Horse panics with saddle or roller

Wagtail

Wagtail

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Anyone ever have a horse that did this? If so, did you ever find out what it was?

I thought it was the severe kissing spines my boy had. But that has been resolved with an operation. He is moving much better since, but still has explosions when he is working in a saddle or the pessoa. It is when he moves after the girth has been done up, or sometimes he can be working really nicely in the pessoa (as he was yesterday) and then suddenly try to yank his head up and then start to panic when he can't do it and rear, spin, bronc, and shake. Yesterday I pushed him through it and he worked really well again. Normally I would stop immediately, thinking he must be in pain. But a livery who was helping me yesterday said that she thought it was mental and it was because he felt confined, or that it was memory of pain. I have had the vet to him to ask about ulcers. Vet says he really doesn't think he has ulcers as he is a good weight, eats well, and his droppings are fine. He is also not sore in the areas where horses tend to react when the have them. In fact, when the vet came, there was nothing I could do to make the horse demonstrate this panic reaction. I girthed him tighter than ever before, which would normally guarantee a reaction, but nothing. He was very footsore at the time and I think that was preoccupying him. So my thoughts were that the panicking must be mental, if he didn't do it when he was in pain somewhere else. Your thoughts, please.
 
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Remembered pain perhaps, from before? Perhaps he is anticipating pain and panics before he can perceive that actually it doesn't hurt any more? If he was in pain for a while, the extreme behaviour could be something that he's become conditioned to do, I suppose.
 
Spudlet said:
Remembered pain perhaps, from before? Perhaps he is anticipating pain and panics before he can perceive that actually it doesn't hurt any more? If he was in pain for a while, the extreme behaviour could be something that he's become conditioned to do, I suppose.
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The specialist who operated on him told me that many horses failed to recover due to memory pain. It's so hard though. I think I will start to get these sessions filmed so that I can show the vet.
 
Have you bute trialled him at any point? If the vet is confident it isn't ulcers (because bute will aggravate them if there are) that would be my next step personally. Unless you have already of course :)
 
Does he only do it under saddle or the roller? i.e. if you lunge with nothing on does he still do it?

Here is a link for ulcers, scroll down to the video and it will show you where to palpate to check for ulcers- that buck skin certainly doesn't look like a horse you'd expect to find ulcers but the reaction is tell-tale

http://www.depaoloequineconcepts.com/library/ulcer_treatment_protocol.aspx
 
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Dab said:
Does he only do it under saddle or the roller? i.e. if you lunge with nothing on does he still do it?

Here is a link for ulcers, scroll down to the video and it will show you where to palpate to check for ulcers- that horse certainly doesn't look like a horse you'd expect to find ulcers but the reaction is tell-tale

http://www.depaoloequineconcepts.com/library/ulcer_treatment_protocol.aspx
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Thanks, yes I checked those areas and he does not react to any of them. No, he never does it without the saddle or roller. He is much worse when tied up to tack up than if I do it loose in the school or stable. So it makes me wonder if part of it is the sense of being contrained? However, he will do it if I tighten the girth and then move him forwards. He is not typically girthy though and will stand for it to be tightened without the slightest flinch. It is just when he moves afterwards and feels the pressure.
 
jesstickle said:
Have you bute trialled him at any point? If the vet is confident it isn't ulcers (because bute will aggravate them if there are) that would be my next step personally. Unless you have already of course :)
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Yes, I bute trialled him way back before his diagnosis of KS. But it made no difference to him at all. However, I do not think this proves it is not pain related as bute tends to only reduce chronic type pain. I think shooting, acute pain caused by trapped nerves and the like is unaffected. This is something that seems to happen to my boy suddenly, as though he is getting a stabbing pain. But I am thinking more and more that it could be remembered pain or just claustrophobia.
 
I would think that if it's purely mental you should be able to condition him out of the reaction by gradually associating the saddle / roller with a positive thing. I guess the question is whether that sort of fairly extreme-sounding behaviour is going to be something he might drag up in reaction to a situation when being ridden, such as the rider putting a bit more pressure onto him to walk past something scary for example? And if so, is that something you are willing to live with or not?
 
Spudlet said:
I would think that if it's purely mental you should be able to condition him out of the reaction by gradually associating the saddle / roller with a positive thing. I guess the question is whether that sort of fairly extreme-sounding behaviour is going to be something he might drag up in reaction to a situation when being ridden, such as the rider putting a bit more pressure onto him to walk past something scary for example? And if so, is that something you are willing to live with or not?
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You make a good point and it is my main worry. It is one thing him doing it in the arena or in hand, quite another if we are near a road or at a show. So far he has never done it ridden except for one time. It was just after I had tightened his girth from on board. So again it was the feeling of contraint that sparked the reaction. There is nothing worse than sitting on a panic struck horse.
 
