Horse Meat Saga... I am so going to be shot down for saying this...

Queenbee

Queenbee

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I was laid in bed the other night, musing as you do! I cam across a thought that I am not entirely sure sits ok with me but it does seem the way to go in many ways.

We have the current situation:

Major issues within the abbatoirs, with only five abbatoirs in the UK that are licensed to kill horses one can in a way understand why they have slipped under the radar with regards to welfare and regulations.

Currently we are in an economic crisis which is resulting in a significant amount of horses being abandoned, sanctuaries are full to the brim and can't accommodate these horses, they are becoming welfare issues, the suffering of the horses is becoming a major issue.

As said, we are in an economic crisis, people are suffering as a result, my own father is seeing it daily, he is (as a lawyer) being called to represent people being arrested for stealing joints of mear and nappies - just seeing this reality is breaking his heart. As it stands, horse meat is 1/4 of the price of beef.


Imagine buying a lasagna that not only contained horse meat but was labelled and priced to match.

Many people are coming onto our screens saying it is the deception, not the meat that ticks them off, horse meat is excuse the pun 'hard for me to stomach' but not dangerous per-say and with many people coming across as 'okay' with the idea of eating horse meat, would now not be a time to embrace it?

I am a horse lover and I am loathed to say that, but we are at a crisis point in every way:

  • Horse numbers are at a crisis
  • Horse welfare organisations are at crisis point
  • Human economy is at crisis point
  • Human attitude towards Horse Meat is actually at a point where it would welcome the option of such meat at its lower price.

I truly never ever thought I may even say or consider this, but would it not change and better so many things?

It would provide the need and incentive for more stringent regulations in abbatoirs, us human beans would have cheaper options for food in very harsh economic times, it would address the overpopulation of horses and help get it under control.

I am sooooo aware that what I say is shocking to some and as I have said, no one is more shocked than I am that I have suddenly started thinking like this and voiced this, but is this not a sane option for all involved?
 
Personally I would not eat horse meat, given the choice, but I have absolutely no problem with it being eaten so long as the animals are cared for in life properly and then transported and slaughtered appropriately when the time comes.

Still churns my stomach a bit though.
 
Just one point, people steal joints of meat and nappies because they are relatively high value items that can easily be sold on. they are also not usually security tagged. Nappies are often used to conceal the meat in trolleys and make it easier for the thief to steal. Most of this is sold to fund drug habits, please don't feel sorry for them, I see it everyday and it is often quite highly organised.
 
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I was very surprised that horsemeat was deemed cheap and used as a filler to be honest I had always seen it as elitist and expensive. I have no issue in eating or seeing advertised any meat but I would say the labeling should be accurate.
I dont even have an issue with them saying the lasagne is 100% meat not necessarily even saying horsemeat.
Guess I would be more alarmed if they started using unfit meat whatever species that may be
 
Well if horse meat was going to have to go through the same rigorous processes that beef has to go through then it would not be any cheaper to produce.

No, it would not sit comfortably for me to go to my local butcher or supermarket and see horsemeat on sale any more than it would dog!
 
Everyone has different opinions. Mine is that indiscriminate breeding should stop.

I have no wish to eat Horse and don't like the idea of farmed horsemeat either. I appreciate I am probably in the minority though.

However, if people wish to eat horsemeat then it should be labelled clearly, not disguised as beef.
 
I for one am in agreement with so many others that horses being slaughtered is perfectly acceptable, but I wouldn't eat horsemeat myself the same as I wouldn't eat cat or badger. Cattle and sheep farming is one thing, but horses are a whole other kettle of fish for a lot of different reasons.

Personally I wonder if horse meat being labelled and sold as such in the UK would lead to higher thefts and rookie horse farming which would cause new legislations and almighty welfare related uproar in a country already riddled with careless breeders. On top of that, horses are expensive to keep, not only for the grazing but also for the injuries which come with life in a large herd, that's without the DEFRA regulations which come with cattle being imposed on horses too, and therefore I don't think the cost/value would be lower than beef either.
 
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It makes me feel sick at the possible thought I may have consumed horse meat. I am avoiding all beef products at the moment, only eaten carlucios lasagnas so I will be horrified if they declare horsemeat in their food.
 
