Horse Play that always ends in tears... help!

[HermanvonHalle]

I have a 7 yr old 17.2hh Irish Draught and a 5 year old 15hh cob, both geldings. The little cob is the boss, but is not a bully in anyway. They are completely inseparable, like to graze 3 feet apart, hack out beautifully together, whinny for each other if one is bought in etc. They are absolutely perfect in the field together 99% of the time, but at some point the ID will decide he has enough grass in his belly, is bored and wants to play. The little cob is much more mature and chilled out and is more interested in sleeping and eating and tries to ignore him, but is basically chased around the field by this huge ID biting his bottom, trying to pick him up by his rug etc. Eventually the little cob will give in and they will have some big 'play' fight - standing up on the hind legs and boxing, galloping around the field etc but eventually the cob gets bored and wants to be left alone and the ID won't listen. He goes on and on and on.... until the cob eventually boots him really badly, or bites him.

We've had 3 nasty injuries in the past 3 weeks, one which required a vet, all on the big ID who is a gentle giant really and doesn't seem to really bite or kick back. To him its all a fun game.

The current living situation is that they are at full livery during the week, where they are turned out separately but in adjoining paddocks (the yard owners think I'm crazy to put them out together and have seen what happens when I do). Then at weekends we pick them up and keep them at home (we have about 5 acres). They are very happy doing this and it definitely doesn't bother them.

I'm sure everyone will say to separate them but when I have done that at home they just walk up and down the line of the fence or stand next to each other at the fence and don't seem happy at all... They don't do this at livery however.

Things are coming to a head as they are now being moved permanently to my parents farm 100 miles away and I am trying to figure out what to do about their field, where to put the troughs etc...

They will have a MUCH larger grazing acreage (about 10 - 15 acres compared to about 2.5 before) and so I am hoping that perhaps a change in environment and more space will stop this from happening.

Does anyone have anything else that could solve this problem - I am open to anything; putting sheep in with them, horse behaviourist, removing their hind shoes.... I am nearly 5 months pregnant and won't be doing much riding this winter so would love to just have them both out and happy together - help!!

 

[be positive]

A big horse can easily kill a sheep so I would leave that idea out of the equation, definitely take shoes off, no reason to leave any on if they are having a break then I would make a field as big as possible so they move about constantly, it may take the edge off his energy but keep a smaller area the cob can be moved into if required.
I think part of the problem is that the big boy is alone all week then they go in together for just 2 days so he gets carried away, I suspect he is over fed and underworked and has far too much energy then once he gets going he just doesn't know when to stop and hasn't learned by being kicked that enough is enough, how he learns that is tricky as it is something most horses learn when they are younger and smaller than the rest of the herd and why herd turnout is so beneficial for youngsters, he may settle down better if he is out 24/7 through the winter and using his energy eating to keep warm, so no rugs or hay unless it is essential, let him work harder for food.

 

[Goldenstar]

The ID may well pick up the sheep !
I would cure this with work that's always my answer to horses than are a nuisance in the field
However it sounds that might not be a option a seven hers old ID needs to be in work they do exactly the sort of stuff you describe when they are bored.
Could you perhaps look for a sharers near your parents .
I would certainly remove the hind shoes in fact I would remove all the shoes if they are not in work .
Don't give them any rugs .
Congratulations on the baby very exciting .

 

[Luci07]

I think it is the change in routine which doesn't help! 5 days on their own and then 2 days together...I would take off shoes, let them go a little feral and make the most of the space. Cut out hard feed as well as I agree, lots of food, not enough work causes most horses to misbehave!

 

[DD]

We had a shetland who was a perfect childs pony gentle and forgiving. He used to chase and kill lambs and chase the sheep around. you never know.

 

[Annagain]

I'd take their hind (at least) shoes off, cut down (out) their feed and let them get on with it. Once they're in a routine I'm sure the playing will be less exciting.

 

[Woolly Hat n Wellies]

We had a shetland who was a perfect childs pony gentle and forgiving. He used to chase and kill lambs and chase the sheep around. you never know.

That's very interesting (in a horrid sort of way!), some friends of mine had a miniature Shetland companion pony, and the horses shared the paddock next to the house with the two rams when they weren't in with the ladies. Friends were woken up in the night by a loud thumping on the house wall, and rushed down to find the pony had the ram pinned against the wall, had torn its ear with its teeth, and was braying the hell out of it. Very unexpected and very sudden. I'd hate to see the damage a bigger horse could do to a sheep.

I'd be inclined to go for more space and horses together permanently with all shoes removed, or separated by a fence permanently and left to get used to it. The change between together and separate sounds like its just too unsettling/exciting.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think that the separate paddocks in the week and together at the weekend is playing a part here.

I would pull all shoes, stop all hard feed and turn them out together. You should be able to have them unrugged too as long as they have shelter and plenty of forage.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Please do not turn them out with sheep.

