Horse still bucking WWYD?

cptrayes said:
That sounds like medication wearing off to me. But it could also just have been a very dominant rider who could temporarily bully the horse into submission and it took the horse a couple of days to work it out.

Did the weather change? My kissing spines horse was very different in cold weather. Maybe the trainer heated him up with infra red before he rode?
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It was another hot day, the weather here has been pretty consistent, as in too blooming hot!

The trainer always used a massage pad for up to an hr before riding horse, apparently they did this with all of the horses under their care. The day after horse had bucked owner off, it had a tight back but it has since softened back up again.
 
ester said:
If the bone scan vets will not take on the case further I would transfer to an alternative practice, and get them to request all of the previous notes and reports and investigate from there. This happens with small animals all the time! and doesn't usually effect the insurance situation. You are allowed to disagree with what the vet says and go elsewhere. I wouldn't try and convince the current vet they are wrong/bute trial is wrong as they don't always like being told you disagree and I wouldn't trust them to work up the back issue properly and risk proving themselves wrong.
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Great, thanks for the info!

Owner waiting on vets to get back re: total costs so far, then making a decision re: spinal x-rays.

This is probably my paranoia talking but I'm not sure I entirely trust the situation here. At the 1st vet visit, initial vet seemed to defend the trainer (as in they felt trainer would know if horse not right, probably as vet previously approved/recommended the trainer to the owner!) BEFORE they actually examined the horse. Which on that occasion was, well not lame per say, but certainly not normal, prompting the whole do a bone scan but only investigate the RH inconclusively, ignore the back part and chuck some bute at it. I just can't get my tiny brain around it unless I'm right to be a bit suspicious....
 
Illusion100 said:
It was another hot day, the weather here has been pretty consistent, as in too blooming hot!

The trainer always used a massage pad for up to an hr before riding horse, apparently they did this with all of the horses under their care. The day after horse had bucked owner off, it had a tight back but it has since softened back up again.
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Well there's your answer then. In the early days, my horse responded very positively to heat and many respond very well to massage pads. Couple that with a very strong rider, and the horse decided not to buck. Remove the massage, provide a less authoritative rider, and the horse bucks.

I think I'm going to eat my hat if this horse does not have kissing spines on x ray!
 
cptrayes said:
Well there's your answer then. In the early days, my horse responded very positively to heat and many respond very well to massage pads. Couple that with a very strong rider, and the horse decided not to buck. Remove the massage, provide a less authoritative rider, and the horse bucks.

I think I'm going to eat my hat if this horse does not have kissing spines on x ray!
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I hope it's not a really big hat you have?!

Since been informed they didn't scan the entire spine either, apparently scanning only up to just behind the withers or thereabouts. Not very helpful considering they charged £1400 for it for 1/2 to 2/3rds of the spine. Seems expensive to me but anyway.

How is your horse coping?
 
SO- the story so far-please correct if Im wrong- Buyer buys horse last Sept, full clean vetting. Gets it home and it treads on her foot so its turned out until March (6 months later). During this period the dealers move away, horses and everything. Buyer gets on and is bucked off, so she sends it to a trainer for 4 weeks (until April). Trainer says horse is quiet, rider tries to ride horse and is bucked off and it misbehaves with another, better rider from the yard. Trainer washes her hands of it, saying theres a rider at the yard able to ride it.
Then another veterinary investigation with scintography proves there MAY be a problem, but its inconclusive. Now they want to but it to see how it behaves when ridden....
I think its just grasping at straws, I don't think it will suddenly turn into the perfect ride on bute. And what if it does? The owner still wont/cant ride it, so theres not much point. I think it should be sold (telling the complete truth), maybe someone will get its back x-rayed and operated on if necessary, be retired as a paddock ornament, or pts.
 
stormox said:
SO- the story so far-please correct if Im wrong- Buyer buys horse last Sept, full clean vetting. Gets it home and it treads on her foot so its turned out until March (6 months later). During this period the dealers move away, horses and everything. Buyer gets on and is bucked off, so she sends it to a trainer for 4 weeks (until April). Trainer says horse is quiet, rider tries to ride horse and is bucked off and it misbehaves with another, better rider from the yard. Trainer washes her hands of it, saying theres a rider at the yard able to ride it.
Then another veterinary investigation with scintography proves there MAY be a problem, but its inconclusive. Now they want to but it to see how it behaves when ridden....
I think its just grasping at straws, I don't think it will suddenly turn into the perfect ride on bute. And what if it does? The owner still wont/cant ride it, so theres not much point. I think it should be sold (telling the complete truth), maybe someone will get its back x-rayed and operated on if necessary, be retired as a paddock ornament, or pts.
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Yep, apart from I think it was May/June horse went to trainers as it's not long back and the horse threw 4 diff riders before going to trainers.
 