I'm loath to say that I do actually agree with you, it would be a way to help people and embrace, as other countries have, horse meat within the British society. I have a problem with this every day, human welfare or animal welfare, which is more important? And I always end up falling on side with human, because although it is desperately hard for me to walk past a starving horse, I find it even more difficult to walk past a starving family. Animal welfare charities are brimming over with the amount of abandoned and malnourished pets however we have to remember that human charities are as well. It is a time of economic downfall that is affecting everyone and I must say that legalising horse meat could save many families that are living on the poverty line. However on the opposite side of this there is also the worry that horses would become like cattle and sheep, mass produced and with little or no thought put to their welfare. Once they become a food source will the legislation change to accompany the fact that horses are kept as pets as well as then being a meat source? It is a line that should be trodden very carefully, and with consideration to both sides.
 
The problem with the horse meat scandal is not the eating of horse meat per say, rather the fact it has been FRAUDULENTLY sold as beef.

Further more, paper work and red tape make life very hard indeed for farmers like me, so why the hell should the food processors get away with throwing any scabby old donkey in the mix to bulk it out.

These animals are cheap meat because they are NOT produced for a carcass and stringent paper work etc has not been done.

Had they been reared for meat, they would be worth the same or more as beef. The whole thing is a scam and has been going on for a very long time. There is no positive to draw from this.

Horses languishing in rescue centres etc are not likely to be fit for human consumption anyway. You cannot know if they have had a drug which is banned from the food chain if there is no traceability. Passports mean nothing.
 
Ask any beef farmer about the DEFRA regualtions and the oceans of paperwork that they have to keep upto date. Imagine that imposed on our pastime. Imagine a routine wormer costing £80 because you had to get a DEFRA vet out to administer it. Because sure as hell, if horse was to be eaten in this country, the regulations would make keeping horses, unless being farmed for a profit, untenable. The only way to address the excess number of horses is to stop them being bred in the first place. Racing already sends it's surplus to the slaughterhouse, it's time to stop the huge numbers of coloured cobs that seem to graze in every other field from being bred, but seeing as how they are most unlikely to even have a passport, I'm sure their owners are not going to listen.
 
Oooh!! A large can of worms...... I would not choose to eat horse meat, nor would I choose to eat rabbit or squirrel etc. Obviously other countries see it as the norm to do so just as Korea eat dogs and South America eat Guinea pigs and China, well they eat just about anything!! I think (I well may be wrong) in France where horse meat is readily available they breed the likes of Percheron etc, big chunky horses that mature early for the meat market. What's the point of breeding light weight stock when payment may well be on weight?
I do not have issue with horses going for slaughter for the food chain (not a route I would choose for mine) but I do feel that no animal should need to leave this country, or any other in fact, alive. In today's world of chilled and refridgerated vehicles, live export is not necessary at all IMO.
The biggest problem has been the shutting down of many of this country's abattoirs causing our animals having to travel great distances, even abroad, and this should be readdressed for the welfare good of all livestock.
The passport debacle also needs serious addressing, after all farmers are stringically ruled with tagging, movement controls, medication monitoring etc, why are horses not? because they are not classed as agricultural!
 
I can't quote as I'm on my phone, but to the person who said everyone who steals nappies are doing so for drug money... I am ashamed to admit I have stolen nappies on occasion. Due to the breakdown of my relationship I suddenly found myself in a horrific financial mess, I genuinely could not afford nappies and was too proud to ask for help. I can only thank god I chose to breastfeed and my baby was young enough to be breastfed as it meant he never went without. I lost around two stone because I couldn't afford to eat, nappies were more of a nesscesity, and I am shamed to admit that I have stolen them.

I am back on my feet now though, and to answer the OP... I like cows, sheep, rabbits and pigs, I think they are cute and love taking my toddler to petting zoos etc to clap them... And we eat lamb, beef, rabbit, bacon, pork... So although it might take me a while to get my head round it, if horse meat was sold as horsemeat (or given a new name :P ) I would probably come round to the idea of eating it.

We are humans, evolved to eat meat, and as long as it wasn't people's pets I was eating but animals farmed for slaughter then I like to think if be ok with it!
 
