Horse Meat Saga... I am so going to be shot down for saying this...

Not read whole thread but anyway..
I am not against eating horsemeat myself- I think it has it positives such as those already mentioned. having said that, I probably wouldn't buy it!

Here is a scenario I thought up myself..

Surely for horsemeat to be 'embraced' in local supermarkets- then horses would have to be farmed in a way similar to cattle? There would need to be quality consistence in the meat and strict regulations on the sources of the meat.

I feel that the equine world could split in to a meat industry group and leisure/pet group as certain breeds would be favoured and bred for eating; which in turn has little benefit to the current problems we have now with backyard breeding and number control. It could possibly make the situation worse as horses could be farmed and then unwanted leisure horses would have no place in the food industry..

I might not be getting the point across clearly :p! just a thought
 
The reason horsemeat is cheap is because it has circumvented Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards

The fact horsemeat has been found in cheap convenience food is only an indication that cheap convenience and fast food has by passed Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards.

It indicates that horsemeat is the tip of a gory criminal iceberg of unhealthy animals, appalling welfare and dangerous lack of hygiene and food safety.

The by passing of these standards undermines good food production .. our high standard farmers and butchers and the health of the nation generally.
 
I really don't think many people would knowingly buy Horsemeat, the only reason it's got into the UK foodchain is through deception. If it were marketed and regulated properly then I think the cost of it would go up in line with Beef and it wouldn't sell.

RE Welfare, I'd say the only sure way to purchase ethically produced meat is to get it from a local butcher, UK reared to our standards.
The supermarkets have done enough damage to the UK farm industry and have surely by now proven that they can't be trusted.
 
I haven't read the replies, but Britain starting to eat horsemeat won't solve the problem. Horses not being bred willy nilly will. There needs to be strict regulations on breeding. If you make a market for eating them, people will breed more to eat...IMO.

I wouldn't eat horse meat and I'd also be extremely uncomfortable seeing it at the butchers or on supermarket shelves.
 
I totally agree with you QB. If horsemeat was offered as a cheaper alternative and was labelled as such then people would have the choice. I have no problem at all with eating horsemeat - it is the decpetion I cannot stand. I am beginning to wonder where this will all end.

The passport system needs totally overhauling though, to have traces of Bute and other meds in our food is unacceptable, farmers have very strict regulations concerning meat withdrawals on all medications.

This scandal just goes to prove that we really do not know what goes into our food. I can see more people beginning to cook from scratch and local butchers becoming more popular. We as a nation need to demand more care is taken and be more choosy about what we buy and eat - very hard on a low income though.
 
Megibo said:
I haven't read the replies, but Britain starting to eat horsemeat won't solve the problem. Horses not being bred willy nilly will. There needs to be strict regulations on breeding. If you make a market for eating them, people will breed more to eat...IMO.

I wouldn't eat horse meat and I'd also be extremely uncomfortable seeing it at the butchers or on supermarket shelves.
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And what if they did breed more to eat? They'd then be farmed, not bred into a leisure market. The slaughterhouses and paperwork would be far stricter and there would be far less chance of it ending up in food without our knowledge as it would be a meat like any other. The result of proper paperwork (as with any other livestock) would mean that there would be less unscrupulous breeding as you simply wouldn't be able to flog it into the meat market.

You'd end up splitting the horse world into livestock and pets. Once loved pets couldn't be sold at auction to a meat man as a simple option as he'd be unlikely to be able to send it off. In turn the breeding would probably cut down as people would have to apply for appropriate permission on the land and transport to keep a horse. Breeding wouldn't be so cheap and simple and every animal would be appropriately marked as opposed to managing to slip through very easily with no passport or microchip.

I have no problem eating horse meat and honestly don't understand how people can happily eat other meats but not even cope with the sight of it at a butchers.

It certainly wouldn't promote more poor breeding, but rather managed breeding and slaughter at no less cost than other meat. It wouldn't be a cheap answer to breeding more poor horses.