I thought you might have already bute trialled him as I know how hard you've tried to get him right. I don't know the answer in that case but I so hope he comes good for you. He is such a lovely chap.
 
I did have a horse that used to gasp and panic about being ridden - sometimes. She had severe soft tissue damage inside both front feet, but whether each problem directly related to the other, I couldn't say.

We sent her to a very good horseman who got her back riding and taught me to manage with it, but she still scared me, had a less than 30% chance of staying sound with the feet and she just wasn't worth persevering with.

If you really want to try everything, have you tried sending him to a "take no ****" professional to see if they can get him to accept getting on with life?
 
jesstickle said:
I thought you might have already bute trialled him as I know how hard you've tried to get him right. I don't know the answer in that case but I so hope he comes good for you. He is such a lovely chap.
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Thanks. Yes, he really is a lovely person. That is the main reason he is still alive! Quirky, yes. It took me eighteen months to realise that the extreme spooking he would occasionally do when being led was actually him enjoying himself. I thought he was a nervous wreck, but the day I realised he was 'having a laugh' was the day I turned a corner in my relationship with him. He has given me glimses of being my perfect riding horse, so light and forward and not at all spooky when ridden. He's a strange soanso!
 
Wagtail said:
Thanks. Yes, he really is a lovely person. That is the main reason he is still alive! Quirky, yes. It took me eighteen months to realise that the extreme spooking he would occasionally do when being led was actually him enjoying himself. I thought he was a nervous wreck, but the day I realised he was 'having a laugh' was the day I turned a corner in my relationship with him. He has given me glimses of being my perfect riding horse, so light and forward and not at all spooky when ridden. He's a strange soanso!
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Well, whatever happens I wish you the best of luck with him.:)
 
I know a lady who had bought a horse who had very explosive behavour after a few weeks of having him. He had kissing spines went through the operation, recovered etc.

Unfortunalty for this horse his behavour never improved even when trained by professionals (i think he went to 3 who all gave him back) and became very dangerous and in the end it was decided to PTS..

I'm not saying it can't be a happy ending, but kissing spines must be very painful for a horse to live with so it may take a very long time for that memory to go.
 
I had a TB mare that was always funny about being tacked up, you couldn't have her tied up she had to be loose in the stable or held, you then had to do up the girth/roller very very loosely then walk her around the yard or stable once or twice before doing it up properly, if you did this she was fine and a dream to handle, if you didn't she would demonstrate a panic reaction and rear up and generally go a bit mad and dangerous!

She was very odd though, she used to do the same thing with riding in a school/arena, if you got on her outside the school she would plod in and then get on with work no problem at all. However if you got on her in the school you would have all sorts of frozen to the spot then leaping, bucking, rearing moments before eventually settling down. She was very bizarre and was like it her whole life, she had all vet checks imaginable but it just seemed to be her and if you worked with her in the way she liked you would think she was completely normal!
 
Wagtail said:
Thanks. Yes, he really is a lovely person. That is the main reason he is still alive! Quirky, yes. It took me eighteen months to realise that the extreme spooking he would occasionally do when being led was actually him enjoying himself. I thought he was a nervous wreck, but the day I realised he was 'having a laugh' was the day I turned a corner in my relationship with him. He has given me glimses of being my perfect riding horse, so light and forward and not at all spooky when ridden. He's a strange soanso!
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Daughter had an issue with pony being a bit spooky. however whenever I sit on him I just laugh if he spooks, and I swear he looks at me out of the corner of his eye glumly, and says 'hmmn didn't fool you did I?' He's much less spooky now because she realises he's not really scared, so nor is she scared he'll do something silly, so most of the time he doesn't bother, you might get a snort but no stepping sidewards for 3 foot
 
I would be inclined to work him through it, remembered pain can take time to erase and if you stop when he does it you are almost encouraging him to continue, it can then become more of a behavioural issue, him avoiding work. At this stage you have nothing to lose by pushing him, if he gets no better you retire, if he improves you can move on.

I would also treat him as if he has ulcers, not going the whole way with gastroguard unless you scope and find some, just look at his diet, exercise on a full tummy, give a small feed before work to reduce acid build up etc.

One of my liveries was recently scoped he showed a fair amount of symptoms but proved not to have them, I have however still changed his diet and management as I felt he was showing enough signs to be concerned, he is a different horse, no girthyness, less grumpy, stopped drooling during work and is going and looking better, not that he looked bad in his coat or condition he just looks even better now.
It would be worth trying with your horse.
 