Going to reply to you all as I agree with bits of everything you have said

3~2~1 said:
Personally I would not eat horse meat, given the choice, but I have absolutely no problem with it being eaten so long as the animals are cared for in life properly and then transported and slaughtered appropriately when the time comes.

Still churns my stomach a bit though.
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I agree, would never want to eat horse meat... cant deal with the idea of doing that. But agree it is a reality, and if we as a culture embrace it we should have the ability to better regulate all sectors of it.

peteralfred said:
not sure there are that many that would disagree in principle here BUT many leisure horses have bute at some stage-these are not animals farmed for meat.
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Agree, theoretically passports should cover that although recent media has shown what I have long suspected - the system fails and needs a lot of work to deal with this.

lhotse said:
Just one point, people steal joints of meat and nappies because they are relatively high value items that can easily be sold on. they are also not usually security tagged. Nappies are often used to conceal the meat in trolleys and make it easier for the thief to steal. Most of this is sold to fund drug habits, please don't feel sorry for them, I see it everyday and it is often quite highly organised.
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I get exactly what you are saying, but believe me, my father has worked int his field for years and many 'repeat customers' to defend and these are not them, these people are desperate, he is well aware of the difference and that is what is so apparent at the moment. People who are suffering are being driven to steal everyday items, I used joints of meat and nappies as an example, but we could talk baby milk, tins of food, staple foods etc... he is seeing desperate family people stealing their weekly shopping and it is harrowing.

windand rain said:
I was very surprised that horsemeat was deemed cheap and used as a filler to be honest I had always seen it as elitist and expensive. I have no issue in eating or seeing advertised any meat but I would say the labeling should be accurate.
I dont even have an issue with them saying the lasagne is 100% meat not necessarily even saying horsemeat.
Guess I would be more alarmed if they started using unfit meat whatever species that may be
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I was also surprised that it is cheaper, but I suppose it is all to do with the fact that in this country it is not in demand. I personally do have issue with the misrepresentation, it is fraud by any other name and as I said in another thread if I buy a beef burger I expect it to be beef, but agree with you, if it is labelled a meat burger, I accept that it could be any meat. However I do not believe any of the dishes were labelled as 'meat' they were labelled as 'beef'

Wheels said:
Well if horse meat was going to have to go through the same rigorous processes that beef has to go through then it would not be any cheaper to produce.

No, it would not sit comfortably for me to go to my local butcher or supermarket and see horsemeat on sale any more than it would dog!
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I agree it may not be as cheap as it is but actually legally it should be going through those process and is being charged as if it has. The bottom line is that it is not as popular and popularity dictated the price more than anything, If it became more accepted as a food source then the price would inflate.

deicinmerlyn said:
Everyone has different opinions. Mine is that indiscriminate breeding should stop.
Could not agree mroe

I have no wish to eat Horse and don't like the idea of farmed horsemeat either. I appreciate I am probably in the minority though.
Again I agree, but currently there is an overabundance of unwanted horses
However, if people wish to eat horsemeat then it should be labelled clearly, not disguised as beef.Never a truer word said
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I know what you mean :( I chucked out some pate the other day... I just looked at it and thought ?????
 
I'm not actually sure it would solve the problem with surplus horses. The current meat value horses that are abandoned/ neglected/ ran through every low end sale going, or the cheap ones from private buyers wouldn't be deemed suitable for human consumption. Much like if I bought a calf or lamb, without any of the necessary paperwork, I couldn't just sell it into the food chain. And done properly, as already said, horsemeat would no longer be cheap. I have huge objections to the way cheap meat is factory farmed now, pigs & chickens especially. Last thing I'd want is yet another animal being factory farmed, horse or otherwise. And tbh the poverty aspect is irrelevant. Meat isn't a necessary part of a diet, even cheap meat is more expensive than other protein & iron sources, so if people can't afford ethically raised meat they can do without as far as I'm concerned.
 
Horses dealt with humanely and had a decent life, sold for food I don't have a problem with. Eating horse without choosing to I have a problem with.
 
Disposable nappies are not an essential, they were never used when I was a kid, I still have a nappypin in my possession from when I was a baby. My friends in France can't afford disposable nappies, so they use washable ones instead.
As for farmed meat horses, one word.
Amersham.
 
