horse on loan - where do I stand?

[LJW2709]

Hello, wondering if anyone could help/advise on my current sticky situation! Wasn't sure where to post this, so hope ok here..
I put my horse out on loan 3 years ago due to me having a baby, had a proper loan agreement (bhs template) signed, witnessed etc,.. All fab, she gets on well with my horse, competing etc, keeps me updated, he's looked after well.
A year and a half on, lady asked to buy my horse, I agreed (as pregnant again with baby no 2) we agreed a price and she asked if she could pay in instalments as didn't have money up front, I agreed (all communication via text, email which I still have)
It's now been 14 months, loads of excuses 3 bounced cheques, £50 here and £50 there has been transferred to my account. She has paid me approximately 1/4 of what she ows, I have spoken to her several times to ask for the money, and its just excuse after excuse,
Basically I don't know what to do! Who owns the horse now? Do I have a right to have him back? I'm happy to pay back to her what she has paid and I'll retain ownership?
Just wondering what you would do? I'm so soft! Hubby says I need to grow a pair! she has the passport as she is competing him. I really kick myself as should have done a purchase contract for the installments but guess I just trust people to much! I have called an equine solicitor for advise just awaiting a call back,
Thanks for reading my long post and really apriciate any advise xxx

 

[9tails]

Give her 30 days notice to collect horse unless full amount owing is paid. She's had long enough now.

 

[*hic*]

As 9tails says. Be prepared for her to say if you want him take him back now.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes as above I would give her thirty days if the full amount is not paid by then I would return what she has paid and be prepared for the return of your horse .

 

[acorn92x]

Until she has handed over the whole sum at which you've agreed to sell him for, you still own him (I sincerly hope that you agreed this sum in writing and she signed this agreement! ) so you are entitled to have him back. Give her 30 days notice to pay up and tell her that if you don't get the money that is still outstanding for him, that you'll be round with a trailer coming to collect him along with the money which she has paid you to hand back to her. I'd say that is more than fair.

 

[Kezzabell2]

I'd say as long as you've not given a receipt for the sale then you should be fine to take him back.

 

[ester]

If she can afford to be out competing she could have paid you....

You still own him, passport is not proof of ownership. 30 days notice or you collect. If she really wants him she can get a loan in that time.

 

[Penny Less]

However, if the OP gives 30 days notice what is to stop the purchaser from moving the horse away

 

[acorn92x]

However, if the OP gives 30 days notice what is to stop the purchaser from moving the horse away

If the loaner did that, I would be getting the police involved dpq.

 

[Polos Mum]

OP what do you want to do 1) get horse back and sell him on to someone else (which will cost you time and livery money) or 2) get money from the loaner

You can 'man up' and get heavy with her to pay you now - but be prepared to go through with your threat and go and collect him after some reasonable notice.

If we are talking a few £hundred I'd seriously consider just forgetting it - if you have to pay livery for say 3/4 months while you ride him and sell him yourself you'll probably be out of pocket - clearly if he is valuable then ignore the above.

You will find it really hard to force her to pay so most likely if you make a big fuss he will come back to you - so make sure you are very sure you want that to happen and that you will not be worse off overall if that happens.

You could go and get tack and sell that to fund some of what she owes you

 

[fatpiggy]

OP what do you want to do 1) get horse back and sell him on to someone else (which will cost you time and livery money) or 2) get money from the loaner

You can 'man up' and get heavy with her to pay you now - but be prepared to go through with your threat and go and collect him after some reasonable notice.

If we are talking a few £hundred I'd seriously consider just forgetting it - if you have to pay livery for say 3/4 months while you ride him and sell him yourself you'll probably be out of pocket - clearly if he is valuable then ignore the above.

You will find it really hard to force her to pay so most likely if you make a big fuss he will come back to you - so make sure you are very sure you want that to happen and that you will not be worse off overall if that happens.

You could go and get tack and sell that to fund some of what she owes you

Not helpful I know, but I'm afraid the alarm bells would have rung with me as soon as the installments were mentioned - if you can't afford to buy the horse outright, you can't afford to keep it.