I seriously doubt it will become more than a musing in reality though. And the poor breeding will never be managed without turning it into a true livestock animal. It simply wouldn't be realistic, which is why pets of all species are over-bred, in-bred and far more available than will ever be wanted.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
Not read whole thread but anyway..
I am not against eating horsemeat myself- I think it has it positives such as those already mentioned. having said that, I probably wouldn't buy it!

Here is a scenario I thought up myself..

Surely for horsemeat to be 'embraced' in local supermarkets- then horses would have to be farmed in a way similar to cattle? There would need to be quality consistence in the meat and strict regulations on the sources of the meat.

I feel that the equine world could split in to a meat industry group and leisure/pet group as certain breeds would be favoured and bred for eating; which in turn has little benefit to the current problems we have now with backyard breeding and number control. It could possibly make the situation worse as horses could be farmed and then unwanted leisure horses would have no place in the food industry..

I might not be getting the point across clearly :p! just a thought
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I actually think the complete opposite. Anyone with livestock will know how strict paperwork for keeping and moving is. It wouldn't be a case of simply keep breeding. It would make poor breeding a lot more difficult as they would have to jump through the same hoops as any other livestock.

It wouldn't be a 'split' as such. Every horse would need to be registered, same as pet sheep or goats, so the breeding would be monitored. What you then decide to do with your livestock (leisure or farmed) is then up to you, but the same rules would apply to all. The best way to explain would probably be to talk about rare breeds. These are often bred as pets rather than livestock, but the same strict regulations apply.

It would also introduce appropriate quarantine periods possibly tackling other problems. And land plots would require holding numbers etc. So fly grazing would be more strictly controlled and inappropriate sized grazing/having horses in back gardens which aren't appropriate etc would too.
 
Zuzan said:
The reason horsemeat is cheap is because it has circumvented Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards

The fact horsemeat has been found in cheap convenience food is only an indication that cheap convenience and fast food has by passed Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards.

It indicates that horsemeat is the tip of a gory criminal iceberg of unhealthy animals, appalling welfare and dangerous lack of hygiene and food safety.

The by passing of these standards undermines good food production .. our high standard farmers and butchers and the health of the nation generally.
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An excellent post, and quite correct. There's one small problem, as I see it; we have to ask ourselves if we can actually afford it. Did we, 60 years ago have a Foods Standard Agency? Did we have an incredibly (mind-numbingly) expensive and cumbersome, and totally inefficient, inspection system, as we have now? The truth is that we didn't, and I'm not sure that anyone died as a result of a lack of care.

Consider the game that we eat, if you will; if we do it correctly, we hang game until it is considered "Hung", and has acquired a bit of a "Nose". Do we come to any harm from this? None that I'm aware of have suffered.

Consider this too, in the Middle East, and the Far East also, when meat is killed and processed in conditions which are considered by most to be "basic", with rarely the facility for chillers, do they come to any harm? I've spent some while in the desert, and they've always looked rather healthy to me!!

My argument through all this is that those who would lecture us about food hygiene will all so often turn the "Perceived and possible risk", into a virtually guaranteed death sentence! In short, we're too soft.

Alec.
 
PandorasJar said:
And what if they did breed more to eat? They'd then be farmed, not bred into a leisure market. The slaughterhouses and paperwork would be far stricter and there would be far less chance of it ending up in food without our knowledge as it would be a meat like any other. The result of proper paperwork (as with any other livestock) would mean that there would be less unscrupulous breeding as you simply wouldn't be able to flog it into the meat market.

You'd end up splitting the horse world into livestock and pets. Once loved pets couldn't be sold at auction to a meat man as a simple option as he'd be unlikely to be able to send it off. In turn the breeding would probably cut down as people would have to apply for appropriate permission on the land and transport to keep a horse. Breeding wouldn't be so cheap and simple and every animal would be appropriately marked as opposed to managing to slip through very easily with no passport or microchip.

I have no problem eating horse meat and honestly don't understand how people can happily eat other meats but not even cope with the sight of it at a butchers.