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Natti said:
I'm loath to say that I do actually agree with you, it would be a way to help people and embrace, as other countries have, horse meat within the British society. I have a problem with this every day, human welfare or animal welfare, which is more important? And I always end up falling on side with human, because although it is desperately hard for me to walk past a starving horse, I find it even more difficult to walk past a starving family. Animal welfare charities are brimming over with the amount of abandoned and malnourished pets however we have to remember that human charities are as well. It is a time of economic downfall that is affecting everyone and I must say that legalising horse meat could save many families that are living on the poverty line. However on the opposite side of this there is also the worry that horses would become like cattle and sheep, mass produced and with little or no thought put to their welfare. Once they become a food source will the legislation change to accompany the fact that horses are kept as pets as well as then being a meat source? It is a line that should be trodden very carefully, and with consideration to both sides.
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I completely agree, there is a lot of red tape that would come with that sort of transition, but with it it would hopefully bring better regulations and hopefully welfare for any horses that are farmed over here. Just because the british culture does not embrace horse meat currently does not mean there are not horse farms over her right now, at the very least it would have an affect on these

FfionWinnie said:
The problem with the horse meat scandal is not the eating of horse meat per say, rather the fact it has been FRAUDULENTLY sold as beef.

Further more, paper work and red tape make life very hard indeed for farmers like me, so why the hell should the food processors get away with throwing any scabby old donkey in the mix to bulk it out.

These animals are cheap meat because they are NOT produced for a carcass and stringent paper work etc has not been done.

Had they been reared for meat, they would be worth the same or more as beef. The whole thing is a scam and has been going on for a very long time. There is no positive to draw from this.

Horses languishing in rescue centres etc are not likely to be fit for human consumption anyway. You cannot know if they have had a drug which is banned from the food chain if there is no traceability. Passports mean nothing.
Click to expand...

I am not saying it is not a scam, I agree it is. I do not agree that horse meat would cost the same as beef, because alongside 'cost' there is 'want' and horse meat would not be as desirable as beef, certainly to begin with. I also did not suggest that we start hauling horses from charities and shooting them for consumption, I am talking about the animals that enter the sales, or that owners are unable to pass on because there is no where to take them

lhotse said:
Ask any beef farmer about the DEFRA regualtions and the oceans of paperwork that they have to keep upto date. Imagine that imposed on our pastime. Imagine a routine wormer costing £80 because you had to get a DEFRA vet out to administer it. Because sure as hell, if horse was to be eaten in this country, the regulations would make keeping horses, unless being farmed for a profit, untenable. The only way to address the excess number of horses is to stop them being bred in the first place. Racing already sends it's surplus to the slaughterhouse, it's time to stop the huge numbers of coloured cobs that seem to graze in every other field from being bred, but seeing as how they are most unlikely to even have a passport, I'm sure their owners are not going to listen.
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I understand what you are saying, but I don't see the problem with stricter regulations on keeping horses. Surely it all adds to welfare? I for one would be happy to pay extra for my horses if there were better regulation of the breed in general. Lets face it, there was outcry when the passport came into being but in the end people sucked it up and dealt with it.

