/whatproduct/general/no1.htm

 

[be positive]

He is not really on any feed that will put weight on him, the Alpha may not suit him, could be contributing to his skin condition and Blue Chip is just an expensive supplement imo.
I would contact Allen and Page for advice, they do a good range of feed that is good for intolerances and is fibre based, mine are all on Fast Fibre as a base instead of HiFi or Alpha and have done really well on it, you can feed a lot more and it is low starch and sugar.

 

[Echo Bravo]

My lot are on Winergy Low Energy and have been for several years and they have all done really well on it. Rocco when I bought him was skin and bone and 2 years later he's a fine stamp of a horse and my foal is 50/50 winergy and youngstock and he's doing very well. It is High Fibre and I pay roughly £12 per bag per horse each week and worth every penny and I wouldn't change it.

 

[dominobrown]

I know that the alfa has nothing to do with his skin condition, as he had the skin condition before he was on it and the vet did a skin scraping and identified what was causing his skin condition, a bacteria, and it is improving as I have disinfected all his rugs etc.
I think about feeding micronized barley straight and making him some linseed jelly or something, but cereala are bad for horses now. arrghhh!
Fast fibre- is says its for good doers who can be over excitable, which my horse isn't.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We feed a very simple diet.
Dried grass, grassnuts and speedibeet in varying quantities according to need. Our oldie has a scoop of grassnuts, mixed with a scoop of Graze-on and soaked with a double handful of Speedibeet, with Pink Powder, biotin and glucosamine. She also has a trug of Graze-on because she won't eat much haylage these days. She has put some weight on recently, which we are very pleased about. Those who are trying to lose weight only have a handful of Graze-on to carry the PinkPowder.
This is the most natural diet that a stabled horse can eat and because it is mostly unbranded, it is cheap. I have fed alfalfa in the past but it doesn't suit all horses. I am always wary of feeding cereals as I find that they can easily upset horses' digestion.

 

[Firewell]

Maybe scrap the beet and balancer and add the recommended amount of calm and condition to the Alfa a oil?! C&C has no molasses and only 12% starch which is lower than my fibre nuts.
Or try oat and barley free by falcon feeds, that's also a conditioning performance feed and that also has no molasses and only 12% starch.

Equijewel by Saracen is also a brilliant weight gain supplement but it is expensive!!

If he was mine I'd probably try the Alfa a oil, C&C and a few glugs of supermarket oil first

 

[savvyblue]

I own a poor doer tb x (22yo) and have tried a variety of feeds and supplements to find had no effect.

I have taken him barefoot behind and so i wanted to feed for the feet.

he is currently on:
pony nuts and speedi beet and pink powder (fed at concentrate amount)
along with his joint supplement.

He is still living out on decent grazing with access to adlib hay in field ( averages 2 round bales in ring feeder a week between 7 horses)

He is putting on weight, he has a huge belly now and his topline especially over his back and quarters are improving.

 

[AmyMay]

Is there a reason why you are not feeding a cube alongside what you already feed him?

A conditioning cube is where I'd start.

 

[Kokopelli]

Can't agree more with a conditioning cube of some description, it really does help put on weight.

Straights are another route to look at, I had my poor doer (who wintered awfully last year) on them this winter and he hasn't lost any weight and looks very healthy.

 

[tallyho!]

Linseed?

 

[Changes]

Add cooked barley - cereals are NOT bad for you horse fed correctly and relevant to workload/condition. You are already feeding a balancer with the necessary daily vit/min levels, so a straight is better than overloading with more vit/min with another manufactured food.

 

[Mince Pie]

Have a look at the Rowan and Barbery solutions mash:
http://www.rowenbarbary.co.uk/horse_feed_product/36

 

[Equimo]

what type of bloods were taken? did they do a metabolic profile? if not, get it done. sounds very similar to my lad who lost condition before laminitis got him. he had EMS, insulin got terribly out of control. he never recovered, we lost him in summer. if i'd seen it coming sooner, it might have been a different outcome
Are his orbits swollen at all? (depressions above eyes.)

 

[Frozen Hoof Boots]

My 16'3 WB is a very poor doer over winter however I've finally seen to have it right to keep his weight on. He's v sensitive to starch and sugars which if high sends him into a freaking nut job.
He's on the following twice a day:
1 x scoop Baileys no4
1/2 x scoop Alfalfa-A oil
1 cup EquiJewel
PP and RelaxMe

Plus (winter) 1 x wet scoop Speedibeet

I really rate Baileys no 4 as he's put on 100k in 8 months as he list so.much last winter.

Hope that helps

 

[TigerTail]

For a poor doer I strongly recommend Thunderbrooks. Ring Debbie, the nutrionist for a chat, there are no fillers or binders in her feeds so what you are buying is all an active necessary ingredient unlike the big name feeds.
I had the basemix and bran, and the oldie had live oats for a bit more calories. There is no worrying over adding this or that to it because its complete.

I kept mine,6, and a 16yr old on it last yr, living out in -15 and not enough forage (not my fault) and they came out looking amazing, not a rib in sight unlike my friends who were on speedibeat and A+P who looked like hat racks.

http://www.thunderbrook.co.uk/

 

[kit279]

I have been feeding Pure Feeds - initially I bought it because it was on special offer and I have to say that I am totally sold on the stuff. My black horse is just unbelievably hard to keep condition on during the winter and he is just blooming on the stuff, is almost fat and his coat is in really nice condition.

Seriously, give this stuff a try. It takes a bit of nerve to completely stop feeding cereals and start feeding what looks like chopped up grass (I was so pissed when I got the bag, I was like 'I've been had!!!') but it has actually worked better than anything I've tried before. I spent last winter syphoning sugarbeet, oil, barley, linseed, everything I could think of into this horse and the thing that has worked best has been this Pure Condition stuff.