Firstly, do not get on this horse. Not only is he almost certainly in pain, you being injured does no one any good at all. Stop "feeling bad for the owner" - she no longer rides the horse!

Then push for further scans/x rays. Nothing will change unless you get to the bottom of what is going on in that poor horse's back. Tension while mounting is classic "I'm worried this will hurt".

Even if you cure his pain problems, he will probably still be prone to buck for a while afterwards as he will remember the pain and he now knows how to get out of anything he doesn't want to do. The owner needs to be prepared that this horse may never be "fixed".
 
Poor horse .
I don't know what the money situation is and I don't insure my horses so I am used to pleasing myself in this area .
If I where in this situation I would get the horse off for a 'lack of performance ' work up from a another carefully chosen vet .
I would get a ACPAT trained physio I trusted to go right over the horse again with a fresh pair of eyes .
A full set of back X-rays would seem an essential next step.
I have lost count of how many horses I have known who bucked off weaker riders ( including one of our own ) but worked for a strong determined rider and turned out in the end to carrying a serious problem .
Horrible all round ,OP don't get hurt it's just not worth it .
Neck issues can cause this sort of behaviour as well.
 
Apercrumbie said:
Firstly, do not get on this horse. Not only is he almost certainly in pain, you being injured does no one any good at all. Stop "feeling bad for the owner" - she no longer rides the horse!

Then push for further scans/x rays. Nothing will change unless you get to the bottom of what is going on in that poor horse's back. Tension while mounting is classic "I'm worried this will hurt".

Even if you cure his pain problems, he will probably still be prone to buck for a while afterwards as he will remember the pain and he now knows how to get out of anything he doesn't want to do. The owner needs to be prepared that this horse may never be "fixed".
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Really appreciate what you're saying. The owner of the horse has really helped me out previously when I got a triple whammy of having a beloved horse PTS, then # pelvis, then Shingles (those were a fun few months!). It's hard not to try and help when they could use it.

It may sound odd but I think if this horse wasn't in pain it would stop bucking, horse is a really nice person and very genuine. Really enjoys getting things right.
 
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Goldenstar said:
Poor horse .
I don't know what the money situation is and I don't insure my horses so I am used to pleasing myself in this area .
If I where in this situation I would get the horse off for a 'lack of performance ' work up from a another carefully chosen vet .
I would get a ACPAT trained physio I trusted to go right over the horse again with a fresh pair of eyes .
A full set of back X-rays would seem an essential next step.
I have lost count of how many horses I have known who bucked off weaker riders ( including one of our own ) but worked for a strong determined rider and turned out in the end to carrying a serious problem .
Horrible all round ,OP don't get hurt it's just not worth it .
Neck issues can cause this sort of behaviour as well.
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I think spinal x-rays are the next port of call. Coincidently, one of the vet practices involved are the ones that severely mentally traumatised my young horse. I did mention this to owner before they took the horse to that practice.

Personally I believe the horse is abnormal on the right rein. Not being rude, or was deliberately ignoring me, just did not want to flex to the right from any aspect of horses body. Left hand side was normal response for a horse of that age and training, right hand side was like a poker.
 
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Just a different thought- total unresponsiveness on one side.. Something neurological maybe? Or almost stroke-like symptoms?

Could the bucking be due to lack of balance then?
 
Illusion100 said:
Really appreciate what you're saying. The owner of the horse has really helped me out previously when I got a triple whammy of having a beloved horse PTS, then # pelvis, then Shingles (those were a fun few months!). It's hard not to try and help when they could use it.
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Sorry but if that person is even vaguely a friend they will not ask or expect you to get on that horse! You said he threw off four differents riders before he even went for training and has completely reverted since. The horse means business and the owner is being unbelievably irresponsible and selfish by letting other people ride him before his physical issues have been sorted.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Just a different thought- total unresponsiveness on one side.. Something neurological maybe? Or almost stroke-like symptoms?

Could the bucking be due to lack of balance then?
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Maybe I didn't explain that well, sorry!