Bobbly said:
Oooh!! A large can of worms...... I would not choose to eat horse meat, nor would I choose to eat rabbit or squirrel etc. Obviously other countries see it as the norm to do so just as Korea eat dogs and South America eat Guinea pigs and China, well they eat just about anything!! I think (I well may be wrong) in France where horse meat is readily available they breed the likes of Percheron etc, big chunky horses that mature early for the meat market. What's the point of breeding light weight stock when payment may well be on weight?
I do not have issue with horses going for slaughter for the food chain (not a route I would choose for mine) but I do feel that no animal should need to leave this country, or any other in fact, alive. In today's world of chilled and refridgerated vehicles, live export is not necessary at all IMO. completely agree
The biggest problem has been the shutting down of many of this country's abattoirs causing our animals having to travel great distances, even abroad, and this should be readdressed for the welfare good of all livestock.
The passport debacle also needs serious addressing, after all farmers are stringically ruled with tagging, movement controls, medication monitoring etc, why are horses not? because they are not classed as agricultural!Again I agree!
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heebiejeebies said:
I can't quote as I'm on my phone, but to the person who said everyone who steals nappies are doing so for drug money... I am ashamed to admit I have stolen nappies on occasion. Due to the breakdown of my relationship I suddenly found myself in a horrific financial mess, I genuinely could not afford nappies and was too proud to ask for help. I can only thank god I chose to breastfeed and my baby was young enough to be breastfed as it meant he never went without. I lost around two stone because I couldn't afford to eat, nappies were more of a nesscesity, and I am shamed to admit that I have stolen them.
Just wanted to say, I am so sorry that you ever found yourself in that situation and I am glad you have found your way through
I am back on my feet now though, and to answer the OP... I like cows, sheep, rabbits and pigs, I think they are cute and love taking my toddler to petting zoos etc to clap them... And we eat lamb, beef, rabbit, bacon, pork... So although it might take me a while to get my head round it, if horse meat was sold as horsemeat (or given a new name :P ) I would probably come round to the idea of eating it.

We are humans, evolved to eat meat, and as long as it wasn't people's pets I was eating but animals farmed for slaughter then I like to think if be ok with it!
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Billie1007 said:
Horses dealt with humanely and had a decent life, sold for food I don't have a problem with. Eating horse without choosing to I have a problem with.
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Completely agree

lhotse said:
Disposable nappies are not an essential, they were never used when I was a kid, I still have a nappypin in my possession from when I was a baby. I'm sure you could have found another way without theft, my friends in France can't afford disposable nappies, so they use washable ones instead. good for your friends, sanctimonious much?
As for farmed meat horses, one word.
Amersham.
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Three words: better regulations needed
 
It doesn't matter where they come from, the regulations here would need to be massively tightened up. We would pay for that directly or not.

It just cannot work keeping horses as pets and then deciding they are going for human consumption in large numbers. Probably everything that does currently has a dodgy passport!

Keeping them properly as meat animals would mean they cost the same if not more, than beef.

We would end up TB testing and all sorts as well.

We aren't allowed to microchip livestock for ID because of the danger of the wrong chips ending up on the plate. So shall we ear tag horses? Don't think that would go down well. They would need to be permanently identified from birth like live stock are.

When a calf is born here I have to ear tag it with two matching approved ear tags. To get those tags I have to be registered with the right bodies and keep accurate records. Once the calf is tagged I register it for a passport. This passport matches those ear tags. It would be difficult to falsify these details and the penalties for doing so are high. If I do not comply with these rules, that calf can NEVER be slaughtered for human consumption and has to be shot on farm.

Any medication that calf receives in its life is kept in my record books and can be inspected without warning at any time.

Horse passports are a joke and a total waste of time in comparison!
 
On a more serious note, if horses were raised for meat, it would be more expensive. I know someone who works for ABP. They tell me the entire plant is mystified as to how horsemeat got into production. Where they work it is run like a military operation. They only process cattle, and have to stop production when they change from those under 30 months to animals over 30 months, to change packaging, labelling etc. There is no way another species could get into their production chain. The cattles' welfare is paramount - they are kept in a lairage prior to slaughter, with hay, water, and someone to look after them. No one is allowed in there, and the people who do go in are not allowed to wear bright colours or shout or otherwise stress the cattle. There is a vet on site when they are "operational", and the odd one is rejected and sent back. Nothing gets through without a passport. Just thought I should point out that some abbatoirs do it right.
 
Regandal said:
Nothing gets through without a passport. Just thought I should point out that some abbatoirs do it right.
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Most do it right. This saga is an outrageous deviation from the law and many people must have been complicit in the deceit! It's not the staff at the sharp end who would benefit from this scam, its higher up, it has to be.
 
lhotse said:
They eat dogs in Thailand, maybe we should eat them. The rescue centres are full.
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Well, this was a discussion about horses... In the HORSE section of the forum, but if you feel strongly about that, why not suggest it in the dogs forum. Im not even negating that, Im just saying this is actually a discussion about horses... horses are not dogs and dogs are not horses
 
I don't disagree with eating horse meat, as others have said, if the horse is slaughtered humanely and protocol is followed.

