Horse still bucking WWYD?

Illusion100

Illusion100

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Horse purchased and the moment a rider sat on back, would buck until rider dumped.

Horse sent to Trainer and was sent back recently deemed suitable for Novice riders and without any issues.

Trainer came to give lesson 3 days after horse home and horse, as soon as rider/owner got on, bucked until rider was dumped on ground for no apparent reason. (Horse was ridden day after coming home by owner and did not buck)

A more experienced rider got on horse, moment asked to walk on horse spun 180 and legged it up arena.

Trainer said can't believe horse bucked first rider off, but they have the other rider to ride horse for them, left yard and cashed the cheques paid by client.

Horse owner has fractured vertebrae and very distressed.

Advice please!
 
Hard one but I am dealing with a horse ATM who broncs if you put him in a schooling environment with a person on the ground .
If you saw this horse until it has a 'turn ' you would not believe it it's bizarre .
I hope the owner is going be ok I fractured vertebrate twice I recovered well .
 
It may be behavioural and with a stronger more experienced rider it just gives up and is well behaved, hence being good while at the trainers yard, it could also be that it worked far harder each day and couldn't put up much of an effort, BUT it is far more likely that underlying is a physical problem that has yet to be found or resolved.

A vet is the first route now, the owner will presumably want to get the horse sorted out and sold on if that is possible, I take it they tried to find out more from the previous owner and failed on that route before sending it away.
 
Horse mis-sold by dealers. Had back issue and was much greener than told. Dealers went underground when new owner tried to get back in touch. Horse received vet checks, thermo-imaging and physio until back loose and supple before going to Trainer. Physio checked horse twice at Trainers yard and reported no issue.

The horse appeared very laid back and chilled when handled, tacked up etc but was clearly anxious when at mounting block and rider getting on. It started bucking before rider could get foot in outside stirrup. Exactly the same problem it was sent to Trainer for.

When more experienced rider got on, it was anxious about having that rider on back too, pulled a fast one and it backfired on horse in that the rider had sharper reactions and controlled the situation.

Find it surprising that the Trainers attitude was, oh, so that's what horse does, horse did that with a grin on his face, anyway they can ride him for you, see ya, p.s thanks for the chunk of cash I'm off to bank.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Did the trainer use the owner's saddle?

Is the owner a similar weight as the trainer?
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Horse was sent to Trainer with own saddle that was used throughout and checked by saddle fitter and physio shortly before being sent away, same saddle used that day during lesson. Trainer possibly a stone heavier than rider/owner thrown.

Edited to say, Trainer smaller in height and more muscular than owner/rider, who is taller but slim build. I am useless at guessing weights but second rider quite small and very slim.
 
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Illusion100 said:
Horse mis-sold by dealers. Had back issue and was much greener than told. Dealers went underground when new owner tried to get back in touch. Horse received vet checks, thermo-imaging and physio until back loose and supple before going to Trainer. Physio checked horse twice at Trainers yard and reported no issue.

The horse appeared very laid back and chilled when handled, tacked up etc but was clearly anxious when at mounting block and rider getting on. It started bucking before rider could get foot in outside stirrup. Exactly the same problem it was sent to Trainer for.

When more experienced rider got on, it was anxious about having that rider on back too, pulled a fast one and it backfired on horse in that the rider had sharper reactions and controlled the situation.

Find it surprising that the Trainers attitude was, oh, so that's what horse does, horse did that with a grin on his face, anyway they can ride him for you, see ya, p.s thanks for the chunk of cash I'm off to bank.
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How old is the horse???

It may be that a) he is remebering pain from before vet checks. You mention he gets anxious at the mounting block so this could be an indication of remembering past pain. When my pony started to get funny about the mounting block it turned out to be his back and for a good 2 months or so after he was still a bit off as a result of the prior pain.
b) he could have been backed incredibly badly. So you could try going back to basics and starting from scratch, though I suspect this would only be effective if he is faaaairly young.
c) get a bloody good jockey who is unlikely to fall off. When I worked at a yard the jockey there was fearless and literally didnt fall off anything no matter what it did. Once a horse realised he wasnt going to come off it soon stopped its antics.
 