It certainly wouldn't promote more poor breeding, but rather managed breeding and slaughter at no less cost than other meat. It wouldn't be a cheap answer to breeding more poor horses.

I seriously doubt it will become more than a musing in reality though. And the poor breeding will never be managed without turning it into a true livestock animal. It simply wouldn't be realistic, which is why pets of all species are over-bred, in-bred and far more available than will ever be wanted.
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Anyone who has a 'good doer' like me!! will know that a horse can gain weight on fresh air. I am told that the Percheron was originally bred for meat because it put on more pounds relative to feed than a bullock.

I for one do not agree that it is OK for horses to go for slaughter even if it meant a journey of just one hour. My horses will die here with me and with their friends. I would not trust any slaughter man to do what my vet could do with me in attendance.

I would hate to think that British Native who are known to be good doers, would find a more useful life in meat production, than in the show ring, hunting field or as a much loved hack.
 
Zuzan said:
The reason horsemeat is cheap is because it has circumvented Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards

The fact horsemeat has been found in cheap convenience food is only an indication that cheap convenience and fast food has by passed Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards.

It indicates that horsemeat is the tip of a gory criminal iceberg of unhealthy animals, appalling welfare and dangerous lack of hygiene and food safety.

The by passing of these standards undermines good food production .. our high standard farmers and butchers and the health of the nation generally.
Click to expand...

Good post.


For centuries many cultures prohibited horse meat as the horse was respected as a noble and faithful servant. It came into vogue when soldiers on the battle field and starving working class populations had no alternative.
It seems a shame that living in a 1st world country, some have forgotten the respect our ancestors had for all that horses have done for us, in war, farming, transport, sport and as companions.
 
I don't eat meat but don't criticise those that do - I think it's the texture that I don't like.
I wouldn't ever consider eating horse meat - I find the idea of it totally repulsive. But if people want to, that's their choice. I have the same concerns though about any animal that goes to slaughter - and that is the way it is handled and killed. A lot of us will have seen the recent video of the horses at Turners abbatoir and all those who commented were disgusted by it. I am concerned that should horsemeat for human consumption become the norm, there will be many more incidents of the Turner's abbatoir situation.

I've also just seen an advert on a riding club website for 120 coloured cobs for sale by one seller - all heavy, all coloured and all three years old all between £300 and £600, all running together. It does make me wonder what the outcome will be for these horses. 120 is a big number to sell for riding horses....
 
I don't have a problem with eating horse, although for all sort of purely emotional reasons I would not. However, what does really concern me is just how bad this situation is and how long is has been going on for. Yes consumers have demanded lower prices, yes a lot of us ( me! ) are naive to the extreme. I choose to eat less meat but buy locally because I felt at the time, I admit sentimentally, that if I eat meat, I should ensure said animal was brought up, fed and slaughtered correctly. Eating horse per se? My concern is we can't get it right with current meat, adding another animal is hardly going to help.
 
Haven't read all the thread but I detest the idea of horses ending up being factory farmed as I can see that becoming the the norm if horse meat is more readily accepted/available as the norm like beef.
 
windand rain said:
I was very surprised that horsemeat was deemed cheap and used as a filler to be honest I had always seen it as elitist and expensive. I have no issue in eating or seeing advertised any meat but I would say the labeling should be accurate.
I dont even have an issue with them saying the lasagne is 100% meat not necessarily even saying horsemeat.
Guess I would be more alarmed if they started using unfit meat whatever species that may be
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Horsemeat is available in this country, supplied by a specialist meat company which also supplies such meats as kangaroo, ostrich, etc. It has been on offer at a restaurant in Edinburgh for some years and a certain "celebrity" chef has endorsed the consumption of horsemeat. Needless to say it is very expensive.

It was eaten during the 2nd World War as part of the meat ration (either with or without the knowledge of the consumer).

It is not only the slaughterers who have sole responsibility for the use of horsemeat in processed meat products. My cousin, who is a butcher, says there is no way that the processors of the meat wouldn't know that it wasn't beef, even if it was supplied to them boned out. Once minced it would be more difficult to spot, of course.
 