 

[LJW2709]

Thank you for all of your helpful comments.. really gives me something to think about! Will def be doing the '30 day' letter, she still owes me 1500, so too much to ignore really and will prepare for him to come home if need be.. Unfortunalty I dont have a signed contract on the amount agreed/installments :-( however i do have all the emails where we agreed the price, and the 'excuses' when she hasn't been able to pay, so have a record of all of that. I was just worried that if I give her notice she would turn around and say 'well actually I own him as you have money' etc etc. I have been so fair as I only sold him for what he was worth when he went to her, she has done an awful lot of work with him and has obviulsy increased his value, but I just liked the fact he went to a nice home (have had him since a baby). So annoying! Really kick myself.. and yes that is exactly what I have have been saying that she can afford to compete and affiliation fees are soooo expensive, but she cant afford 1500!.. better get drafting the letter!!!

 

[LJW2709]

No haven't given a receipt!., thats great thank you for that info

 

[dianchi]

I would also detail out the "installments" that you have had so far, so that she cant say you have her money.
Make it clear that you will return the money and that you will collect the horse.

Stressful i know but needs doing!

 

[Polos Mum]

Installments don't mean anything - if I don't pay my for my car repayments then you can be very sure they will come and repossess it! You will have to give her those back so worth including that in your letter.

How much is he worth? If it was say £2k (she's paid you a bit and still owes £1500) then he might be worth £3k now with a competition record - so even if you have to have him on full livery (I know what it's like with 2 kids!) for 3 months while you sell him with teeth, vac, shoes, wormer etc you'd probably not spend much more than £1,500 to sell him - so it should be well worth it to get him back.

 

[spacie1977]

From what you've said, I think you'll find legally you don't actually have to give any notice to her to collect. In the eyes of the law your horse will be treated as goods bought without payment received. If she's defaulted she has no entitlement to keep the horse, AND if you had a loan contract and gave no receipt to say he's been sold, then in theory she doesn't have a leg to stand on. You could just turn up with a trailer and if she wants to call the police then let her, they'll only tell her she's got to let you take away your property as you're cancelling the loan/sale. You don't even need to give a reason for cancelling it.

 

[Polos Mum]

From what you've said, I think you'll find legally you don't actually have to give any notice to her to collect. In the eyes of the law your horse will be treated as goods bought without payment received. If she's defaulted she has no entitlement to keep the horse, AND if you had a loan contract and gave no receipt to say he's been sold, then in theory she doesn't have a leg to stand on. You could just turn up with a trailer and if she wants to call the police then let her, they'll only tell her she's got to let you take away your property as you're cancelling the loan/sale. You don't even need to give a reason for cancelling it.

TBH I'd be inclined to do this, go and get him today/ at the weekend - sounds like she's messed you around enough to not be a friend anymore so no love lost there and the police absolutely won't get involved at all so there is no come back on you.

If she wants him back she can come to your house with £1500 in cash, all sorted. If she's out eventing him then she should be able to get an overdraft, interest free credit card or similar to come up with £1500 before you have a chance to sell him to someone else.

 

[muckypony]

TBH I'd be inclined to do this, go and get him today/ at the weekend - sounds like she's messed you around enough to not be a friend anymore so no love lost there and the police absolutely won't get involved at all so there is no come back on you.

I'd also be doing this, and tell her she can have him back when she has paid in full.

I'd be worried about giving any notice in case she moved the horse.

 

[LJW2709]

We agreed 3500 and shes paid 1750 over 14 months, (so its half shes paid me not 1/4) he's prob worth about 5k now. I have now had a call from the soliciters regarding where I stand, and yes you are all right, I am still legally the owner (which is what I was worried about), I am going to put a letter together this evening and send. To be honest i'm happy if she wants to continue to loan him, he's having a great time competing which is more than what I can do at the moment with two little people! I just hate this whole uncertanty of whether i'm going to get all of the money or if anything happens to him where do I stand? Think I will give her three options. 1. Pay all the money within 30 days and I will send her a recipt 2. I will return money to her and have horse back, or 3. I will return her money and she can continue to loan him as per our origional Loan agreement/contract.
Do you think that is fair? She looks after him well and although I don't know her very well I had good refrences from quite professional people, we haven't fallen out, so think this 'formal' yet friendly approach may be a good start and go from there....