Trainer may have not really done the job properly, the attitude implies that is likely, he has probably got the horse to the stage he can ride it, carefully mounting, lots of hard work etc but not taken the care to ensure it will be suitable on it's return to a less able rider.
It may not be a totally lost cause, if it is just the getting on that is the issue, it is a matter of finding the right person to take it on, get it genuinely confident with mounting in different situations with different people , ridden away properly, it will take time and more money but as the last rider did manage to stay on and in control it should be possible, care needs to be taken where is goes from here if it is to have a useful future.
 
BethanT said:
How old is the horse???

It may be that a) he is remebering pain from before vet checks. You mention he gets anxious at the mounting block so this could be an indication of remembering past pain. When my pony started to get funny about the mounting block it turned out to be his back and for a good 2 months or so after he was still a bit off as a result of the prior pain.
b) he could have been backed incredibly badly. So you could try going back to basics and starting from scratch, though I suspect this would only be effective if he is faaaairly young.
c) get a bloody good jockey who is unlikely to fall off. When I worked at a yard the jockey there was fearless and literally didnt fall off anything no matter what it did. Once a horse realised he wasnt going to come off it soon stopped its antics.
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A very green 6 yr old. Horse had lots ground work done before going to Trainer. Completely relaxed at being tacked up, travelled to and standing at mounting block and rider leaning over back. Horse is now anxious about mounting block in general and having rider on after coming back from Trainer.

Horse sent to Trainer to be re-backed and came home with same problems.

Owner may have problem finding a fearless jockey with a sticky bum willing to train the horse for nothing or minimal money. Small fortune spent on Trainer.
 
be positive said:
Trainer may have not really done the job properly, the attitude implies that is likely, he has probably got the horse to the stage he can ride it, carefully mounting, lots of hard work etc but not taken the care to ensure it will be suitable on it's return to a less able rider.
It may not be a totally lost cause, if it is just the getting on that is the issue, it is a matter of finding the right person to take it on, get it genuinely confident with mounting in different situations with different people , ridden away properly, it will take time and more money but as the last rider did manage to stay on and in control it should be possible, care needs to be taken where is goes from here if it is to have a useful future.
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Totally agree with you.

However, I feel the Trainer is at fault and has completely dismissed any responsibility for the horse doing exactly the same thing it was sent to them to 'fix'. They took a significant amount of money and basically wiped their hands when they witnessed first hand the bucking issue.

It's not my horse and not my problem but if I was the owner, I'd be pretty furious with Trainer?

Does owner have any right to say 'Oi?!', money back/sort out issue that you didn't etc?
 
Sounds like the owner really doesn't click with this horse.

I rode a fab wee horse, 100% in ever way. I rode him for prospective buyer, no issues, she got on and he acted like he had been electrocutred! She fell off, I got back on, he was absolutely fine.

Sometime we just dont click with some horses.

As for the trainer, he/she can try all she might to have the horse supposidly ready for a novice, but if the owner and horse just are polar opposites, then its really the trainers job to say " you just dont click"

As for money back, that depends on the contract. If it was x week's schooling livery (which it usually is) then they did their job, for them, and for all intents and purposes, for others they have seen ride, the horse is fine.

If the contract stated until the horse is suitable for a novice to ride (which would be bonkers) then yes, they need to keep up their side of the deal.

Maybe its time the owner thought about finding more suitable mount, and the trainer may be able to help with the sale?
 
alainax said:
Sounds like the owner really doesn't click with this horse.

I rode a fab wee horse, 100% in ever way. I rode him for prospective buyer, no issues, she got on and he acted like he had been electrocutred! She fell off, I got back on, he was absolutely fine.

Sometime we just dont click with some horses.

As for the trainer, he/she can try all she might to have the horse supposidly ready for a novice, but if the owner and horse just are polar opposites, then its really the trainers job to say " you just dont click"

As for money back, that depends on the contract. If it was x week's schooling livery (which it usually is) then they did their job, for them, and for all intents and purposes, for others they have seen ride, the horse is fine.

