Horse ownership proof

[Lilly829]

This is a bit of an awkward situation but basically I owned a pony for 6 years , I bought this pony as a young youngster and taught her basic handling , trained her, backed her and broke her in myself and when I had my first child I had been keeping her at a yard and I had a loaner for her , unfortunately the loaner was unable to loan her anymore and I couldn’t afford or have the time to do this myself , the yard owner basically blackmailed me into me passing her over to her care , as she was closing her livery yard she kicked everyone off and left me with a week to find a new home or new livery for her, and I was unable to find a cheap close enough yard within time and I passed the pony over to her with the intentions she would be well looked after and to allow me to opportunity to have her back in the future when I was in the right situation. She agreed with me and so I handed her over the over , to which she completely cut me off , blocked me on social media , refused me to see my beautiful pony which was heartbreaking for me to do. I have recently visited the field and the pony is not in a great condition at all, I have proof of purchase from when I bought the pony in 2012 . I never signed over the pony to the new owner, never gave her a receipt for purchase I only handed her the passport, where do I stand, is this pony still my pony? I really need some advise I have done my research and it’s saying proof of ownership is a receipt of purchase and a passport is only proof of horse identity.

 

[meleeka]

Tbh horse theft isn’t treated very seriously at all so you could always just go and take her. It would be up to the other woman to pursue you
through the courts if she hasn’t got proof the horse belongs to her.

Something similar happened to someone I know and possession seemed to be the important thing. (The “old” owner took it from its field and still has it. The people who claim
to have proof it’s theirs have had no luck with the police and can’t afford to fight in through the court).

 

[Red-1]

This is a bit of an awkward situation but basically I owned a pony for 6 years , I bought this pony as a young youngster and taught her basic handling , trained her, backed her and broke her in myself and when I had my first child I had been keeping her at a yard and I had a loaner for her , unfortunately the loaner was unable to loan her anymore and I couldn’t afford or have the time to do this myself , the yard owner basically blackmailed me into me passing her over to her care , as she was closing her livery yard she kicked everyone off and left me with a week to find a new home or new livery for her, and I was unable to find a cheap close enough yard within time and I passed the pony over to her with the intentions she would be well looked after and to allow me to opportunity to have her back in the future when I was in the right situation. She agreed with me and so I handed her over the over , to which she completely cut me off , blocked me on social media , refused me to see my beautiful pony which was heartbreaking for me to do. I have recently visited the field and the pony is not in a great condition at all, I have proof of purchase from when I bought the pony in 2012 . I never signed over the pony to the new owner, never gave her a receipt for purchase I only handed her the passport, where do I stand, is this pony still my pony? I really need some advise I have done my research and it’s saying proof of ownership is a receipt of purchase and a passport is only proof of horse identity.

You are correct that the passport is not proof of ownership, it has to be with whoever is keeping the horse, not necessarily the owner.

Yes, a signed receipt would prove a sale. So you can prove you bought her.

The issue will be that presumably the livery owner believes the pony was handed to her instead of livery money? Did you owe any money? What was she using the pony for? The livery owner believes that the pony is now hers?

In any case, with no doubt you saying that you understood that the livery yard was going to keep your horse for free, for you to have back at some unspecified time in the future....and now are not even sure that the pony belongs to you... it would seem like even you are unsure as to what the arrangement was!

I believe the only way to sort this out would be through solicitors, although the costs for that would likely end up as more than the cost of the pony.

 

[Lilly829]

Hi thank you for getting back to me, no the rent was completely paid up to date , she even over charged me two weeks after I left the yard so no fees were owed to the lady. No I did not expect her to provide a free livery for me , she took the pony onto her own land, in which she is just grazing So no cost for livery for herself, also her feet are over grown - which can only mean no farrier so not really much money looks like she has put into the care of her anyway. I gave her a fully broken in pony free of charge so the time, she had the opportunity and time to find a loaner which she could have made any money from. I did not arrange this correctly with the new owner you are correct , my head was in overload at the time. Thank you for your advice

 

[Lilly829]

You are correct that the passport is not proof of ownership, it has to be with whoever is keeping the horse, not necessarily the owner.

Yes, a signed receipt would prove a sale. So you can prove you bought her.

The issue will be that presumably the livery owner believes the pony was handed to her instead of livery money? Did you owe any money? What was she using the pony for? The livery owner believes that the pony is now hers?

