Horse ownership / payment problem

[Lauren1993]

sooo a dilemma & ownership problem.

I brought a horse 2 years ago , I had an accident and was not able to care for him alone for a while so had help from a friend.
I then decide to sell the horse, I took a deposit and arranged for the new owner to collect him.
my friend who was helping care for him at the time asked me not to go ahead with the sale as she has a bond with him & would like him… she had no immidiate money but promised she would pay me in bits as & when she could.
As she helped me when I needed her I cancelled the sale and agreed.
since then she has moved him to a new yard … I do not know where & I’ve not seen him since & I have never seen a penny from my “friend”
I still have the horses passport as I thought until I have payment I’m not going to just hand it over.

where do I stand in terms of ownership , either getting the horse back or getting some sort of payment for him ?
Any help / advice appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[blitznbobs]

Its your horse. But you habe to find him and or your friend to do anything about it.

 

[JBM]

If she doesn’t tell you where the horse is I’d register him as stolen as it’s essentially what happened

 

[Abacus]

How well do you know her? Do you know where she lives? What contact details do you have for her? I’d probably be doing some undercover work to find out where she lives and then following her to the yard. Was there any kind of contract, even on text message or email?

 

[lannerch]

When you agree a sale and take a deposit you enter into a legal contract with the seller agreeing to sell the horse . To me to pull out is just as bad as the way your so called friend is treating you, you’re lucky the original buyer did not sue!

 

[Equi]

Did you get a written contract or have any texts to prove you wanted payment? If not it will be hard to prove she owes you anything.

First port of call would be to contact her again or track her down. Police will say it’s a civil matter and won’t be of any help, so if you want payment you will need to go to small claims but you’ll need more than just your word to prove you didn’t just give her the horse.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

You'll need to do a bit of detective work to find out where your horse is; you could put something up on the "Trace my Horse" FB page - but be aware that if you DO do this then the horse is likely to be moved as the person who's got him (wherever he is) will then suss that you are on to her ........

Trying to be gentle here as you said you "were in an accident", but 2 years without knowing where your horse is, is a long time surely to be unsure as to his whereabouts?? Have you ANY idea where he might be? Coz if so it might be worth asking around local yards, pony club/hunt, riding clubs etc? If you cannot physically do it yourself either because of the physical effort OR location then you might need to approach a Private Investigator (yes they do exist!) to do it for you.

Hope you find your horse. I think you have been very badly taken advantage of by someone who was obviously scheming and crafty. But sadly a passport is not proof of ownership and the person who's got your horse could easily take out another passport purporting to be the owner.

 

[Ossy2]

Something feels very odd about this story, how long ago did the “friend” move the horse, how long have you not known where the horse is?

But if this is for real I’d be foung my own digging follow her and find my horse that way then arrive with a trailer. Although could she argue you gifted her that horse? Did you ever agree any terms?

 

[Goldenstar]

Hire a PI find your horse take it back .

 

[ycbm]

Did you get a written contract or have any texts to prove you wanted payment? If not it will be hard to prove she owes you anything.

First port of call would be to contact her again or track her down. Police will say it’s a civil matter and won’t be of any help, so if you want payment you will need to go to small claims but you’ll need more than just your word to prove you didn’t just give her the horse.

The onus is on the taker to prove the horse was gifted to her or that she has paid something for it, not for the owner to prove that she didn't. If the owner says she didn't gift her and the taker can't produce any evidence that she did, or that payment was made, the court "should" find in her favour. And in that case, possession of the passport should be a help because it would have been illegal to sell or gift him without handing over the passport.
.

 

[canteron]

No help but like you I have had the worst experience with horse ‘friends’ - they can be the worst type of friend and a some of the more mouth than skill ‘freelance’ low level ones who pretend to be your friend are pretty good at helping themselves when convenient to them.

I hope you get this sorted.

 

[Deleted member 163966]

There are a lot of unanswered questions here to me.

How long ago was the horse moved? If this person is your "friend" you must have an idea where she lives and be able to get in touch: is she on FB, for example? What have you done to try to contact her and resolve this issue?

 

[Arzada]

If you want the money go to Small Claims. If you want the horse then find him and go and get him

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would find the horse and go and get him.