 

[Polos Mum]

3. I will return her money and she can continue to loan him as per our origional Loan agreement/contract.
Do you think that is fair? ...

You must be a much nicer person than I am :0) - I wouldn't be offering the loan option if I'd been messed about that much.

 

[ROMANY 1959]

I would send letter, then if no result after 30 days..go get horse...no notice. Just leave letter with a cheque in. Take few blokes with you as " heavies" state if she wants the said horse, don't cash cheque, pay rest to your bank account, and then you return the horse... Simples!

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I don't know why you have to wait 30 days, I think you can just tell her you are on your way to collect him, she has broken the contract, the horse belongs to you.
I had a similar case and her solicitor told her she owned the horse [contrary to our contract], so she locked him in his field, it took three months and a lot of cash to get him back, which was my single aim as he was being starved.
I am still considering small claims for my costs which were over £2000, but the whole thing was so distressing for me that I havent done anything yet. I got slated on here for being greedy / a wimp / or any other thing.
I think the horse would have been "disappeared" if she had been able to.

 

[Pennythetank]

I would send letter, then if no result after 30 days..go get horse...no notice. Just leave letter with a cheque in. Take few blokes with you as " heavies" state if she wants the said horse, don't cash cheque, pay rest to your bank account, and then you return the horse... Simples!

I wouldn't send a letter. Bring one with you stating simply why you took the horse back and how, if she wants him back not to cash cheque and pay you the 1500. Definitely take heavies for backup and if you think she may get aggressive you could warn the police what you are doing so if needed they can help you reclaim your property. I wouldn't offer another loan as I would be afraid she would take horse as revenge etc but I can be paranoid about those things.

 

[tiggs]

I wouldn't offer the loan option, the horse could be injured tomorrow and she would just return him. You could easily be out of pocket and it sounds as though he wouldn't be difficult to sell. Give her notice, if she can afford to compete she can afford to pay you

 

[glamourpuss]

I'm another that wouldn't offer the loan option. Not. A. Sniff
I wouldn't worry about him not going out competing if he's going out affiliated there would be a heap of excellent homes who would love him on loan!

 

[Clodagh]

No to the loan option! A or B only. Good lcuk.

 

[smellsofhorse]

Have a firm chat with bee face to face.
Pay up or you will refund money and take horse back.
If she can afford to compete she can afford to pay your installments.

 

[Goya]

Are you a BHS gold member?
Their legal team will help

 

[Barnacle]

I'm curious, how much was she paying to loan him? Cause she's actually paid up quite a lot - maybe she was intending to pay you at or near the loan rate so she could afford it? She's been paying you on average £125 a month. I have to say I'd be tempted to let her loan at a slightly higher rate and buy him off you that way - no loss for you (unless you could sell him yourself for more) - and it sounds like she genuinely wants him and would give him a good home. Being messed around isn't fun but sometimes you just need to let things like that go for everyone's benefit.

 

[smellsofhorse]

I'm curious, how much was she paying to loan him? Cause she's actually paid up quite a lot - maybe she was intending to pay you at or near the loan rate so she could afford it? She's been paying you on average £125 a month. I have to say I'd be tempted to let her loan at a slightly higher rate and buy him off you that way - no loss for you (unless you could sell him yourself for more) - and it sounds like she genuinely wants him and would give him a good home. Being messed around isn't fun but sometimes you just need to let things like that go for everyone's benefit.

It is a loan not a lease so she wouldn't have bee paying owner anything.
Just paying normal costs of having a horse.
They then agreed with owner to buy him and pay in installments.