Horse shivering

[Mango_goose]

I’m such an idiot!

My somewhat unlevel horse has a state of the art set up - restricted lush grazing attached to a large pea shingle pen - about the size of three or four standard stables - it’s due to have a roof added next week over part of it but right now it’s sheltered by a small silver birch tree and two large out buildings.

Anyway, he brings himself in happily twice a day totaling 14-18 hours a day depending on his mood. When he’s done eating he brings himself and his friend in and just lurks in his pen - we close them in over night and they have lots of enrichment, toys etc. they much prefer it to being out and would rather have the grass brought to them.

Today when he came in he was caked in mud, it was warm and not due to rain. So I gave him a very quick bath about 7. He seemed a bit irked by the cold water and arched his back. Stopped and gave him his feed of soaked pony nuts, locked him and his best friend in the pen and went back inside the house. It rained pretty heavily but I didn’t think much as it’s been raining badly the last week (but was meant to be nice today). Came out at 10 when the rain stopped for a check and he’s bloody shivering. Friend is fine, although his tail is clamped down too which he does when he’s cold (but porky so I decided to let him shiver it off if he can). But my older boy looked so very upset. I’ve stuck a string run and lightweight necked rug on and I’ll go out for a check in a bit. Checking every hour until he feels better. He’s very tense around his back end and his tail is between his legs, he’s proper shivering. Seemed happy to have the rug on and came over and stood by it until I put it on.

Should I worry? I’m such a fool - I seriously should have thought twice about the bath but he was a greasy muddy mess and I wanted him to dry before turnout in the morning! He’s not shivered in front of me before hence my upset. Also hate rugging a wet horse but he clearly really needed it.

 

[meleeka]

In future just make sure you bath in the morning, so his coat has a chance to dry before the temperature drops. It won't be insulating at all if he's wet through to his skin, which is why horses are usually fine in cold, dry weather, but get cold when it's raining. I'd have probably put a 100g on him to speed up the warming process.

I'm sure he'll be fine, but lesson learned for next time.

 

[Exasperated]

In future just make sure you bath in the morning, so his coat has a chance to dry before the temperature drops. It won't be insulating at all if he's wet through to his skin, which is why horses are usually fine in cold, dry weather, but get cold when it's raining. I'd have probably put a 100g on him to speed up the warming process.

I'm sure he'll be fine, but lesson learned for next time.

Shivering thru cold: run him up and down the road in trot, get the circulation going as best you can, then put something like a thermatex on to warm /dry him out, or a breathable 100 g rug.
If he gets soaked, he’d be better turned into a decent sized field to run round and warm up, rather than confined to a stable.
Shivering his skin is a method by which the horse is trying to warm himself up, bit like you rubbing cold arms or legs, but clearly shows he is unhappy and needs to improve the situation.
I don’t think people appreciate how cold standing about in a stable is, particularly barn type boxes with open grilles and cross draughts across their backs. Horses are more likely to need a light stable rug overnight, than be rugged up in the field where they can properly move. Try doing the odd 3am emergency - you will definitely need your top coat!

 

[exracehorse]

One of mine gets cold very quickly if he’s wet. And once got colic because he had tucked himself up and didn’t poop. So be careful.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I really do not understand your pov in any of your post, OP. Why does an 'unlevel' pony need to be clean before turnout? I'm sure he would be quite happy to go out covered in mud and as you obviously won't be riding, he won't be wearing tack which could rub. And if you really wanted him clean, why not give him a good brush? As for not putting a rug on a wet horse whyever not? It's the quickest way to warm them up!

 

[PurpleSpots]

As for not putting a rug on a wet horse whyever not? It's the quickest way to warm them up!

Totally agree with this, sometimes double-layering them with heavyweights is the only way to effectively warm a horse up quickly to stop further deterioration to their situation, especially if the only place you have is an open field in the driving rain!

It used to be the case that canvas New Zealands didn't 'breathe', so it was accepted practice that you'd never rug a wet or sweaty horse, but all rugs are (should be) breathable these days.