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Holly Hocks said:
I don't eat meat but don't criticise those that do - I think it's the texture that I don't like.
I wouldn't ever consider eating horse meat - I find the idea of it totally repulsive. But if people want to, that's their choice. I have the same concerns though about any animal that goes to slaughter - and that is the way it is handled and killed. A lot of us will have seen the recent video of the horses at Turners abbatoir and all those who commented were disgusted by it. I am concerned that should horsemeat for human consumption become the norm, there will be many more incidents of the Turner's abbatoir situation.

I've also just seen an advert on a riding club website for 120 coloured cobs for sale by one seller - all heavy, all coloured and all three years old all between £300 and £600, all running together. It does make me wonder what the outcome will be for these horses. 120 is a big number to sell for riding horses....
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I used to keep my horse on a yard in the North West where the aforementioned slaughterers were sometimes called in by owners to take perfectly healthy horses for various reasons such as finance or behavioural problems. Many of the healthy horses they buy for killing are rescued and kept (well) by the company and sold on as useful horses.

All forms of commercial animal slaughter are barbaric, despite inspection and regulation, as my uncle who was a meat inspector told me.
 
Ellen Durow said:
It was eaten during the 2nd World War as part of the meat ration (either with or without the knowledge of the consumer).

.
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Amazingly lots was eaten after the end of the war, of the horses that were left, the few well ones were sold to local farmers in France/ Belgium, a small handful were shipped home but most were used to feed prisoners of war !

There were some amazing/ gross (depending on your perspective) pictures of horse butchery production lines on the recent Real War Horse TV programme, there were a lot of mouths to feed at the end of the war and shipping horses home was not a priority.
 
Actally OP, I do think that eating horse meat in the UK is a viable option, there areIi am sure many who would be open to this option and it may resolve some problems, meat at a good price and an avenue for the disposal of excess horses. Maybe the UK should consider this option.

Tin helmet donned for those opposed to this.
 
moana said:
Actally OP, I do think that eating horse meat in the UK is a viable option, there areIi am sure many who would be open to this option and it may resolve some problems, meat at a good price and an avenue for the disposal of excess horses. Maybe the UK should consider this option.

Tin helmet donned for those opposed to this.
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excess horses that have been bred (ie youngsters) or just excess horses in general (ie knackered riding horses)?
Because how many people on here have buted a horse up without asking a vet? I am not even sure bute is that dangerous but would like to see data on eg pergolide. Its been proved that passports do not work so there is no way to trust which horses enter the food chain or what they've been given. At the moment I could send my horse to slaughter having been on large doses of bute, antibiotics, cimetidine and cisplatin, what if someone were to put him into the food chain?
 
moana said:
Actally OP, I do think that eating horse meat in the UK is a viable option, there areIi am sure many who would be open to this option and it may resolve some problems, meat at a good price and an avenue for the disposal of excess horses. Maybe the UK should consider this option.

Tin helmet donned for those opposed to this.
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How many horses at Potters or Turners do you think have never had bute in their lives ?

If horse meat was produced like british farmed animals, it would not be cheap.

Or do supporters of eating horse meat products just want any cheap bits of offal regardless of the animals suffering before hand ? (don't kid yourselves, it won't be choice cuts you'll be getting for 99p.)

We live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, so, then, what should our own poor and the 3rd world eat ?
For those looking for a high protein and environmentally friendly food source, latest research is trying to develop the public's acceptability of eating insects.
Much cheaper than producing cattle and without needing the vast land resources.

Would you eat a high protein insect biscuit or suggest that those on low incomes buy them instead of a pork chop or neck of lamb ?

Or is acceptance of eating Horse meat the new snobbery in response to most people's offence at secretly being fed our sporting and leisure companions ?
 
horserider said:
Or is acceptance of eating Horse meat the new snobbery in response to most people's offence at secretly being fed our sporting and leisure companions ?
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I think everyone is offended at the secret way this has beeen done.
I agree unless specially bred horses (which accurate medial records) are used it's not really practical and a humanely bred meat horse would certainly cost as much as a cow.

