Horse potentially much older than what I thought I bought

[1nd1c03]

Bought a lovely lovely mare approximately 3 months ago now. I was told she was rising 6.

She was originally from Ireland, bought over earlier this year by a lady who produces them then sells on (a dealer but not in the traditional sense!). Seller had her vetted originally, I saw the certificate and it says 6. Passport gives date of birth saying 6. Seller had dentist check horses teeth and confirm age on arrival, dentist confirms 6.

Had the horse vetted myself, vet confirmed the horse was 6.

Tonight I have the dentist out to check my horses. He opens her mouth and says ‘I thought you said you had a youngster’.

Long story short the dentist reckons the horse is mid teens, he has sent pictures of her teeth to dentist friends who have aged her between 12-15.

I’m pretty upset, I thought I had bought a youngish horse I could put my own stamp on and enjoy for many many years. I’ve spoken to the seller who is also upset as she bought her from a trusted friend.

The horse is everything i was looking for (aside from being up to 10 years older) and I’m too soft to send her back.

Is it possible that numberous people have potentially messed up ageing her by her teeth? Do you think I have any recourse with the vet who undertook my vetting?

I feel so stupid but I don’t think I could have done anything differently.

Argh horses!!!!

 

[spacefaer]

Is the passport her original foal passport, issued in the first year of her life, or has it been issued more recently?

I assume that her microchip matches her passport?

The two vets (seller's and yours) will have taken her age from her passport. Was seller's dentist asked "is she 6" or "how old is she" - ie was he given free rein to age the horse, or was he asked to confirm what the passport said?

Sounds like the only person who has looked at her teeth with no preconceived idea of age is your own dentist.....

There's a world of difference between 6 yr old teeth and 12 -15 yr old teeth.

 

[stormox]

Post a picture of the teeth. Front side and tables- it will be fairly easy to tell. Does she have white passport (no breeding) or green/blue (breeding)?

 

[Goldenstar]

The horse is six it should be microchipped, have you had it scanned ?
Horses teeth can vary enormously but I would not have thought that much .

 

[1nd1c03]

Is the passport her original foal passport, issued in the first year of her life, or has it been issued more recently?

I assume that her microchip matches her passport?

The two vets (seller's and yours) will have taken her age from her passport. Was seller's dentist asked "is she 6" or "how old is she" - ie was he given free rein to age the horse, or was he asked to confirm what the passport said?

Sounds like the only person who has looked at her teeth with no preconceived idea of age is your own dentist.....

There's a world of difference between 6 yr old teeth and 12 -15 yr old teeth.

Thank you. Passport was issued this year, microchip matches to her passport. Not sure about how it was worded, but I will be asking another vet their opinion without saying anything beforehand.

 

[twiggy2]

My kids first pony was aged by her teeth as being 9 yrs younger than her passport, she was registered and chipped and passport. The age we were given and was on the passport was correct, dentistry aging was wrong.

 

[spacefaer]

Thank you. Passport was issued this year, microchip matches to her passport. Not sure about how it was worded, but I will be asking another vet their opinion without saying anything beforehand.

So somebody has chipped and passported her as a horse born in 2012 while it would appear from unbiased dentists opinions that she was born around 2006 or earlier.......

 

[frostyfingers]

Mine was chipped and passported and sold as “9” but when I had him vetted the vet suggested that by his teeth he was more likely 11. It didn’t put me off and a bit of research has found that although he’s on a white Irish passport he’s likely to have been imported from Eastern Europe (he has an unidentifiable brand) as a youngster and then chipped/passported which accounts for the missing two years. Those don’t bother me but I can understand why you’re upset by such a large discrepancy.

I’m not sure what your options are re the seller, if any but I suppose if you have a 2nd opinion which comes back the same then you’ll at least know what you’ve got.

 

[sport horse]

I would have expected your vet to notice the age. He is given a passport issued this year for a 6 year old horse but does not check its teeth????

 

[HashRouge]

I don't think aging by the teeth is always accurate, though I'll admit I know nothing about it! My Arab was aged by a dentist as being in her mid-teens when her passport said she was 9. However I believe the passport age, as I had contact with her breeder, saw foal photos etc (which were unmistakably her) and the stallion she is by was only 4 when she was born, and had his first breeding season as a 3 year old, so she couldn't conceivably be any older and be by the same stallion. As she is the absolute spitting image of him, I'm inclined to think the breeder didn't have some nefarious plot going on and the dentist just got it wrong. Either way, I would try to put it from your mind and just enjoy the lovely horse that you have

 

[claret09]

totally agree. if she is older then you can just crack on possibly quicker than you would have. just enjoy

