Horse rocking backwards in field

Get a good vet, could be anything mentioned above, but I've also seen similar behaviour in a horse developing wobblers. He relied heavily on eyesight and being sharply awake to keep his balance, if he dozed off he'd rock and fall over, also had laminitis the poor thing :( no words for his owners!
 
When my old cob started yawning a lot, vet immediately said 'Heart', and sure enough there was hardly a heartbeat there when the stethescope [sp.]was put on.
This horse sounds to be in a fairly bad way - a really good VET immediately is required.
 
I always thought it would be quiet nice to come back as a horse in my next life ... But I've changed my mind just in case i come back as the OP's next horse!
 
Antw23uk said:
I always thought it would be quiet nice to come back as a horse in my next life ... But I've changed my mind just in case i come back as the OP's next horse!
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Wow .... nice...
How awful to be a horse that is sooo loved,cared for and has a owner trying to get to grips with what is wrong with him, calling the vets out, keeping a close watch on them and paying a bloody fortune to try and get to the bottom of it!

I don't think you need to worry about coming back as my horse .... maybe worry about coming back a poor neglected horse tied to pole somewhere starving/ being beaten and waiting to die....

What is the point of your comment....
 
A small update on the rocking, it has stopped out in the field. Whilst my horse was rocking he was muzzled. I watched him all morning as did other people on the yard and with his muzzle on he couldn't eat as since the frost the grass has got to short. I removed the muzzle and he is happily grazing, wondering around and standing normally.

Since the vet has come out and treated his cough his mood has improved, his cough has stopped and he seems much happier. He is still girthy but i have been in touch with the previous owner who said he also use to be slightly girthy.

As for the yawning he yawns when i come to bring him in, i am aware this could be a sign of pain but it is also a sign that a horse is relaxed. it may be that he relaxes when he knows its his turn to come in.

Back to his wobbling, he has done this a few times in the past, usually when he is brought in after a day on good grass (i have posted about this before, hence the muzzle) To me it seems he may not be getting enough sleep, he has a lovely big bed which he lies on probably once a week (brought in every night) and he doesn't really lay down in the field.... this could be pain related or it may even be because he had to work a lot harder to eat with the muzzle on ... or could be something else entirely I have caught it on video and will show the vet.
I did wonder about narcolepsy but when you call for his attention he wakes up and snaps out of it.

He has been ridden lightly over the weekend and was lovely, he has been free schooled and seemed to enjoy him self.

As i said i have the Vet coming back out and will discuss more about ulcers but on first check i was advised it was unlikely.

Please rest assured i am doing everything i can to find out whats going on with my lovely horse. As all my previous posts i am new to ownership so the tiniest little bit of odd behavior i instantly think omg he is dying and worry myself senseless. I know i come and post here a lot but its simply to hear other peoples opinions. I am not alone and have a lovely bunch of people at my yard who are constantly telling me he is fine and not to worry but i dont want to miss anything or ignore anything and it turn out to be something.

I simply post on here in the hope someone has had experience with the things i am posting about which people on my yard may not have seen before.

Appreciate all of the helpful advise, and as for the nasty comments what can i say, i'm trying my best
 
Wagtail said:
What's the plan, OP?
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I have just posted, a lot of waffle but the plan is to keep an eye on him now the muzzle has been removed. Vet is booked for Monday but if anything changes this will be brought forward.
I am in two minds about scoping as i want it done but only if i am advised to by a vet. I am going to discuss this in detail with the vet again. I don't want to put him and myself through an ordeal if it is just me being overly worried.
 
Horsekaren said:
As i said i have the Vet coming back out and will discuss more about ulcers but on first check i was advised it was unlikely.
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Do you have insurance? If so I would book in for a scope for ulcers. After being advised my horse was "definitely not an ulcer candidate and highly unlikely we would find anything" and only showing minimal symptoms, he was found to have grade 4 bleeding ulcers all over the squamous region of his stomach. Always good to rule them out before they start causing other problems, that is if they aren't being caused by other issues!
 
Horsekaren said:
Whilst my horse was rocking he was muzzled. I watched him all morning as did other people on the yard and with his muzzle on he couldn't eat as since the frost the grass has got to short. I removed the muzzle and he is happily grazing, wondering around and standing normally.

He is still girthy but i have been in touch with the previous owner who said he also use to be slightly girthy.