In any case, with no doubt you saying that you understood that the livery yard was going to keep your horse for free, for you to have back at some unspecified time in the future....and now are not even sure that the pony belongs to you... it would seem like even you are unsure as to what the arrangement was!

I believe the only way to sort this out would be through solicitors, although the costs for that would likely end up as more than the cost of the pony.

I also handed her over on the conditions she was well cared for, not for any use as such , she isn’t being used for anything currently

 

[Lilly829]

You are correct that the passport is not proof of ownership, it has to be with whoever is keeping the horse, not necessarily the owner.

Yes, a signed receipt would prove a sale. So you can prove you bought her.

The issue will be that presumably the livery owner believes the pony was handed to her instead of livery money? Did you owe any money? What was she using the pony for? The livery owner believes that the pony is now hers?

In any case, with no doubt you saying that you understood that the livery yard was going to keep your horse for free, for you to have back at some unspecified time in the future....and now are not even sure that the pony belongs to you... it would seem like even you are unsure as to what the arrangement was!

I believe the only way to sort this out would be through solicitors, although the costs for that would likely end up as more than the cost of the pony.

Hi thank you for getting back to me, no the rent was completely paid up to date , she even over charged me two weeks after I left the yard so no fees were owed to the lady. No I did not expect her to provide a free livery for me , she took the pony onto her own land, in which she is just grazing So no cost for livery for herself, also her feet are over grown - which can only mean no farrier so not really much money looks like she has put into the care of her anyway. I gave her a fully broken in pony free of charge so the time, she had the opportunity and time to find a loaner which she could have made any money from. I did not arrange this correctly with the new owner you are correct , my head was in overload at the time. Thank you for your advice
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/horse-ownership-proof.772149/#4XyTR6VJAzs5cKH5.99

 

[Lilly829]

Tbh horse theft isn’t treated very seriously at all so you could always just go and take her. It would be up to the other woman to pursue you
through the courts if she hasn’t got proof the horse belongs to her.

Something similar happened to someone I know and possession seemed to be the important thing. (The “old” owner took it from its field and still has it. The people who claim
to have proof it’s theirs have had no luck with the police and can’t afford to fight in through the court).

That’s great to hear for a start haha I probably wouldn’t go as far as to take her back without permission , she would probably sue me for tresspassing. I was considering about just upfronting the lady and seeing how I get with doing that. As for court costs you are right , me being a person who probably wouldn’t afford the charges unfortunately, and I doubt she could either , I just don’t think I’m going to get anywhere with confronting her , thank you for your advice x

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I did not arrange this correctly with the new owner you are correct , my head was in overload at the time.

So you consider that lady that has her now to be her 'new owner'?

 

[Red-1]

Hi thank you for getting back to me, no the rent was completely paid up to date , she even over charged me two weeks after I left the yard so no fees were owed to the lady. No I did not expect her to provide a free livery for me , she took the pony onto her own land, in which she is just grazing So no cost for livery for herself, also her feet are over grown - which can only mean no farrier so not really much money looks like she has put into the care of her anyway. I gave her a fully broken in pony free of charge so the time, she had the opportunity and time to find a loaner which she could have made any money from. I did not arrange this correctly with the new owner you are correct , my head was in overload at the time. Thank you for your advice

I also handed her over on the conditions she was well cared for, not for any use as such , she isn’t being used for anything currently

I think you will struggle to prove anything TBH. When you look at your own wording "I gave her a fully broken in pony free of charge" then I think you will struggle to prove that the pony is still yours.

However, I would not recommend stealing her back either. You could end up with something against your name that would make your life harder.

You may find you have free legal advice with your household insurance. I would take professional advice. They may help you to devise a letter with the correct wording.

Meanwhile, if the pony is not being cared for then contact one of the charities to pay a visit. I would choose one other than the RSPCA as the horse seems to need to be near death before they will try to help out. Maybe WHW?

 

[Lilly829]

No I probably should have re worded it, I wouldn’t really no what to class her as considering she’s not signed anything to say she is a new owner , what would you name her?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I have no idea as I was not there when the arrangement was negotiated. Red1 has picked up on the same issue though, you say that you 'gave her' that certainly makes it sound as if you gifted her the pony.

Having posts on the internet worded like they have been certainly helps the lady that has the pony now as from your own hands you have typed 'new owner' and 'gave'.

 

[Lilly829]

I think you will struggle to prove anything TBH. When you look at your own wording "I gave her a fully broken in pony free of charge" then I think you will struggle to prove that the pony is still yours.