I do think if the poor abandoned/ neglected/ unwanted horses could be put out of their misery and to some useful purpose it would be better than completely wasting their lives. I suspect pet food is the most realistic option.
 
Zuzan said:
The reason horsemeat is cheap is because it has circumvented Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards

The fact horsemeat has been found in cheap convenience food is only an indication that cheap convenience and fast food has by passed Food Safety and Animal Welfare standards.

It indicates that horsemeat is the tip of a gory criminal iceberg of unhealthy animals, appalling welfare and dangerous lack of hygiene and food safety.
u
The by passing of these standards undermines good food production .. our high standard farmers and butchers and the health of the nation generally.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. The demise of the local authority fully qualified meat inspectors with local knowledge has been a key factor. Abattoirs are visited for short periods by vets with no local knowledge, and the meat companies now employ 'spotters' who have no authority to detain or condemn anything. So free rein for any dodgy dealings.
 
FfionWinnie said:
No I am not worried because it won't happen due to the reasons I have pointed out. Obviously you know better.

Leisure horses will never be a substantial food source, if horse meat is to be a popular meat in the uk, it will be farmed the same as beef, with the same inputs (or perhaps more, you don't routinely trim the feet of beef animals for a start).

It's not an answer for getting rid of surplus horses.
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I think you are being quite rude... for one I am not the one jumping up and down saying 'i know better' that is you. I am also not saying this should happen, I am just stating a line of thought. I have even said that even though its something I have been thinking of - I don't even know how I feel about it. Finally please do not preach to me about beef farming, I am fully aware of how beef cattle are farmed having spent 6 years in a relationship with a beef farmer I am not naive about such things.
 
I work with kids from low income families, all I can say is that although the kids go without the parents do not go without fags!! This is a result of super markets pushing down prices and people being prepared to eat crap. There its very little real meat in any of those burgers and meals.thank the lord I'm a veggie.
 
PandorasJar said:
And what if they did breed more to eat? They'd then be farmed, not bred into a leisure market. The slaughterhouses and paperwork would be far stricter and there would be far less chance of it ending up in food without our knowledge as it would be a meat like any other. The result of proper paperwork (as with any other livestock) would mean that there would be less unscrupulous breeding as you simply wouldn't be able to flog it into the meat market.

You'd end up splitting the horse world into livestock and pets. Once loved pets couldn't be sold at auction to a meat man as a simple option as he'd be unlikely to be able to send it off. In turn the breeding would probably cut down as people would have to apply for appropriate permission on the land and transport to keep a horse. Breeding wouldn't be so cheap and simple and every animal would be appropriately marked as opposed to managing to slip through very easily with no passport or microchip.

I have no problem eating horse meat and honestly don't understand how people can happily eat other meats but not even cope with the sight of it at a butchers.

It certainly wouldn't promote more poor breeding, but rather managed breeding and slaughter at no less cost than other meat. It wouldn't be a cheap answer to breeding more poor horses.

I seriously doubt it will become more than a musing in reality though. And the poor breeding will never be managed without turning it into a true livestock animal. It simply wouldn't be realistic, which is why pets of all species are over-bred, in-bred and far more available than will ever be wanted.
Click to expand...

PandorasJar said:
I actually think the complete opposite. Anyone with livestock will know how strict paperwork for keeping and moving is. It wouldn't be a case of simply keep breeding. It would make poor breeding a lot more difficult as they would have to jump through the same hoops as any other livestock.

It wouldn't be a 'split' as such. Every horse would need to be registered, same as pet sheep or goats, so the breeding would be monitored. What you then decide to do with your livestock (leisure or farmed) is then up to you, but the same rules would apply to all. The best way to explain would probably be to talk about rare breeds. These are often bred as pets rather than livestock, but the same strict regulations apply.