Back to his wobbling, he has done this a few times in the past, usually when he is brought in after a day on good grass [............] To me it seems he may not be getting enough sleep, he has a lovely big bed which he lies on probably once a week (brought in every night) and he doesn't really lay down in the field....
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The 1st 3 point to the possibility of ulcers. The not laying down sleeping is unnatural, he should lie down to sleep every day. I've no idea if not lying down could also be a sign of ulcers.
 
You may be doing this already but keep notes of anything unusual - dates, times, brief summary of concern. It helps you be more objective when you look back, especially with a vet. Totally different point but my new mare was lame when first shod by my farrier. Every time vet came she was sound but I knew she wasn't right do had written down exact issues and taken videos.
 
I hope your vet has some answers for you when he comes, horses are sent to us to drive us nuts sometimes :)

I have never used a muzzle on any of mine, are horses/ponies able to have a good yawn or wide mouth open session <like they do when they eat something which is not to their liking >when wearing a muzzle or are they quite restrictive in that area?
 
Update- Vet has been sent a video or my horse rocking in the field, advised that from appearance he seems be dozing off and losing balance (this is usual but common), advised to look for signs of lami but no signs what so ever, vet also said unlikely as they don't just rock back for a second and wake up but will be checked properly on Monday by vet.

I did swap him to pellets about 3 weeks ago and he hasn't been lying down in his bed much (never has despite having a huge deep bed always) but in 3 weeks i only noticed bedding on him once and he never lays in the field. i have added chippings back to his bed and making it even deeper and he has lied down two consecutive nights.

Mood has improved greatly, no faces what so ever. He still isn't happy with girth (never has been) and occasionally doesn't like back belly rug strap other than that all nasty behavior has stopped.

Besides the bed being changed and muzzle taken off he has now been off his antibiotics for respiratory infection for 4 days in which the mood has lifted... probably coincidence. Final change has been to give him his feed right away once he has been brought in, old routine was to groom, pick feet, change rugs ect before. This seems to have also helped.

He seems so much happier almost back to his normal self, none the less the vet is giving him a full check over on Monday, he will be having a Succeed test to see if there is any kind on indication that there is any type of irritation in his stomach or hind gut. Has anyone ever had one of these? Was it pretty accurate? if this is positive further action will be taken ie scope ect. If vet finds nothing i guess i will go back to checking back/ saddle ect .... again :(

Many of you commented that i was not listening to my horse but i absolutely am. Its just tricky when sooooo many things have changed in the last month that its hard to know if any of the changes are contributing

- bedding
-muzzle
-new feild
-split herd
-being worked less
-stabling over night
-breakfast feed added to diet so he can have medicine twice
-antibiotics and steroids / mites injections
-damp hay
-weather turned
-respiratory infection

Really hoping he keeps improving and look forward to seeing what the vet thinks about it all (again!) on Monday.
 
I wouldn't worry about him not lying down - most mature horses sleep standing up. In fact I knew one who had deformed front legs so couldn't lock them while he was asleep. He was PTS because he couldn't sleep, and didn't lie down for fear of not being able to get up again. As prey animals they don't get the hours of deep sleep we get.
 
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JillA said:
I wouldn't worry about him not lying down - most mature horses sleep standing up. In fact I knew one who had deformed front legs so couldn't lock them while he was asleep. He was PTS because he couldn't sleep, and didn't lie down for fear of not being able to get up again. As prey animals they don't get the hours of deep sleep we get.
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I thought they had to lay down to get REM sleep-they dont have to do it for long but they do need it.
 
Horsekaren said:
He seems so much happier almost back to his normal self, none the less the vet is giving him a full check over on Monday, he will be having a Succeed test to see if there is any kind on indication that there is any type of irritation in his stomach or hind gut. Has anyone ever had one of these? Was it pretty accurate? if this is positive further action will be taken ie scope ect. If vet finds nothing i guess i will go back to checking back/ saddle ect .... again :(
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My understanding is that the succeed test picks up signs of albumin that can indicate hind gut issues, and haemoglobin that indicates that there is a lesion or condition in the foregut that is actively bleeding. This would make me think that it will not show up if your horse has ulcers in the stomach that are not bleeding. So I would say its an excellent thing to do, but if it shows up as negative it does not mean that your horse could not have ulcers, only that the ulcers are not bleeding. I never tried a succeed test (my vets insisted on scoping) and he did indeed have ulcers that did not look terrible compared to some images I have seen, but that were clearly very painful to him, something I only learned when i saw how much happier he was after they were treated!