If the contract stated until the horse is suitable for a novice to ride (which would be bonkers) then yes, they need to keep up their side of the deal.

Maybe its time the owner thought about finding more suitable mount, and the trainer may be able to help with the sale?
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Owner asked several times if horse suitable for them, Trainer said yes each time. Owner noted when having lessons at Trainers yard that horse was figeting/anxious at mounting block/rider getting on/walking off sideways when mounting and although owner concerned, Trainer said nothing to worry about, with knowledge owner novice rider.

No contract was signed as none was offered by Trainer.

As far as I know, Trainer won't assist with sale as horse isn't their 'stamp'.
 
Might be the horse knows if they buck, owner falls off.
Sounds as if trainer has given him an extra fear of being mounted which won't help either.

Or he's just at that page in the book if he's a very green 6yo horse.
Some of the more stubborn ones go through a stage of 'don't want to, so I won't' - had a similar thing with a young horse I'd been riding for a while. He was good as gold for a few months then decided he wanted to protest for a few months, and the cycle continued. He was also a very laid back yet green horse, the things that spooked my 12yo he didn't even seem to notice.

Is it possible to get someone who is just good at sticking to ride? Doesn't necessarily have to be someone 'pro' just someone with Andrew Nicholson-type stickability.
 
sasquatch said:
Might be the horse knows if they buck, owner falls off.
Sounds as if trainer has given him an extra fear of being mounted which won't help either.

Or he's just at that page in the book if he's a very green 6yo horse.
Some of the more stubborn ones go through a stage of 'don't want to, so I won't' - had a similar thing with a young horse I'd been riding for a while. He was good as gold for a few months then decided he wanted to protest for a few months, and the cycle continued. He was also a very laid back yet green horse, the things that spooked my 12yo he didn't even seem to notice.

Is it possible to get someone who is just good at sticking to ride? Doesn't necessarily have to be someone 'pro' just someone with Andrew Nicholson-type stickability.
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Defo not Andrew stickability rider (who is? and how does he do that???!!!) but the second rider (that got on bucky horse)that spun and pelted off as soon as their bum reached the saddle might be an option. However I'm not sure if they would ride the horse foc and owner already spent over 4 figures on vet/diagnostics/physio/saddler/trainer (most on *cough* trainer)

The horse was anxious as soon as it went to mounting block, backing up, turning hind end away and Trainer ignored/didn't read signs and 'accident' happened.

The horse was certainly anxious and realised it was getting owner/rider off-balance and kept going until it finished the job.

Horse bucked approx. 10-15 times in a row while spinning, when horse realised it had owner suitably off balance it dropped a shoulder. Bucks were small but consistent. Owner has fractured vertebrae, arm damage and eye damage.

Trainer, uninterested and laughing their way to bank. Just feeling very upset, not even my problem but owner is lovely person and feeling very annoyed about what's happened.
 
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Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
 
cptrayes said:
Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
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Sorry to be a harbinger of doom, but I totally agree with this. You can only see KS with an X-ray, and SI issues with a scan. Thermal imaging might show heat spots but it's not 100% positive all the time. I suggest you see what's left on the insurance and send for X-rays - even neck ones - and a scan.

HH - with horrible, debilitating and injurious experience of bronking horse with mild KS but also a severely compromised SI joint that only showed up on PM.
 
cptrayes said:
Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
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That is my thinking also, horses will often put up with the pain when ridden forcefully by a really tough person but revert once the less able rider gets on as they feel the weakness and revert, I do think the trainer has done a poor job as it seems the horse was still not "perfect" while at their yard despite saying it was, they should have at least said there was still an issue and suggested further tests.
 
I would also go with pain. The first sign my WB showed (with his previous owner) of pain from navicular was reluctance to stand at the mounting block, especially turning his quarters away. Back xray sounds good plan, not sure what they cost though.
 