However, I would not recommend stealing her back either. You could end up with something against your name that would make your life harder.

You may find you have free legal advice with your household insurance. I would take professional advice. They may help you to devise a letter with the correct wording.

Meanwhile, if the pony is not being cared for then contact one of the charities to pay a visit. I would choose one other than the RSPCA as the horse seems to need to be near death before they will try to help out. Maybe WHW?

I gave her the pony on the intentions she would be looked after , she broke that by not following through with her words. However you are right I did give her the pony I just didn’t know if it made a difference if I didn’t sign anything, especially now that she has gone off her word. I never at any point said that I would steal her back , I do not approve of this. I would never trespass onto somebody else’s property either. I only asked for advice as to where I stand

 

[Lilly829]

I have no idea as I was not there when the arrangement was negotiated. Red1 has picked up on the same issue though, you say that you 'gave her' that certainly makes it sound as if you gifted her the pony.

Having posts on the internet worded like they have been certainly helps the lady that has the pony now as from your own hands you have typed 'new owner' and 'gave'.

Yes I completely understand this , but she did only give me a small period of time to try and find a new place to keep her and I thought that she would be looked after with this lady. I was just asking if proof of receipt is still valid enough despite the fact the pony has been handed to someone else but I doubt it by the comments

 

[Lilly829]

I think you will struggle to prove anything TBH. When you look at your own wording "I gave her a fully broken in pony free of charge" then I think you will struggle to prove that the pony is still yours.

However, I would not recommend stealing her back either. You could end up with something against your name that would make your life harder.

You may find you have free legal advice with your household insurance. I would take professional advice. They may help you to devise a letter with the correct wording.

Meanwhile, if the pony is not being cared for then contact one of the charities to pay a visit. I would choose one other than the RSPCA as the horse seems to need to be near death before they will try to help out. Maybe WHW?

And yes I will be notifying rspca or an organisation that can help

 

[Bellaboo18]

To be honest it sounds like you gave the pony away. Just because the current keeper isn't looking after her to your standards doesn't mean you can just have her back.
Probably worth trying to speak to the current keeper again; circumstances might have changed and she might be glad to give her back. Failing that I don't think you've got any right over the pony.

 

[meleeka]

No I probably should have re worded it, I wouldn’t really no what to class her as considering she’s not signed anything to say she is a new owner , what would you name her?

If you are going to pursue it you need to call her a ‘loaner’. Not strictly true but if you are saying you are still the legal owner, she can’t be.

 

[Lilly829]

To be honest it sounds like you gave the pony away. Just because the current keeper isn't looking after her to your standards doesn't mean you can just have her back.
Probably worth trying to speak to the current keeper again; circumstances might have changed and she might be glad to give her back. Failing that I don't think you've got any right over the pony.

Not looking after to any acceptable standards,not my standards. I don’t have high expectations. Are you saying the pony doesn’t deserve basic horse care?

 

[Bellaboo18]

Not looking after to any acceptable standards,not my standards. I don’t have high expectations. Are you saying the pony doesn’t deserve basic horse care?

Blimey you've jumped on that. Ok, just because she's not looking after the pony doesn't give you a right to have her back. Call the rspca.

 

[AmyMay]

You gave the pony away. And although there is no law of trespass to go and take the animal would be theft.

Think you've probably got to put this down to experience.

 

[Red-1]

I gave her the pony on the intentions she would be looked after , she broke that by not following through with her words. However you are right I did give her the pony I just didn’t know if it made a difference if I didn’t sign anything, especially now that she has gone off her word. I never at any point said that I would steal her back , I do not approve of this. I would never trespass onto somebody else’s property either. I only asked for advice as to where I stand

No, if you gave her the pony it would not matter that no one signed any paperwork, it is now her pony.

If it were me, and I was now in a position to have the pony back, I would make her an offer. If the pony is out of work and in poor condition, I would offer £500. Hopefully that would secure the pony's future, and would probably be less than the livery you would have paid if you had found a yard to keep it at.

 

[splashgirl45]

Blimey you've jumped on that. Ok, just because she's not looking after the pony doesn't give you a right to have her back. Call the rspca.

i wouldnt call the rspca, i would call the bhs welfare line or world horse welfare as they are more experienced with horses and will know if the pony isnt being looked correctly

 

[Lilly829]

No, if you gave her the pony it would not matter that no one signed any paperwork, it is now her pony.