The one thing that would worry me about mass producing horse meat as, say, a replacement for beef for those on a budget would be the intensive farming methods used to create enough horses 'fit for consumption' that will never have been buted etc etc.

Will they be like battery hens? Kept in small pens/stables and fed up until the yearlings are tubby enough to slaughter? Will there be controls over how many times a broodmare can foal? Will the horses have any quality of life (free range !) Before they're shipped off to meet demand? That would be the bit that would scare me :(
 
Queenbee

Quote de lhotse They eat dogs in Thailand, maybe we should eat them. The rescue centres are full.

Well, this was a discussion about horses... In the HORSE section of the forum, but if you feel strongly about that, why not suggest it in the dogs forum. Im not even negating that, Im just saying this is actually a discussion about horses... horses are not dogs and dogs are not horses


I think this was ment light heartedly!
Maybe to lighten the mood of this tense subject!
 
FfionWinnie said:
It doesn't matter where they come from, the regulations here would need to be massively tightened up. We would pay for that directly or not.
I do not disgagree, there would be a price reflection, but I still reckon there would be a significant difference between Horse and Beef when all is said and done.

It just cannot work keeping horses as pets and then deciding they are going for human consumption in large numbers. Probably everything that does currently has a dodgy passport!
It actually does in most other countries so why not ours?

Keeping them properly as meat animals would mean they cost the same if not more, than beef.
So you suggest that this is not something that is considered and that horses continue to be treated at a substandard level as a result?

We would end up TB testing and all sorts as well.

So?

We aren't allowed to microchip livestock for ID because of the danger of the wrong chips ending up on the plate. So shall we ear tag horses? Don't think that would go down well. They would need to be permanently identified from birth like live stock are.
Brand them it worked for years before the chip

When a calf is born here I have to ear tag it with two matching approved ear tags. To get those tags I have to be registered with the right bodies and keep accurate records. Once the calf is tagged I register it for a passport. This passport matches those ear tags. It would be difficult to falsify these details and the penalties for doing so are high. If I do not comply with these rules, that calf can NEVER be slaughtered for human consumption and has to be shot on farm.
same as microchipping or branding near enough, a bit of tweaking and it would fit for horses
Any medication that calf receives in its life is kept in my record books and can be inspected without warning at any time.
Hmm, passports count for jack currently but all meds should be recorded in their passport and again regulations can be tightened, what is the problem
Horse passports are a joke and a total waste of time in comparison!
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currently yes, just because it is, doesn't mean it should be or will always be.


Are you more worried about the impact that Horse Meat would have on your beef business than anything else?


Regandal said:
On a more serious note, if horses were raised for meat, it would be more expensive. I know someone who works for ABP. They tell me the entire plant is mystified as to how horsemeat got into production. Where they work it is run like a military operation. They only process cattle, and have to stop production when they change from those under 30 months to animals over 30 months, to change packaging, labelling etc. There is no way another species could get into their production chain. The cattles' welfare is paramount - they are kept in a lairage prior to slaughter, with hay, water, and someone to look after them. No one is allowed in there, and the people who do go in are not allowed to wear bright colours or shout or otherwise stress the cattle. There is a vet on site when they are "operational", and the odd one is rejected and sent back. Nothing gets through without a passport. Just thought I should point out that some abbatoirs do it right.
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Sadly where there are humans there is always the opportunity for corruption:(
 
sophiebailey said:
I don't disagree with eating horse meat, as others have said, if the horse is slaughtered humanely and protocol is followed.

The one thing that would worry me about mass producing horse meat as, say, a replacement for beef for those on a budget would be the intensive farming methods used to create enough horses 'fit for consumption' that will never have been buted etc etc.

Will they be like battery hens? Kept in small pens/stables and fed up until the yearlings are tubby enough to slaughter? Will there be controls over how many times a broodmare can foal? Will the horses have any quality of life (free range !) Before they're shipped off to meet demand? That would be the bit that would scare me :(
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I don't know but is it any different to the horse owner who keeps his or her horse in 24/7? is it better because they are a private owner, or perhaps that is worse because they may keep their horse for years in that manner. Our farming methods are not perfect, but as a nation we are striving for 'happy' farms and animals. and not battery style
 
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