I also agree with Exasperated's post, except I don't press them to move - them starting to move around again calmly as normal (as well as eating as normal rather than being shut down or grabbing at roughage) is their indication to me that they are feeling ok again, and the moment I go from 'Immense Worry' to 'Monitor with Reducing Concern'.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

I could say much, much more, but seems other have said it for me. But I will say please, please disabuse yourself of the notion that it is a good idea to let an overweight horse 'shiver' their weight off. It simply isn't a good idea at all and could be very counter productive and have a myriad of health risks if you try to use this method of weight loss.

 

[Exasperated]

I could say much, much more, but seems other have said it for me. But I will say please, please disabuse yourself of the notion that it is a good idea to let an overweight horse 'shiver' their weight off. It simply isn't a good idea at all and could be very counter productive and have a myriad of health risks if you try to use this method of weight loss.

Absolutely right.
Had this nonsense with an Equine Studies graduate (ha-bloody-ha), in relation to an elderly, arthritic, local pony.
Chucked it down overnight, icy rain and sleet, the poor little beggar finished up hypothermic and under veterinary care - following her ‘expert’ insistence on this advice to novicey owners.
What happened to common sense?

 

[Exasperated]

Totally agree with this, sometimes double-layering them with heavyweights is the only way to effectively warm a horse up quickly to stop further deterioration to their situation, especially if the only place you have is an open field in the driving rain!

It used to be the case that canvas New Zealands didn't 'breathe', so it was accepted practice that you'd never rug a wet or sweaty horse, but all rugs are (should be) breathable these days.


I also agree with Exasperated's post, except I don't press them to move - them starting to move around again calmly as normal (as well as eating as normal rather than being shut down or grabbing at roughage) is their indication to me that they are feeling ok again, and the moment I go from 'Immense Worry' to 'Monitor with Reducing Concern'.

Only thing to watch with this is, if you put two breathable turnout rugs on top of each other, the breathability is compromised by two layers of waterproof, and much more likely to find animal gets sticky beneath.
Layering beneath with non turnout rugs is better in this respect, but getting them warmed up is priority.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Horseware airmax liners under a LW turnout are a godsend for drying off wet muddy horses.

No one should be aiming to get their horse shivering, there’s a lot of nonsense out there about letting horses get overly cold so they lose weight.

 

[Sanversera]

Anyone who thinks it's acceptable to have a horse shivering with cold to loose weight should be stripped naked and told to stand outside in a snow storm.

 

[rextherobber]

I never use cold tap water to bath either, only tepid, if it's really hot, I'll spray them with cold water as a mist, or I'll sponge the sweaty bits off with a cold water sponge after work, but never just hose them down with cold tap water. I'd hate it if someone did that to me!

 

[Goldenstar]

I don’t where to start .
Check him if he’s still cold put a warmer rug on .
I would tempted to feed some sloppy food and then some roughage .
I would watch any signs of colic which can be triggered by getting cold .
You need to learn from this you make mistakes with horses you just have learn from them .

My horse is a fatty I keep him lightly rugged all winter but I would never let him shiver in an attempt to get him to lose weight .
I just don’t keep him toasty .

 

[Exasperated]

Anyone who thinks it's acceptable to have a horse shivering with cold to loose weight should be stripped naked and told to stand outside in a snow storm.

There’s definitely mixed messaging about this, confusion between ‘over rugging’ and not putting rugs on at all.
It’s compounded by owners really not appreciating what standing about, as in, in a stable or small enclosure, does to the horse’s natural ability to warm itself up by running around.
If the horse’s natural ability to find shelter behind a windbreak, under trees, lower altitude etc is also limited - potentially there’s a problem, particularly for an older or compromised one, and especially during foul weather.
Quick search showed plenty on the topic of rugs and obesity, which might be where misunderstanding arises.
Blue Cross: ‘horse obesity prevention & management’, ‘….rugging them unnecessarily can prevent the natural process of burning this fat and losing weight during colder weather. Remember horses do not feel cold as we do - only use a rug when absolutely necessary, eg during heavy wind and rain or if the horse is elderly’
Sounds straightforward, but potential for subjective misinterpretation by well meaning owners.
Another: ‘can over rugging your horse contribute to equine obesity?’ on bluegrasshorsefeed.com, citing various vets and experts, seeming to suggest horse rugs are a last resort -
- and, and, and, with similar from various horse feed manufacturers (who might just prefer the spotlight on horse clothing than too much feed!)
Quite an interesting doctorate from Tamzin Furtado, revealing how owners and keepers perceive obesity, and the social context within which those owners ‘manage’ it.