 

[AdorableAlice]

The real meaning of horse play I guess.

I gave my big horse a year old bullock for company a few years back. The horse, who is the most gentle, mannerly and sweet horse you could hope for, terrorised the poor bullock. The little bullock was called One Ball, I will leave you to guess why. The horse could have equine company but could be and remains territorial, probably due to him being a stallion until he was 9, so it was always risky to give him company. I thought he would like the presence of something in his paddock, and he did, until he decided that he didn't ! it was all a bit random and unpredictable as to when the horse would decide he wanted to be on his own. Weeks could pass and then suddenly he would pick his mate up and use him as a football.

I would think the OP's big young horse is just being a thug and will grow up eventually. A big field, no shoes and no real human intervention to prevent jealousy or food proud behaviour should do the trick. I would block any tight corners too, just in case the big one managed to trap the little one and let rip.

 

[pennyturner]

This would be much worse if the cob weren't the boss. As it is, a larger acreage is a good step. Remove the shoes, and any other hazards you can identify (e.g. rugs and trappy corners) and let them get on with it. Eventually the ID will learn some manners.

 

[kez81]

I agree regarding removing all shoes if they are not in work and just giving them time to sort things out for themselves. As to putting sheep in, I would give them a chance to settle and then maybe add a few in later on and see how it goes. Some horses like sheep, some don't. All three of mine are fine with them. Apollo and Prince just ignore them and the lambs use Boomerang as a trampoline when he is having a snooze!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We have 2 mares who have had to be separated because they fight - no hint of play involved! They both are fine with the sheep but our sheep have access to a run off round the fields, where the horses can't get to them.
As for your horses, I would take all shoes off, give them access to plenty of acreage, remove all rugs and let them get used to being together. I am another who thinks that the frequent change to routine, especially as they are on their own for 5 days (which I would never advocate).

 

[HermanvonHalle]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to repsond today - I really appreciate it. Also good to know that the sheep are too much of a risk, my parents would not have been happy!

I wish more work was the answer, however they have been worked all summer 6 days a week and have been hunted once a week for the past month so more work isn't really an option. They are doing really varied work too, so I don't think its a boredom thing. The fitter and in harder work they have got, the worse the ID has got at wanting to 'play.'

Likewise on the routine front I insisted on having them turned out together for a month or so at the yard when they first arrived (and were living at the yard full time) and the 'playing' was happening on a daily basis, ending in various levels of damage. I have insisted again and again to try turning them out together and after a fortnight an injury happens that is significant enough to force me to separate them.

The ID has a few other pretty odd traits - door banging in the stable, picks up his feed bucket and throws it across the field then eats the food off the floor, paws at his poos... He is super inquisitive and wants to put everything in his mouth. When I bought him he had been badly neglected, had severe malnutrition, was extremely nappy and even bucked the girl off in the vetting. He was also terrified of men. I bought him because I felt sorry for him :/ He has come on leaps and bounds and is such a happy chap now but some of the old habits remain - which is why I wonder if seeing a behaviourist might help him...

The ID is also an extremely poor doer, a bottomless pit and loses weight in an instant. We have worked so hard to build him up slowly and he is now in good condition so I am extremely nervous about putting him out in a field with no rugs 24/7 since I saw the effect that had on him at the end of last winter when I bought him. He was skin and bone. Even him being out at night last week when it got a bit chilly has meant he lost a significant amount of weight and has had to be bought in at night.

Because of this (and to try and save the fields somewhat) I had been planning on rugging them, bringing them in at night, feeding enough to keep him going and there is a very experienced girl locally who wants to ride them 3 times a week or so.

However from your guys advice perhaps I would be better to ditch the rugs, take him out of work, off with the shoes, out 24/7 and just keep a super close eye on him and see what effect it has on him.

Sorry for mega post, thank you all so much, its great to talk this over with you all. Just want my boys to be happy!

 

[Louby]

I think some horses just play together more than others. My last boy and my friends horse played so rough that my boy ended up with a fractured leg. They werent nasty with each other, just very rough. I used to cringe watching them. After this we had to seperate them with electric fencing, so they could graze together but not play. I felt awful but it was that or potentially have a life threatening injury. When I moved yards, he was totally different with his new friends, it was great, he had the company he deserved but never played rough with them.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

What are you feeding the ID?
I had a WelshxTB mare who had a similar beginning to your boy. She had been kept very short of food, had to fight for what she did get, as a 2 yr old, so didn't get much and then was bought back by the breeder who fed her up on just about everything she could think of and then sold her to me. Several years later we realised that her behaviour problems were caused by intolerance of sugar and cereal in her diet. When we removed them, she was like a different horse. We think that her digestive problems stemmed from the near starvation in her early life.
You could give yours, or arrange for him to have, a daily feed of soaked grassnuts and grasschaff to help him to maintain condition. They are easily digested and not usually heating, so won't add to his 'fighting spirit'.