 

[TGM]

I think part of your problem may be the quantities you are feeding. Although Alfa A Oil and Speedibeet have as many calories (dry weight) as a lot of conditioning cubes and mixes, it is easy to underfeed if you rely on scoops. Because of the fluffy chaff texture of Alfa A Oil, a Stubbs scoop only weighs about 400-500g, where a similar scoop of a more dense product like cubes will often weigh twice as much. Similarly with Speedibeet, if you measure it out with a scoop after soaking you are including all the soaking water as well!

 

[Holly Hocks]

Hi Domino - I would try the new Solutions Mash by Rowan Barbary. It's less than 1% sugar, 4.75 starch, but is supposed to be good for condition - it also has no cereals in. If you e-mail them they will send you a sample - I did, and I got one.

 

[Rueysmum]

Is there a reason why you are not feeding a cube alongside what you already feed him?

A conditioning cube is where I'd start.

I agree with this. Your "menu" reminds me of a roast dinner with all the trimmings but without the meat. There's nothing wrong with what you are giving him, but if I were you I would also get him on some kind of cube, add some oil to his feed and pink powder.

 

[Mlini]

If he was mine I'd probably try the Alfa a oil, C&C and a few glugs of supermarket oil first

Mine gets this. Worked wonders for him

 

[AMH]

Have a look at this - YO swears by it for a dressage horse which is sharp and hard to keep in condition. Non-heating and not full of nasty concentrates

http://www.stanceequine.com/horsefeedproducts.php?CoolStance-Copra-2

 

[dominobrown]

Thanks for the ideas. I am still quite cynical about feeding horses, most of it seems to be down to fashion or good advertising!
I have upped his rations a bot but a horse's stomach is only the size of rugby ball, so I can't physically feed him much more.
He is on Alfa- oil and a little bit of veg oil too.
He insulin levels etc are fine, and he isn't on death's door by no means, I think he is missing the grass which has been replaced by mud
I think what I am going to do is probably by him some conditioning mix or baileys no 1 or equivlant.
Although pure feeds etc sound tempting there are no stockists near me and I would prefer to get feed from my local feed merchant. The same with the other brands. I don't really want suggestions for a particular brand, but more what is missing and I will find an equivlant.
So in conclusion... I am still confused. The outcome of my last post was that cereals and sugars were bad, and horses didn't need them. I was worried that alfa and balancer wasn't enough, and now I am being told it isn't, that he does need cereals etc.
What I really need is a 20 acre mud free field full of grass!!

 

[AmyMay]

What you need is calories. Feeding boiled barley is a cheap and nutritious way to feed horses. And you can increase the ration by adding extra meals....

 

[dominobrown]

so what about micronized barley, its more or less the same stuff and easier to feed. I thought alfa and oil were high in calories however. He gets feed twice a day and due to work etc, he can't get another feed.

 

[TigerTail]

I completely agree with not upping his present ration too much - a massive bucket feed doesnt do their tums any good at all.

The thunderbrooks I recommended isnt just another brand, its a totally different sort of feed, please do have a read around the website as from your other comments it sounds like it would make sense to you.

They deliver and it lasts forever, its so good the portion sizes are tiny, another thing I like about it as you arent stuffing a trickle feeders tum.

 

[TGM]

I have upped his rations a bot but a horse's stomach is only the size of rugby ball, so I can't physically feed him much more.
....
So in conclusion... I am still confused. The outcome of my last post was that cereals and sugars were bad, and horses didn't need them. I was worried that alfa and balancer wasn't enough, and now I am being told it isn't, that he does need cereals etc.

The thing is, though, if you are feeding a chaff type feed, a lot of the scoop is actually air between the chopped stalks, so when the chaff is actually masticated and in the stomach it takes up a lot less room! Also, if you are giving a cereal-free diet, then you don't have to worry about undigested starch being pushed through to the hindgut, which is why you have to restrict the size of cereal based feeds. In addition, horses usually eat fibre-based meals more slowly than traditional concentrates. If you think about it, we don't worry about whether we are feeding too much hay or haylage in one go, because it is a fibre feed.

However, it is true that some horses don't seem to have a big enough appetite to munch through tons of fibre bucket feeds, and cereal-based feeds often tempt horses to consume more calories. However, whilst some horses do seem to do well on cereals, some are starch sensitive and can have problems with laminitis, tying up, or just general excitability, so you have to weight up the pros and cons for each individual horse.

Another option is oil-rich feeds (like linseed for example) because fat is very dense in calories, which is useful when you are restricted by how many times a day you can feed.

Is he stabled at night? If so, you could consider feeding some grass chaff or soaked grass nuts alongside his nightly haylage, as studies have shown that horses consume a greater quantity of forage if they have a choice of different types to pick at.

 

[dominobrown]

Thanks TGM thats really helpful

 

[Cuffey]

If your horse keeps condition well on grass--try grass pellets

I soak them with Speedibeet and feed with chop--Alfa A or Lite and a handful of Hi Fibre cubes (I dont have a horse which loses weight, although he used to in hard work)

To put flesh/muscle on you need protein not just 'empty' calories--think athletes diet, and why an earlier poster was recommended copra--20% protein

Analysis here
http://www.northerncropdriers.co.uk/product/grazeon-pellets

 

[TGM]

To put flesh/muscle on you need protein not just 'empty' calories--think athletes diet, and why an earlier poster was recommended copra--20% protein

The poster's current diet is unlikely to be deficient in protein as Blue Chip is high in protein, Alfa A Oil is 14% protein and the horse is on haylage which is retains much of the protein content of fresh grass. Whilst it is true that protein is needed to build muscle, there is no advantage in feeding more protein than the horse needs.

I do agree with the recommendation of grass pellets though!