 

[Boulty]

Clipping & rugging can be something of an art form with certain horses & situations (& a lot more straightforward with others)

There absolutely are horses whose winter coat is not appropriate to the environment they’re living in. (On both ends of the scale)

Some grow something way too thick for a lot of the milder areas of the country and would be more or less sweating standing still if temperature is much above zero. Clipping these horses can massively help with their comfort either by doing a partial clip and not rugging or fully clipping and lightly rugging.

Some of course grow a truly pathetic winter coat or otherwise just really feel the cold / drop condition the second they feel mildly chilly. These horses frequently appear over rugged compared to the majority of the equine population but if it’s right for that particular horse and they aren’t too warm then it’s not really over rugging.

That’s without going into rugging for human convenience (cos who has the time to chisel several inches thick mud off before every ride?)

I’ve had one of each “extreme” (so have been both the person with an unrugged Irish clipped horse out in the snow perfectly warm & happy & the person with a bib clipped horse wearing about 400g of rugs in similar weather & just about warm enough!) and have definitely also been guilty of rugging cos I wanted a clean horse to ride!

Have just bought a youngster and wasn’t planning on rugging him apart from in horrendous weather for the foreseeable but he was a bit tucked up this morning after the rain & cooler temps so unless he grows a winter coat a yeti would be proud of I may have to rethink this. (Need to measure him this weekend as fairly certain he’s going to be 5ft9 to spite me / so I have to go shopping as I don’t have any rugs that size anymore!). For now we’ve given him some nets with larger holes in to encourage more forage intake

 

[tristars]

I think rugs today are fabulous, I got some horseware rugs last week light as a feather to throw over, the hero 100 grm, for now, the rain just runs off after the heaviest downpour

I got 250 grm for later, but I really cannot bear the thought of chilly ponies, living out as they are at the mo, get everything with the neck cover.

Having thermatex or any wicking rug is handy for quick drying when bathed lunge to warm up, use warm water and only bath at the warmest part of the day

People who have small Welsh ponies have mentioned that the very heavy coats can get saturated and do not dry out

Overall a warm horse suitably rugged is easier to warm up for work,

I see no benefit from being wet and cold for man or beast, as for shivering, to get weight off, control the feed, get the thing moving, increase fitness

 

[Sanversera]

I think rugs today are fabulous, I got some horseware rugs last week light as a feather to throw over, the hero 100 grm, for now, the rain just runs off after the heaviest downpour

I got 250 grm for later, but I really cannot bear the thought of chilly ponies, living out as they are at the mo, get everything with the neck cover.

Having thermatex or any wicking rug is handy for quick drying when bathed lunge to warm up, use warm water and only bath at the warmest part of the day

People who have small Welsh ponies have mentioned that the very heavy coats can get saturated and do not dry out

Overall a warm horse suitably rugged is easier to warm up for work,

I see no benefit from being wet and cold for man or beast, as for shivering, to get weight off, control the feed, get the thing moving, increase fitness

All the above in spades

 

[Cloball]

This time of year is tricky as their winter coats have barely started yet the rain and the wind have been pretty relentless for a few days here and the temps noticeably drop at night. My girl is tough as nails and would rather not be rugged ever but as said above is rather not chip and inch of wet mud off her to ride she won't be rugged until a bit later as it's still too warm for her. My partners arab I had as a teen though once came in shivering after a downpour at this time of year and we stuck all the rugs on her and stuff her full of forage to get the internal furnace going and she was fine but I learnt to put a sheet on her earlier.