I know how hard it can be when something is wrong but you can't figure it out, just keep trying! In the end for my horse, and for many others im sure, it ended up being a combination of things, sacroiliac injury, hayfever, muscle disease, ulcers, grief and it took a lot of money and a long time to work it all out. Thankfully he has been going great guns, but just lately whilst he feels great to ride, his eyes seem a little less bright and he is occasionally grinding his teeth an yawning a bit, which he did when he had ulcers, so i'm trying to work out what might be up now.
 
JillA said:
I wouldn't worry about him not lying down - most mature horses sleep standing up. In fact I knew one who had deformed front legs so couldn't lock them while he was asleep. He was PTS because he couldn't sleep, and didn't lie down for fear of not being able to get up again. As prey animals they don't get the hours of deep sleep we get.
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They do need to lie down to get R.E.M. sleep, which they cannot achieve standing up. If they don't, you will start to see signs of narcolepsy, which may well be what the OP is seeing.
 
I have a yearling and I had just forgotten how much they can sleep. The older ones cat nap stood, some rarely seem to lie down, usually the one that stands watch while the others snooze.
The yearling has been reported as possibly dead at least twice this year, his field is by the road. He seems able to completely switch off while the others are miles away from him.
My old pony would lie on a slope to help him get up and I had a bank of straw in the field, which was warm and soft. I had him PTS because he was getting stiffer and I would have hated to find him stuck
 
JillA said:
I wouldn't worry about him not lying down - most mature horses sleep standing up. In fact I knew one who had deformed front legs so couldn't lock them while he was asleep. He was PTS because he couldn't sleep, and didn't lie down for fear of not being able to get up again. As prey animals they don't get the hours of deep sleep we get.
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horses most definately do need remsleep, which they don't get if they don't lay down, and...by the now 250 pages on the dutch forum (bokt.nl) I can safely say that 8 out of 10 times the unwillingness to lay down is due to stomach issues. Put the horse on gastrogard or Abler for 2 weeks and I will put money on it that things will improve.
 
leggs said:
horses most definately do need remsleep, which they don't get if they don't lay down, and...by the now 250 pages on the dutch forum (bokt.nl) I can safely say that 8 out of 10 times the unwillingness to lay down is due to stomach issues. Put the horse on gastrogard or Abler for 2 weeks and I will put money on it that things will improve.
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Thanks, that is a really helpful bit on info. I am really hoping the Succeed test shows something... not that i wish him to have ulcers but I'm convinced he has something going on in his hind gut. I read somewhere that a scope isn't long enough to get to the hind gut, is this true?
Has anyone ever had a Succeed test come back positive and been prescribed Gastroguard without a scope? or will that mean insurance wouldn't pay?
Or a negative Succeed test followed by a scope that showed gut issues /ulcers ect. I understand the Succeed test will only test positive if there is blood, is that common with most ulcer scenarios?
 
Horsekaren said:
I read somewhere that a scope isn't long enough to get to the hind gut, is this true?
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Yes, it is - the large and small intestines are a convoluted length many metres long, no endoscope is going to be able to investigate the length of that. Diagnosis by treatment is the most reliable IMHO, but if you are relying on insurance that could be a problem - ask your vet.
You could look into alternatives - you need something to reduce the acidity (including a low sugar/starch/cereal diet (sugars turn to acid in the system)), something to line the gut and something to boost the gut bacteria - I used donated human omeprazole with bicarb, micronised linseed plus slippery elm to provide the mucus lining, and live yoghurt for the probiotic. Lots of ideas on here if expensive treatments aren't an option https://equinenutritionnerd.com/201...tions-for-stomach-ulcer-treatment-prevention/
 
JillA said:
Yes, it is - the large and small intestines are a convoluted length many metres long, no endoscope is going to be able to investigate the length of that. Diagnosis by treatment is the most reliable IMHO, but if you are relying on insurance that could be a problem - ask your vet.
You could look into alternatives - you need something to reduce the acidity (including a low sugar/starch/cereal diet (sugars turn to acid in the system)), something to line the gut and something to boost the gut bacteria - I used donated human omeprazole with bicarb, micronised linseed plus slippery elm to provide the mucus lining, and live yoghurt for the probiotic. Lots of ideas on here if expensive treatments aren't an option https://equinenutritionnerd.com/201...tions-for-stomach-ulcer-treatment-prevention/
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Thanks for confirming.
I know i am not a vet but i really dont believe he has stomach ulcers, he is fed adlib, turnout 10 hours, small fast fiber and mag diet. If he is girthy, cow kicking, doesnt like being touched from looking at the positioning of the anatomy it has to be hind gut... Just has to be!!! im so sure of it. I really want him on GG but i want it prescribed and if possible i dont want him to go through the ordeal of being scoped if they aren't going to see them. If the Succeed test suggests there may be something going on in the stomach also then i want him scoped but if its all in the hind gut then its an unnecessary stress for him.
I don't want to mess about with trying to medicate and treat the situation without being guided by a vet :(




Are there different symptoms for stomach and hid gut ulcers?
 