If it were me, and I was now in a position to have the pony back, I would make her an offer. If the pony is out of work and in poor condition, I would offer £500. Hopefully that would secure the pony's future, and would probably be less than the livery you would have paid if you had found a yard to keep it at.

i wouldnt call the rspca, i would call the bhs welfare line or world horse welfare as they are more experienced with horses and will know if the pony isnt being looked correctly

yes going to contact either them or hoofbeats which is another equine charity, they are fantastic there x

 

[Lilly829]

No, if you gave her the pony it would not matter that no one signed any paperwork, it is now her pony.

If it were me, and I was now in a position to have the pony back, I would make her an offer. If the pony is out of work and in poor condition, I would offer £500. Hopefully that would secure the pony's future, and would probably be less than the livery you would have paid if you had found a yard to keep it at.

Thank you , I know all of this sounds a bit confusing, I never planned to just go and claim her back, I just wante

Blimey you've jumped on that. Ok, just because she's not looking after the pony doesn't give you a right to have her back. Call the rspca.

no I didn’t jump to anything , I didn’t like the first message that you put to me I think it was inconsiderate for you to assume that

Blimey you've jumped on that. Ok, just because she's not looking after the pony doesn't give you a right to have her back. Call the rspca.

no i have not jumped to anything I think your first message was uncalled for , the horse is not being looked after , do not just assume I have high standards. I asked for advice not someone to be judgemental, but what did I expect chucked myself into the equine industry

 

[Lilly829]

If you are going to pursue it you need to call her a ‘loaner’. Not strictly true but if you are saying you are still the legal owner, she can’t be.

Well apparently proof of receipt is proof of ownership despite the situation - which I own

 

[ester]

What happens if you decide to rock up and claim ownership and the new ‘owner’ therefore decides to charge you livery for the period of time that she has looked after her?
With no loan agreement I’d suspect she could get together plenty of evidence that she was gifted to her, bills etc for the period she has had her.

 

[Lilly829]

What happens if you decide to rock up and claim ownership and the new ‘owner’ therefore decides to charge you livery for the period of time that she has looked after her?
With no loan agreement I’d suspect she could get together plenty of evidence that she was gifted to her, bills etc for the period she has had her.

I wouldn’t pay it and that’s that, you can call me crazy but if you knew this women I promise you wouldn’t be defending her, I completely understand that she can say she was ‘gifted’ the horse and prove that she has had her there in her care (if you want to call it care) all I’m saying is I never signed her over to her , nothing in writing and I still own the reciept and the pony still has a microchip which has my name on.

 

[Lilly829]

I think enough advise has been given now, I have multiple of the same responses and it’s quite obvious proof of purchase is not always the answer to horse ownership. Thank you for the responses, despite some of the comments may have been unfair as I only asked for advice. I will take on board the advice given, i understand that I did hand the pony into the lady’s care and she probably now has a right to ownership despite the fact she is not caring for them in a proper manner. I have been told that recently a report has gone into a horse rescue centre I am unsure of where , however I am myself going to put in a report to make sure that this situation is dealt with. I do not think a discussion will the ponies new ‘carer’ will even be an option , and I couldn’t possibly afford a large court fee in which I probably would not win as they would say I ‘gifted’ the women the horse etc and I can see why.
Hopefully the care of the pony is considered by the rescue teams and something is able to be done .
I will post in here again once I find out any further information.

 

[Moon River]

Why don't you just get in touch, say your circumstances have changed again and you'd love to be able to buy pony back?

 

[YorksG]

I am a little confused, you say that you retained ownership of the pony, but would not pay for the livery while the pony has not been in your care. Presumably the pony has been eating and drinking and the boundary fences/walls have been maintained. This will at least have taken the womans time, if not money. Any owner could eave their equine on any-ones land if they land on hard times and collect it when their circumstances improve!!

 

[Lilly829]

I am a little confused, you say that you retained ownership of the pony, but would not pay for the livery while the pony has not been in your care. Presumably the pony has been eating and drinking and the boundary fences/walls have been maintained. This will at least have taken the womans time, if not money. Any owner could eave their equine on any-ones land if they land on hard times and collect it when their circumstances improve!!

No i handed her over to her under the circumstance she wouldn’t be sold on and I would be first to return too if she no longer could keep her. I would have no issue if the lady did a good job to care for her but she hasn’t been. As far as I was concerned there was nothing I could do, but new evidence to me showed that proof of purchase was actually the ownership which left me questioning if the pony even belonged to her now as I never signed her over to her or gave her any sort of purchase reciept