 

[Lauren1993]

It has been a year since he has been moved , I know the area where he is but no idea what yard. I’ve contacted her several times to make some sort of payment & it always I’m not working atm, I’ll send some money over asap, I have a job coming up so I’ll be able to pay you some … but nothing ever came.
no contract, but I have the messages where she said she’d pay for him & where she’s promising to pay some money.

I could find him but what can I do when I’m there ?! Just take him
I have his passport & microchip details - he is registered under my name.
He was brought as an unhandled 3 year old colt - I had him delivered, seen by the vet, microchipped, passported & gelded soon after having him.
so he wasn’t much to buy - £800
Then all the vet fees ontop
My concern is she will claim costs for his care since.
I mean in the best interest of the horse he is happy where he is - do I just hand over the passport & suck it up or ask for some sort of contribution towards his cost before I give the passport.
if not then ask for him back.

 

[Cortez]

Did you get a written contract or have any texts to prove you wanted payment? If not it will be hard to prove she owes you anything.

First port of call would be to contact her again or track her down. Police will say it’s a civil matter and won’t be of any help, so if you want payment you will need to go to small claims but you’ll need more than just your word to prove you didn’t just give her the horse.

If this was the case, wouldn’t everybody be able to just take a horse and then claim that the owner gave it to them?

 

[Fransurrey]

It has been a year since he has been moved , I know the area where he is but no idea what yard. I’ve contacted her several times to make some sort of payment & it always I’m not working atm, I’ll send some money over asap, I have a job coming up so I’ll be able to pay you some … but nothing ever came.
no contract, but I have the messages where she said she’d pay for him & where she’s promising to pay some money.

I could find him but what can I do when I’m there ?! Just take him
I have his passport & microchip details - he is registered under my name.
He was brought as an unhandled 3 year old colt - I had him delivered, seen by the vet, microchipped, passported & gelded soon after having him.
so he wasn’t much to buy - £800
Then all the vet fees ontop
My concern is she will claim costs for his care since.
I mean in the best interest of the horse he is happy where he is - do I just hand over the passport & suck it up or ask for some sort of contribution towards his cost before I give the passport.
if not then ask for him back.

Her care of him is nothing different to a standard full loan, when all expenses are normally attributed to the loanee. I would find him first, make the YO aware of the situation, then contact your friend in writing (not text), to arrange a meeting to discuss a) payment plan, b) full payment, c) a formal loan contract (since that is what you currently have and probably the easiest way forward if she is indeed a friend and you are truly happy with his care) or d) collection of horse.

 

[Abacus]

Regardless of what you paid, he is your horse and has a market value, and presumably you agreed a price with her when she said she would buy him. She does still owe you this money and although in hindsight it was naive not to agree a date on which she would have to have paid in full, the money is still owing.

If you took him back I am not sure whether she would have a claim for his care in the meantime, although if she does (purely from a financial perspective) you will have to calculate his likely market value against those costs, and see if it's worth your while taking him back.

The important question is: do you want him? Or the money? My inclination in your position would be not to let her get away with it - she doesn't sound like much of a friend if she has made no effort to pay even a token gesture of what she owes.

 

[Abacus]

The onus is on the taker to prove the horse was gifted to her or that she has paid something for it, not for the owner to prove that she didn't. If the owner says she didn't gift her and the taker can't produce any evidence that she did, or that payment was made, the court "should" find in her favour. And in that case, possession of the passport should be a help because it would have been illegal to sell or gift him without handing over the passport.
.

I'm not sure this is correct. If someone claims that a horse on my yard is theirs with absolutely no proof, is the onus then on me to prove otherwise? I would think it is the other way around: if the OP is claiming to a court that she owns the horse (which is not in her possession) she would have to provide documentation and text messages to show that the horse is hers and that the 'buyer' agreed to pay but hasn't done so.

 

[Ossy2]

Difficult one, ultimately if you want money or the horse you either need to go down the small claims court, did you ever agree how much she would actually pay you for the horse? Or somehow you need to go and get the horse back into your possession and yes find him and take him. Although if I was the YO of where he is I’d be reluctant to let the horse go if the person I thought was the owner was not around but you’d just need to deal with that, you have the passport So use that to your advantage.