I could have forced the horse to flex to the right, horse would have responded with enough pressure. However imo it is abnormal for a horse to resist both hand and leg to a significant extent on one side only considering it had just been pro schooled for 4 weeks.

From what the trainer and physio said (from watching trainer riding horse), horse worked very well in walk and trot, slightly unbalanced in canter.

Horse will carrot flex to both sides (better to left) and put hindquarters underneath well when asked to turn tight circle on the ground, horse will also 'leg yield' well enough (for a first try!) on the ground also. Problem seems to be ridden work. Other than that the horse is a pleasure really.

I just hope the problem is found.
 
Apercrumbie said:
Sorry but if that person is even vaguely a friend they will not ask or expect you to get on that horse! You said he threw off four differents riders before he even went for training and has completely reverted since. The horse means business and the owner is being unbelievably irresponsible and selfish by letting other people ride him before his physical issues have been sorted.
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The owner did not ask or even hint, I offered. Owner very unhappy about it but I forced the issue, so if anyone is to blame it's myself!

I did ride the horse once after owner bucked off. At that point we thought horse was just being naughty given what we had been told, i.e no issue with trainer. It was only after riding the horse (before bone scan) that this severe unhappiness to flex to the right was picked up on, and so the horse went down the vet route and now a ridden bute trial recommended, rightly or wrongly.

However, in light of the fact several HHO's (is that the right term?) have come forward identifying similar experiences that involved KS or #'s, bute is very likely to be useless and spinal x-rays are strongly recommended, the previous plan of going with a ridden bute trial is being strongly re-evaluated as we now feel that riding the horse is extremely unfair if it is in pain and dangerous. The vets may have misdiagnosed the issue and further investigations need done.
 
Poor owner, and how lucky (for you both) to have such supportive friends. I am not experienced in this field, but as an impartial observer I think, given the amount of money that has been spent on the horse already the extra expense of x-rays is negligible. I would have them done (hopefully they would be covered by insurance), then you both would have a clearer idea of what you are faced with and a decision can be made - treatment/surgery, PTS, re-homing as a companion or if nothing found perhaps selling with full disclosure to an experienced person. I am dearly hoping for a happy ending.
 
Magicmillbrook said:
Poor owner, and how lucky (for you both) to have such supportive friends. I am not experienced in this field, but as an impartial observer I think, given the amount of money that has been spent on the horse already the extra expense of x-rays is negligible. I would have them done (hopefully they would be covered by insurance), then you both would have a clearer idea of what you are faced with and a decision can be made - treatment/surgery, PTS, re-homing as a companion or if nothing found perhaps selling with full disclosure to an experienced person. I am dearly hoping for a happy ending.
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Thank you. Owner is very distressed about the whole situation (rightly so) and will really appreciate the support. I would also be delighted if my final update was indeed the happy ending I think the owner and horse deserve.
 
Illusion100 said:
The owner did not ask or even hint, I offered. Owner very unhappy about it but I forced the issue, so if anyone is to blame it's myself!

I did ride the horse once after owner bucked off. At that point we thought horse was just being naughty given what we had been told, i.e no issue with trainer. It was only after riding the horse (before bone scan) that this severe unhappiness to flex to the right was picked up on, and so the horse went down the vet route and now a ridden bute trial recommended, rightly or wrongly.

However, in light of the fact several HHO's (is that the right term?) have come forward identifying similar experiences that involved KS or #'s, bute is very likely to be useless and spinal x-rays are strongly recommended, the previous plan of going with a ridden bute trial is being strongly re-evaluated as we now feel that riding the horse is extremely unfair if it is in pain and dangerous. The vets may have misdiagnosed the issue and further investigations need done.
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I have two KS horses both responded well to danilon .
So I don't think it's a given a pain killer trial won't work .
 
My mare had a bute trial (3 per day) for a fortnight before going for a bone scan. She really improved during the trial and bone scan revealed serious KS, so in my case the NSAIDs did decrease pain.
 
mine was fine with four a day but bucked again on two a day.

Is anyone else puzzled why vets are going straight for very expensive bone scans before doing much less expensive xrays????
 
Think horse on 2 per day. Beginning to think this is not enough!

Anti-inflammatories and painkillers are funny things though with bony change.

What works for 1 issue doesn't always for the same issue in another individual and the amount of bony change seen via diagnostics does not always correlate to pain experienced. (Or so my spinal surgeon told me!)