My horses symptoms (scoped and showed ulcers but I also believe had hind gut issue) were ear pinning and trying to halt when asked to trot or canter when schooling, yawning, teeth grinding, anxiety, poor length of stride, generally a bit quiet in himself and pained eyes. The omeprazole stopped the ear pinning, grinding to a halt, yawning, reduced the anxiousness, but he only started to really lengthen his stride and move freely once I fed him equisure which is why I think he had hind gut acidity issues too.
 
Gastroguard doesnt treat hindgut issues. It can make them worse or in fact cause them in the first place! Girthy, cow kicking and not wanting to be touched are classic ulcer symptoms. He will need to be scoped, and if he has them, treated. During treatment you will need to support the hindgut. The succeed test can come back negative and there still be issues:

http://www.succeedfbt.com/what-fbt-tests/

You also need to look at what has caused the ulcers if he has them. They always have a cause and in most cases that cause is pain elsewhere.

Heres some information on ulcer symptoms:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/tag/gastric-ulcers

Heres some information on hindgut ulcers/acidosis. Theres a huge cross over and symptoms can be very mild to very extreme with everything else in between.

http://www.hygain.com.au/hindgut-acidosis-in-horses/
 
Leo Walker said:
Gastroguard doesnt treat hindgut issues. It can make them worse or in fact cause them in the first place! Girthy, cow kicking and not wanting to be touched are classic ulcer symptoms. He will need to be scoped, and if he has them, treated. During treatment you will need to support the hindgut. The succeed test can come back negative and there still be issues:

http://www.succeedfbt.com/what-fbt-tests/

You also need to look at what has caused the ulcers if he has them. They always have a cause and in most cases that cause is pain elsewhere.

Heres some information on ulcer symptoms:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/tag/gastric-ulcers

Heres some information on hindgut ulcers/acidosis. Theres a huge cross over and symptoms can be very mild to very extreme with everything else in between.

http://www.hygain.com.au/hindgut-acidosis-in-horses/
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Thanks , in all honestly looking back i think he maybe had them when i brought him. He had a 8 hr move in a lorry which didn't stop (dodgy dealer i believe) he was then at this dealers yard for a month where he dropped a huge amount of weight (i didn't know this was in such a short time but managed to track down old owner this week). When he came to me he was very spooky and seemed nervous however he soon settled. Every time there is a change whether it be turnout times, new field, stabling over night he seems to be get grumpy for a few days. The only difference this time is his behavior , he is more aggressive and doesn't like being touched on his belly. When i got him he passed a 5 stage vetting, has since had back and saddle checked every 3 months or so, teeth have been checked also. No signs of lameness.

I wonder if the poor boy had such a stressful ordeal in that month that it triggered them and all this time they have been flaring up every time there is stress of change added. Its only when you look back and dig much further you see a bigger picture.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I found that adding Aloe Vera juice into a low starch/low sugar diet soothed the stomach.
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Yes, I like aloe Vera juice/gel (the pure stuff that you can get from a health food shop) as an easy thing to try - it generally eases digestion and is very soothing. It's quite bitter tasting to me, but horses don't seem to mind it added to feed
 
ester said:
can you get him scoped on Monday too?
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No the scope is out all week, i have him penciled in for scoping on Friday morning as that is the next date the scope is free :(

Hence i'm keep to try and get some sort of treatment before scoping. I know the succeed test is a bit hit and miss but if its positive i hope they will begin with some sort of treatment .
 
When I got my boy he was in poor condition and could be very aggressive. He definitely had soreness in his stomach, as well as his back and legs, but thats another story! I put him on Pink Mash and Agrobs grass chaff, decent mineral balancer, and salt and ad lib hay. He got a course of slippery elm and bicarb in oil as well. we resolved the back and leg issues the hind gut issues cleared up pretty quickly. If not the next step was scoping, but

While you are waiting to scope him there are lots of things you can do diet wise. I really rate pink mash for anything like that. Its got protexin in, but just generally seems to be very good for any sort of ulcery issue. Slippery elm is good as well. I have used that on myself and it definitely helped me!
 
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