 

[MagicMelon]

Personally I would go and pick the horse up immediately. Id literally visit all the yards if I had to. He is YOUR horse as she hasnt even paid a penny for him. Effectively shes just had him on loan so cant claim any costs. A contract drawn up at the beginning would have helped massively. I sold my last horse this way, the person (who I didnt know but lived locally) couldnt afford to pay in full so I drew up a contract and she agreed to tell me where the horse was at any time and paid me when she could. I did visit the horse sometimes and she did pay me, after about 18 months she'd paid me in full. Its certainly not something I would have done normally though. The horse is yours though, she's clearly not going to pay or even if she starts now, all trust is gone. I wouldnt have let her move the horse in the first place. Go find the horse and take it home. If she comes to you with ALL the money in cash then she can have the horse (if you want her to). I put a horse out on permanent loan, heard awful things from others on the yard my horse was on, so I drove a 4 hour round trip the very next day to pick up my horse telling the loanee the contract was cancelled. They went nuts, I dont care, my horses welfare was number 1.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I am not exactly clear whether you want the horse back or not. If someone took my horse without permission, moved it to another yard and 'forgot' to pay, said horse would be back home within a week.

 

[Lauren1993]

Thanks all.
I’ve messaged her & asked for some payment & where he is now kept & I will go from there.
I had an accident & had to have spinal surgery hence the hassle free quick solution I needed at the time.
If she wants to keep the horse that’s fine I’m happy with that as I know how she cares for them, but I would like some form of payment before I hand over his passport I guess.

 

[Landcruiser]

Some payment or full payment? You need to decide how much you are willing to accept, put it in writing, and give her a timescale to pay it - otherwise the horse must be returned to you. It's no good diddling around with payments as and when. After this amount of time, it must be one payment, and that's that. I'd give no longer that 14 days, tbh. It's not like it's a surprise to your "friend" that they owe you money.

 

[Lauren1993]

I think I’m obviously being too soft & being walked over but I find it really hard to confront people.
I would just be happy with something towards his vet etc. costs so around £400

 

[Abacus]

I think I’m obviously being too soft & being walked over but I find it really hard to confront people.
I would just be happy with something towards his vet etc. costs so around £400

That's less than you paid for the horse, as well as any work you did backing and so on. To me you sound too soft but of course it's your choice on what you want for him. It makes me cross that this so-called friend takes advantage in this way and makes me want to encourage you to be strict on her - but it's up to you what you ask.

 

[Arzada]

I think I’m obviously being too soft & being walked over but I find it really hard to confront people.
I would just be happy with something towards his vet etc. costs so around £400

If that's the price you agreed way back when then fine but if the agreed price was different you're confusing the issue further by not sticking to the agreed price.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not sure this is correct. If someone claims that a horse on my yard is theirs with absolutely no proof, is the onus then on me to prove otherwise? I would think it is the other way around: if the OP is claiming to a court that she owns the horse (which is not in her possession) she would have to provide documentation and text messages to show that the horse is hers and that the 'buyer' agreed to pay but hasn't done so.

I would expect the owner of any horse to be able to produce a signed receipt showing they had paid for it.

How is the owner of a stolen horse expected to prove they didn't give it away or get any money for it?

What if the horse had been stolen overnight out of a field? Would you expect the owner to prove they didn't give it away? How can they do that?

If this is a"balance of probabilities" and neither has any proof who owns the horse, then in my view possession of the passport, without which the horse cannot legally be sold or gifted, would sway that balance.

What you are talking about, I think, was whether it was wise to let this horse go without a written agreement. As the owner now knows, it wasn't. But she still owns the horse until the taker can prove otherwise.
.

 

[ycbm]

You don't actually want him back, do you Lauren?

I think that's probably what the "loaner" knows and is playing on.

Why don't you go and see her and try to reach an agreement?
.

 

[Xmasha]

Personally I’d pick the horse up . Anyone who struggles to pay £800 on a payment plan for a horse is going to struggle to pay vets fees / basic care etc .

Telll her she either pays by x date or you are collecting him and advertising him for sale again