I don't think aging by the teeth is always accurate, though I'll admit I know nothing about it! My Arab was aged by a dentist as being in her mid-teens when her passport said she was 9. However I believe the passport age, as I had contact with her breeder, saw foal photos etc (which were unmistakably her) and the stallion she is by was only 4 when she was born, and had his first breeding season as a 3 year old, so she couldn't conceivably be any older and be by the same stallion. As she is the absolute spitting image of him, I'm inclined to think the breeder didn't have some nefarious plot going on and the dentist just got it wrong. Either way, I would try to put it from your mind and just enjoy the lovely horse that you have

 

[SEL]

Have you got BHS gold membership? Might be worth a chat with their legal team because that is a big age difference and should have been spotted imo. If the seller is a friend though then it depends on how much you value the friendship....

 

[Mule]

There's something called a Galvayne's groove which appears on the top corner incisors at around 12 on. It grows further downwards with age. That would tell if she's in her teens.

 

[Laika]

The opposite happened to a very good friend of mine. Thought she'd bought a 10 year old but figured out afterwards that she was actually very young, which was a problem as this horse had been bought for her novice husband.

Don't threat too much, because your dentist could have been wrong as others have said, their teeth can vary a lot. However, even if they are 12-15, as you have said yourself the horse is otherwise perfect and I'm sure you can have a fantastic bond and relationship for many years. Some horses are active until their late 20s, it's not that uncommon now a days !

 

[stormox]

A horse can be aged fairly accurately up to age 8. It gets a bit less accurate as they get older but there would be a definite difference between the teeth of a 6yr old and a mid teens one!!
I come from an age before passports and all we had was teeth to age horses.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Horse can vary wildy with teeth-its sometimes a very innaccurate way of aging. I had a vet put one of my horses as being two years younger and another very insistant that one was at least 3 years older-when I had him since a weanling. I can understand the shock though. That is a big gap but depending on how they're kept and done as youngstera can impact on their teeth-as can genetics.

 

[stormox]

Teeth can be out by a few years I agree. But they are fairly accurate before 8yrs. But the main problem here IMO is if the horse has a passport that says hes 6 and he is really 10 years older either its the passport for another horse or a made up one by a dodgy vet! So what other problems arent being disclosed by the seller?

 

[Antw23uk]

What is this obsession with getting young horses. They dont all drop dead when they get to their teens you know! I think one of the youngest horses at Burghley this year was 15 or 17? Yes I would be a bit miffed but if the horse is ticking all the boxes and you are enjoying yourself then crack on and enjoy yourself.

 

[Mule]

What is this obsession with getting young horses. They dont all drop dead when they get to their teens you know! I think one of the youngest horses at Burghley this year was 15 or 17? Yes I would be a bit miffed but if the horse is ticking all the boxes and you are enjoying yourself then crack on and enjoy yourself.

Well if it's the case that the seller or the previous seller lied about it's age, it's fraud. Things might work out fine but fraud is not on.

 

[Crackerz]

What is this obsession with getting young horses. They dont all drop dead when they get to their teens you know! I think one of the youngest horses at Burghley this year was 15 or 17? Yes I would be a bit miffed but if the horse is ticking all the boxes and you are enjoying yourself then crack on and enjoy yourself.

Well, insurance starts increasing, older age issues such as Cushings/arthritis etc could possibly be on the cards. Of course these happen to younger horses too but generally more associated with mid teen plus equines.

That, and it's fraud.

 

[eggs]

I agree that ageing a horse by teeth is not an exact science but there is a big difference between the teeth of a six year old and one in their early teens which I would have expected the vet that vetted your horse to have been able to pick up on.

When I bought my mare she was sold to me as an eight year old and as I bought her from the person who bred her I had no reason to doubt this, coupled with the fact that she had a competition record for the previous three years. This was in the days before horse passports. My then horse dentist was adamant though that she was only five by her teeth so they can make mistakes.

 

[trefnantblackknight]

A horses teeth is not an accurate indicator of age it all depends on how they have been kept and who has done the previous dental work. However being six would mean she would have had a pretty terrible time mouth wise to be aged at 12 almost double but this is what can happen when a dewalt drill over heats the pulp of the tooth!

It could also be down the poor nutrition from a young age or combination of the two!

However I know one fab dentist who’s word I would trust over anyone’s so it does make you wonder if everyone else just followed suit and didn’t have the guts to say what they thought (her being older than 6)

I would get the vet who did the second vetting to confirm and go from there!

It’s such a shame for you if this all comes true but at least you have a lovely mare out of it either way!

 

[1nd1c03]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom! Having slept on it I am feeling more rational but still pretty peed off at the deception which has taken place at some point down the line! Don’t know how people can be so unscrupulous.