I'm sorry but I do not understand the need to bathe (at all really unless you're seriously into showing) especially not those that are essentially out unrugged. But then I was brought up with field kept natives that wouldn't even see a body brush for fear that the natural oil would be stripped from their coats.

 

[Peglo]

Im another that would only wash my horse for a reason (very half attempts at showing etc) and if I was washing I’d be using warm water even to rinse and they would be as dry as possible before turning out in a rug, unless it was forecast to be warm and sunny all day.

I would rather tackle dried on mud with a brush than the mess of washing wet mud off anyway.

 

[Annagain]

My old boy spent his first few winters as a retiree out (in the day) naked. He grew quite the coat and was never soaked through or cold. Even when we had unprecedented rain that meant the whole village flooded and the rugged horses were soaked through under their rugs, his coat was dry underneath. You can, therefore, imagine how surprised I was one June when I found him shivering like mad after a fairly prolonged but not particularly cold spell of rain. I dug out a lightweight rug, threw it on him and within 20 minutes he was happy again. After that, to the day he died I always rugged him in summer if we were expecting a lot of rain. His last winter, he was rugged all winter too as he wasn't keeping weight on like he used to and that led to my decision the following October to say goodbye before winter took hold.

I never bathed him once after he retired. He was grey and had so many baths during his working life, which he hated, that I thought he could be as dirty as he liked once he stopped.

ETA - I think "shiver it off" is a bit of a problematic term as it is used by many in a very tongue in cheek way to say keeping their horses a bit cooler is one of the things they do to manage weight. This would be the context in which I'd use it rather than literally meaning they want their horse shivering. Last winter my horse was on box rest. He was naked and apron clipped as was sweating in his full coat and I often (jokingly) said I had hoped he'd shiver a bit of weight off when I clipped him as he had put so much on while on box rest. I never meant I actually wanted him to shiver just that him being a bit cooler might help.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Sadly, there was quite the drive a few years ago by many vets and even welfare charities to push owners to think it was ok for horses to be kept in conditions where they would shiver, promoting it as good for weight loss.

In particular, I was shocked to read a FB post doing the rounds during that time by World Horse Welfare that included encouragement to think that a shivering horse was fine, and even good. I wrote and complained to them. I think there was uproar from many sane people towards many sources of this abhorrent 'information'. Thankfully I've not seen similar for a while.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

Sadly, there was quite the drive a few years ago by many vets and even welfare charities to push owners to think it was ok for horses to be kept in conditions where they would shiver, promoting it as good for weight loss.

In particular, I was shocked to read a FB post doing the rounds during that time by World Horse Welfare that included encouragement to think that a shivering horse was fine, and even good. I wrote and complained to them. I think there was uproar from many sane people towards many sources of this abhorrent 'information'. Thankfully I've not seen similar for a while.

Yes that was very much the vogue for awhile there. Mostly brought on by the other end of the scale, over rugging our horses which is equally damaging. I knew someone with an overweight cob that had free range good grazing and very little work. She asked her vets advice how to shift weight. Bear in mind this was mid winter, vet strongly recommended that she clip the horse out fully and leave out unrugged 24/7. I will never know how it ended up as we moved home then, but not either her or the vet thought perhaps restricted grazing a good increase in workload might help.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Hopefully the horse is ok this morning. As I read it they are in a pen rather than a stable, so no roof at the moment, and on pea shingle so no grazing. You don't mention hay OP but presume they have that rather than just soaked nuts ?

 

[Exasperated]

Yes that was very much the vogue for awhile there. Mostly brought on by the other end of the scale, over rugging our horses which is equally damaging. I knew someone with an overweight cob that had free range good grazing and very little work. She asked her vets advice how to shift weight. Bear in mind this was mid winter, vet strongly recommended that she clip the horse out fully and leave out unrugged 24/7. I will never know how it ended up as we moved home then, but not either her or the vet thought perhaps restricted grazing a good increase in workload might help.