It would also introduce appropriate quarantine periods possibly tackling other problems. And land plots would require holding numbers etc. So fly grazing would be more strictly controlled and inappropriate sized grazing/having horses in back gardens which aren't appropriate etc would too.
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God! Lots of replies and a load of very valid points for and against but I think the above posts are very well thought out and argued. :D
 
While the fraudulent selling of horse meat is abhorrent and if the horses were farmed and properly tagged etc wouldnt be cheap meat I would agree that animal feed would be an option trouble is they then start feeding it to herbivores and pass on a range of blood and flesh born disease Horses eating horse, cow or sheep would be just as abhorrent to me I would rather the labels said horse meat and it went into an informed human food chain than being ground up to fill herbivore feed protein requirement as happened with mad cow disease
The bute question is a bit of a red herring as it takes a person eating 600 burgers a day to get an adult human acceptable dose what may be more of a concern would be the strong wormers used every 6 weeks or the other drugs including antibiotics etc
I guess the poor will all be worm and scabies free now after being dosed well with ivermectin
 
Queenbee said:
I think you are being quite rude... for one I am not the one jumping up and down saying 'i know better' that is you. I am also not saying this should happen, I am just stating a line of thought. I have even said that even though its something I have been thinking of - I don't even know how I feel about it. Finally please do not preach to me about beef farming, I am fully aware of how beef cattle are farmed having spent 6 years in a relationship with a beef farmer I am not naive about such things.
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Your dismissive attitude towards my valid points, when you said was I just worried due to the impact of horse meat on my own business, prompted my reply. I found that attitude very rude, I have an opinion on the subject and it is not based on anything but the facts which are:

Most surplus horses are NOT allowed in the food chain.

Properly reared horses WOULD cost the same if not more, as beef to rear.

It would cost me, as a pet owning horse owner, just like the useless passport system has, if more regulations come in.

It will cost me as a tax payer, if more regulations come in.

Livestock have been bred for years to finish quickly and produce a quality carcass. Horses have been bred for every reason except that and horse meat is a byproduct of the horse leisure industry in this country. It would cost billions and billions to change this.

So lets think, horses are now bred as meat animals. They are kept like cattle. They are not pets and are not halter broken. How do you get them in? How do you handle them, put them in a horse crush, would folk be happy with that? How do you trim their feet, lets use a roll over crush for that too. A whole new load of drugs would have to be developed suitable for treating these horses. More testing therefore needing done on horses to find suitable drugs.

Horse temperaments are not conducive to being farmed for meat. Beef and sheep have totally different temperaments (in the main) to horses.

This horse meat has got into the food chain because it is cheap. It is cheap because it is not fit for human consumption. Horse meat which is fit for human consumption, is not cheap.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Your dismissive attitude towards my valid points, when you said was I just worried due to the impact of horse meat on my own business, prompted my reply. I found that attitude very rude, I have an opinion on the subject and it is not based on anything but the facts which are:

Most surplus horses are NOT allowed in the food chain.

Properly reared horses WOULD cost the same if not more, as beef to rear.

It would cost me, as a pet owning horse owner, just like the useless passport system has, if more regulations come in.

It will cost me as a tax payer, if more regulations come in.

Livestock have been bred for years to finish quickly and produce a quality carcass. Horses have been bred for every reason except that and horse meat is a byproduct of the horse leisure industry in this country. It would cost billions and billions to change this.

So lets think, horses are now bred as meat animals. They are kept like cattle. They are not pets and are not halter broken. How do you get them in? How do you handle them, put them in a horse crush, would folk be happy with that? How do you trim their feet, lets use a roll over crush for that too. A whole new load of drugs would have to be developed suitable for treating these horses. More testing therefore needing done on horses to find suitable drugs.

Horse temperaments are not conducive to being farmed for meat. Beef and sheep have totally different temperaments (in the main) to horses.

This horse meat has got into the food chain because it is cheap. It is cheap because it is not fit for human consumption. Horse meat which is fit for human consumption, is not cheap.
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Totally agree with this.
 
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