I don’t believe the seller to be anything other than genuine and she too is appalled at the friend and vet she dealt with in buying the horse.

Thank you for the idea about phoning the BHS legal team, I imagine they have come across this a lot sadly. I don’t particularly want to enter into the hassle and expense of pursuing something but I will definately be having strong words with the vets who did my vetting and will be getting my money back for it! (Will get another vet and dentist to give an objective opinion first).

I imagine it’s pointless trying to point blame at anyone in Ireland - the passport is obviously a load of rubbish!

I have been trying to post pictures but have had no luck. Although looking at the pictures I can see they are not a youngsters teeth

I keep reminding myself that if the dentist hadn’t have said anything I probably wouldn’t have realised for many years to come. Personality wise she is spot on and hopefully will be similar to my other horses and have many years of working life left!

 

[mcnaughty]

Well the seller isn't going to say any different is she - As many above have said, it is actually very easy to age them up to 8 and over that more difficult but for a dentist and vet to get it wrong is absolute tosh (sorry). I think I personally would be asking the seller for proof she had a dentist or vet anywhere near your horse.

Alternatively you could get a second opinion from a vet and then sent that report to the seller and ask her for her proof ...

However, if you are happy with the horse then just enjoy it x

 

[stormox]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom! Having slept on it I am feeling more rational but still pretty peed off at the deception which has taken place at some point down the line! Don’t know how people can be so unscrupulous.

I don’t believe the seller to be anything other than genuine and she too is appalled at the friend and vet she dealt with in buying the horse.

Thank you for the idea about phoning the BHS legal team, I imagine they have come across this a lot sadly. I don’t particularly want to enter into the hassle and expense of pursuing something but I will definately be having strong words with the vets who did my vetting and will be getting my money back for it! (Will get another vet and dentist to give an objective opinion first).

I imagine it’s pointless trying to point blame at anyone in Ireland - the passport is obviously a load of rubbish!

I have been trying to post pictures but have had no luck. Although looking at the pictures I can see they are not a youngsters teeth

I keep reminding myself that if the dentist hadn’t have said anything I probably wouldn’t have realised for many years to come. Personality wise she is spot on and hopefully will be similar to my other horses and have many years of working life left!

I would be extremely annoyed if I was sold a horse in its teenage years when I had bought one to bring on. I am amazed that people are saying they wouldnt mind if a horse was 10 years older than they thought!
1 - Its Fraud.
2 - What else is incorrect on the passport?
3 - if a seller lies once and gets away with it they will do it again and con someone else.

Have you checked the microchip and description (apart from age) match the horse, OP?

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Don't you have to look for the Galvayne groove? http://www.equinespot.com/horse-teeth.html

here is an image of the groove http://www.cowboyway.com/What/GalvaynesGroove.htm

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Thank you. Passport was issued this year, microchip matches to her passport. Not sure about how it was worded, but I will be asking another vet their opinion without saying anything beforehand.

She may also have just been microchipped and passported for the first time then - there are still people out there who haven't bothered obeying that law.

 

[Leo Walker]

I've had adult horses passported and the vet has just written what Ive said in the passport. I wouldnt believe what was written in the passport esp as it was done recently.

 

[be positive]

I would be extremely annoyed if I was sold a horse in its teenage years when I had bought one to bring on. I am amazed that people are saying they wouldnt mind if a horse was 10 years older than they thought!
1 - Its Fraud.
2 - What else is incorrect on the passport?
3 - if a seller lies once and gets away with it they will do it again and con someone else.

Have you checked the microchip and description (apart from age) match the horse, OP?

All of this, you have possibly bought something that was not as described by the seller but the person who you really have some comeback on is the one who was working on your behalf, who is qualified to assess the age and health of the horse and who will be covered by insurance for this type of professional mistake and that is the vet who vetted her for you.
A client of mine was paid out by the vets insurance for much the same, horse actually died, not age related, but she would not have bought it if she had known it's true age at the time of purchase, there was no defence as 2 experts were able to age it , my feeling was the vet hadn't even looked in it's mouth at the vetting and just took the word of the seller, no passports then, more recently I had a horse vetted and the vet declared it to be 4 years older than I was selling it as, I knew his history and was not prepared to drop the price when they asked so pulled out of the sale, aging is not always easy and people do get it wrong but to be 6-9 years out on a horse supposedly 6 does seem unlikely.

 

[ester]

So sellers vetting and dentist apparently said 6?, the vet that did your vetting said 6 (were you present and saw him check)? It is only this new dentist (and the friend they have asked) who disagree and say older?