Yep, and not just vets and charities recommending this approach, also Equine Management courses, including up to post-grad.
Further to: re the ‘reasons’ why vets and owners are so much more reluctant to address inappropriate diet and inadequate exercise, cf that doctoral thesis by Furtado.
Serious cultural shifts in owners’ attitudes towards horses! Social context of health-damaging behaviours is certainly not just restricted to human health, and can also see these evidenced in various threads and contributors to HHO, despite the damaging consequences for horses.

 

[Exasperated]

Hopefully the horse is ok this morning. As I read it they are in a pen rather than a stable, so no roof at the moment, and on pea shingle so no grazing. You don't mention hay OP but presume they have that rather than just soaked nuts ?

Hopefully fully recovered by now, because this weekend’s weather isn’t promising, do get your rugs on before things start again!
(If in a pen without some solid or tall sides, even with a roof there would still be wind chill on any soaked horse that can’t have a good race round to warm up.)

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

Hopefully fully recovered by now, because this weekend’s weather isn’t promising, do get your rugs on before things start again!
(If in a pen without some solid or tall sides, even with a roof there would still be wind chill on any soaked horse that can’t have a good race round to warm up.)

Fine in theory about having a larger area to race around to help keep warm. But in my experience the minute they do start to feel very cold, wet or uncomfortable the last thing they do is run around to warm up. More often than not they would tend to just huddle up in a miserable heap with their bums to the prevailing wind hoping someone will notice and shove a rug on them, bring them in or at the very least put a huge stack of hay out to warm up their engines. Mind you even the toasty warm and dry ones try to look pathetic enough to warrant an extra hay supply in the depths of winter. My donkeys are trying it on already.

 

[tristars]

Sadly, there was quite the drive a few years ago by many vets and even welfare charities to push owners to think it was ok for horses to be kept in conditions where they would shiver, promoting it as good for weight loss.

In particular, I was shocked to read a FB post doing the rounds during that time by World Horse Welfare that included encouragement to think that a shivering horse was fine, and even good. I wrote and complained to them. I think there was uproar from many sane people towards many sources of this abhorrent 'information'. Thankfully I've not seen similar for a while.

Are they mad

Personally I can't stand being cold it brings on allsorts, and apply the same animals, I often check several times a day, am obsessed by the weather forecast and have rugs of every denomination at the ready, but must say the animals will ask to have rugs taken off if needed

But I do think if you are actually shivering that is the body saying, I am too cold.

 

[cornbrodolly]

Whatever happened to thatching a horse when cold and shivering? Obvs I m very old school , but a string sweat rug thatched with straw warmed up any tired and sweaty post hunting horses and ponies. It was an everyday thing , and soon had them toasty.

 

[Mango_goose]

Shivering thru cold: run him up and down the road in trot, get the circulation going as best you can, then put something like a thermatex on to warm /dry him out, or a breathable 100 g rug.
If he gets soaked, he’d be better turned into a decent sized field to run round and warm up, rather than confined to a stable.
Shivering his skin is a method by which the horse is trying to warm himself up, bit like you rubbing cold arms or legs, but clearly shows he is unhappy and needs to improve the situation.
I don’t think people appreciate how cold standing about in a stable is, particularly barn type boxes with open grilles and cross draughts across their backs. Horses are more likely to need a light stable rug overnight, than be rugged up in the field where they can properly move. Try doing the odd 3am emergency - you will definitely need your top coat!

Unfortunately due to a sycamore tree he cannot be out for more than 6 hrs a day (this is very short term!) so he had to come in. It’s a large pen and when turned out he usually stays in a same spot for hours on end anyway. Thankfully he warmed quickly and by the morning seemed much happier. I always bathed him in the early evening as it was meant to stay warm and dry!

 

[Mango_goose]

Whatever happened to thatching a horse when cold and shivering? Obvs I m very old school , but a string sweat rug thatched with straw warmed up any tired and sweaty post hunting horses and ponies. It was an everyday thing , and soon had them toasty.

I would have thatched him but he’s got asthma so we don’t feed hay much, mostly grazing! So no hay/ straw to hand. I used to love thatching him!