Springtime, Did your mare throw you off/bucking before trial and stopped with NSAID's or was it 'lack of performance' that prompted the investigation?

Yep, CTP and why ignore the highlighted area in the back the bone scan identified. However they didn't x-ray the RH hock, pastern or fetlock either when horse went in for work-up.
 
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I hope they get to the bottom of everything with this poor horse. You are a great person stepping in to help the owner like that, not many people like you.

My horse has recently been diagnosed with slight impingement of the spine and I knew something was wrong because she was bucking.

Hope you get it sorted.

Jenna
 
Jenna1406 said:
I hope they get to the bottom of everything with this poor horse. You are a great person stepping in to help the owner like that, not many people like you.

My horse has recently been diagnosed with slight impingement of the spine and I knew something was wrong because she was bucking.

Hope you get it sorted.

Jenna
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Thank you.

Sorry to hear about your mare, how is she now? What treatment was advised if you don't mind me asking?
 
cptrayes said:
mine was fine with four a day but bucked again on two a day.

Is anyone else puzzled why vets are going straight for very expensive bone scans before doing much less expensive xrays????
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It seems to be the way they are going, mine was booked for MRI before xrays were done, he had a clear fracture nowhere near the area that was to be MRI'd he only had xrays at my insistence, the vet looked somewhat embarrassed, I was not happy as had been asking for weeks for them but she was pushing for the MRI.

I do not see the point of the bonescan if they do not then xray the areas that show as potential problems, sending the OPs horse home with only half the work done seems puzzling to say the least.
 
Illusion100 said:
Aren't Danilon and Bute NSAID's? (Or am I missing something....yet again!)

Did you do a ridden bute/danilon trial before KS diagnosed? How did they go?[/


Both where older both high mileage horses , both came to me in their teens .
I suspected KS for both for a while both where normally and well muscled for type the WB carrying more muscle than the near TB.
After diagnosis ( by X-ray ) which gave in each case gave a clear picture of what was of what was going on I put gave them danilon ( I never use bute now ) and worked them both showed good results .
I knew then I could control their pain so they had lighter work load complimentary therapies , lots of turn out exercise included lots of targeted lunging and being led from other horses extra Physio and danilon was used to manage times of discomfort in both horses the lighter work load was hunting so not exactly no work but they had fun one went on to be PTS for something else and the others symptons did develop and he was PTS just before his 20th birthday .
So these two are not really the same to ' your ' case.
There is I am sure something wrong with this horse you need to find it .
I really wish you would demand that they X-ray the horses back before you risk your back (and other bits of you ) riding him .
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Was horses vetted and ridden, tested etc before purchase?

Did new owner actually see horse being ridden by trainer?

Have all obvious tack, teeth, back lameness etc been checked?
 
Goldenstar said:
Illusion100 said:
Aren't Danilon and Bute NSAID's? (Or am I missing something....yet again!)

Did you do a ridden bute/danilon trial before KS diagnosed? How did they go?[/


Both where older both high mileage horses , both came to me in their teens .
I suspected KS for both for a while both where normally and well muscled for type the WB carrying more muscle than the near TB.
After diagnosis ( by X-ray ) which gave in each case gave a clear picture of what was of what was going on I put gave them danilon ( I never use bute now ) and worked them both showed good results .
I knew then I could control their pain so they had lighter work load complimentary therapies , lots of turn out exercise included lots of targeted lunging and being led from other horses extra Physio and danilon was used to manage times of discomfort in both horses the lighter work load was hunting so not exactly no work but they had fun one went on to be PTS for something else and the others symptons did develop and he was PTS just before his 20th birthday .
So these two are not really the same to ' your ' case.
There is I am sure something wrong with this horse you need to find it .
I really wish you would demand that they X-ray the horses back before you risk your back (and other bits of you ) riding him .
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Wow, you put a lot of hard work and effort into these horses, they were very fortunate. Kudos!

I can't force the owner to do anything, all I can do is forward all of the advice and experience you guys have given and hope the right decisions are made re: x-rays.

If I decide to get on this horse, it will be a carefully deliberated decision, if I get the lightest indication that the horse is tense or uncomfortable being tacked or when presented to mounting block, or weight placed in stirrup I will not get on. If I don't feel on 'top form' on that day, I won't even bother tacking horse up. I am not saying I will get on the horse but I am that incurably stupid, there is a chance. There is no cure for my stupidity.
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