Spudlet said:
Well, whatever happens I wish you the best of luck with him.:)
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Thank you.

risky business said:
I know a lady who had bought a horse who had very explosive behavour after a few weeks of having him. He had kissing spines went through the operation, recovered etc.

Unfortunalty for this horse his behavour never improved even when trained by professionals (i think he went to 3 who all gave him back) and became very dangerous and in the end it was decided to PTS..

I'm not saying it can't be a happy ending, but kissing spines must be very painful for a horse to live with so it may take a very long time for that memory to go.
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Thanks. Yes, I think that some never get over it sadly.

Liane said:
I had a TB mare that was always funny about being tacked up, you couldn't have her tied up she had to be loose in the stable or held, you then had to do up the girth/roller very very loosely then walk her around the yard or stable once or twice before doing it up properly, if you did this she was fine and a dream to handle, if you didn't she would demonstrate a panic reaction and rear up and generally go a bit mad and dangerous!

She was very odd though, she used to do the same thing with riding in a school/arena, if you got on her outside the school she would plod in and then get on with work no problem at all. However if you got on her in the school you would have all sorts of frozen to the spot then leaping, bucking, rearing moments before eventually settling down. She was very bizarre and was like it her whole life, she had all vet checks imaginable but it just seemed to be her and if you worked with her in the way she liked you would think she was completely normal!
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How peculiar. They are such funny things. I wonder if that is what I am going to have to do with mine.

Dubsie said:
Daughter had an issue with pony being a bit spooky. however whenever I sit on him I just laugh if he spooks, and I swear he looks at me out of the corner of his eye glumly, and says 'hmmn didn't fool you did I?' He's much less spooky now because she realises he's not really scared, so nor is she scared he'll do something silly, so most of the time he doesn't bother, you might get a snort but no stepping sidewards for 3 foot
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Ha, yes. My boy has practically stopped it all together now that I've stopped jumping out of my skin when he does it, and instead just stand there smiling at him. :D
 
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be positive said:
I would be inclined to work him through it, remembered pain can take time to erase and if you stop when he does it you are almost encouraging him to continue, it can then become more of a behavioural issue, him avoiding work. At this stage you have nothing to lose by pushing him, if he gets no better you retire, if he improves you can move on.
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Yes, this is definitely the way I am intending to go. I have tried everything else. As you say, I have nothing to lose.

I would also treat him as if he has ulcers, not going the whole way with gastroguard unless you scope and find some, just look at his diet, exercise on a full tummy, give a small feed before work to reduce acid build up etc.
One of my liveries was recently scoped he showed a fair amount of symptoms but proved not to have them, I have however still changed his diet and management as I felt he was showing enough signs to be concerned, he is a different horse, no girthyness, less grumpy, stopped drooling during work and is going and looking better, not that he looked bad in his coat or condition he just looks even better now.
It would be worth trying with your horse.
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Again, I agree. He has been on Pure feeds Easy for six months now, and is fed haylage before exercise, as well as being out 24/7 all through the summer, and still is. I will feed him ad lib forage once he is coming in at night.
 
I had a 4yro in to break once who was like this.

Sometimes would just explode with the roller or the saddle and run blindly.

I sent him back home to be investigated and he had nerve damage and deep tissue issues through his girthline on his nearside.
After quite a bit of work and therapy he did come right and he came back to me to be backed and we had no issues :)

Same as your boy, some days he was fine but some days he would just go without warning.
 
millitiger said:
I had a 4yro in to break once who was like this.

Sometimes would just explode with the roller or the saddle and run blindly.

I sent him back home to be investigated and he had nerve damage and deep tissue issues through his girthline on his nearside.
After quite a bit of work and therapy he did come right and he came back to me to be backed and we had no issues :)

Same as your boy, some days he was fine but some days he would just go without warning.
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Can I ask how they found this damage? Problem with this horse is you can palpate him all you like and not get a single flicker of a pain response. :confused:
 
My TB was very panicky about the saddle when we first got him home - he had a full on hissy fit when I tried a friends saddle on him for size and girthed it up, and then when when the saddler came out with some different saddles and my husband got on him. Rearing, bucking, twisting like a bronco, the works. Both times it was caused by touching him behind/underneath the cantle area. After I decided he was too dangerous to get on (I was pregnant at the time!) we arranged some physio sessions and he got a lot better. I agree with you about the memory of pain as he still has the odd 'hunchback' moment and still doesn't like being touched behind the saddle, but the reaction is not as extreme. Is there a specific area on your boy he's most sensitive to?

I hope it works out for you and your horse.
 
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