Some horses just can't deal with a rider I've know a horse who just wasn't happy under saddle to point of dangerous, so they broke him to drive. Said horse is the happiest hes been and no problems since change of career.
 
cptrayes said:
Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
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Yep, having been trying to log on all morning to ask this......sorry op but it sounds like pain related.
 
It sounds to me the horse wasn't properly broken in the first place-maybe itd only been sat on a couple of times at the previous owners? Or had it been drugged when she tried it? What do you mean 'dealer (previous owner) went to ground?' if theyr a dealer surely they can be traced?? I think the problem lies more with the seller than the trainer.
 
Evening all!

No the horse has not had any spinal x-rays or MRI/CT scan. KS or bony change may be a possibility and was discussed with vet, physio and trainer, this may be an avenue that needs investigating.

Offered a hand today. Walked horse up to mounting block with just a headcollar on and leant over it at a couple of different mounting blocks, then repeated with bridle on, then repeated with bridle and saddle.

With headcollar - really quite relaxed about it all.

With bridle - When reins gathered, signs of anxiety, head up, ears back to monitor what's going on, tense.

With bridle and saddle - same as with bridle but also anxious when foot/weight placed on stirrup, stepping backwards.

In time, horse became much more relaxed. Soft eye, slow blinking, lowered head, ears floppy, relaxed muzzle. Then a big sigh and a yawn, so left it at that.

It appears the horse is anxious about the whole mounting process and maybe hasn't been allowed time to settle and relax with each stage before rider goes the whole hog and gets on.

The horse was ridden by the owner and another novice rider on several occasions at the trainers yard and did note the horse tensed when mounted and immediately started moving before being asked to, also tensed when reins gathered.

Physio examined horse twice while at trainers yard and expressed no back issue noted and horse round and active in walk/trot, bringing hindlegs underneath well, however slightly unbalanced in canter, which they felt was not unexpected.

When horse threw riders before going to trainers yard, it wasn't messing around one little bit, when each rider was forcefully dumped horse tended to run to a corner and stop.

When it dumped owner the other day, after it came back from Trainer, they were small but consistent bucks (done in lovely pirouettes), when rider disposed off, horse went charging round with a proud neck, tail up, showing extended paces and gleefully avoided attempts to be caught with a significant turn of foot and a lot of showing off.
 
I would also say this horse needs a full vet work up, symptoms are screaming pain if he is generally a laid back character.

If however you want to rule out fear of mounting block I would stop trying to force the issue and see if the horse was mountable by a leg up. I had an extremely sensitive mare who was scared of them, but fine to have a leg up onto or even bizarrely the ground eventually (although this was hardly ever done! But shows that the issue was the block itself)
 
Assuming the teeth are ok, given its history, I would start the horse again from scratch as if it had never been ridden. If it started to buck again I would get back and neck x rays. If they showed nothing, I would get a gamma ray scintigraph. And if that found nothing I would have it put down.

But if I was the current owner, I would ask the trainer who is convinced that the horse is fine to take it and sell it with full disclosure to the buyers. I don't think this is necessarily the right thing for the horse, but she is in a really tough place with this one.
 
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cptrayes said:
Assuming the teeth are ok, given its history, I would start the horse again from scratch as if it had never been ridden. If it started to buck again I would get back and neck x rays. If they showed nothing, I would get a gamma ray scintigraph. And if that found nothing I would have it put down.

But if I was the current owner, I would ask the trainer who is convinced that the horse is fine to take it and sell it with full disclosure to the buyers. I don't think this is necessarily the right thing for the horse, but she is in a really tough place with this one.
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Trainer has refused to do this on the principle of the horse is not their 'stamp'.

Really feel for the owner. Spent a small fortune on this horse and back at square 0. Decided to stick my neck out and re:re: back horse for them foc on the basis that they fully cover me insurance wise and do my labour jobs in the time I'd lose working with their horse.
 
Illusion100 said:
Trainer has refused to do this on the principle of the horse is not their 'stamp'.

Really feel for the owner. Spent a small fortune on this horse and back at square 0. Decided to stick my neck out and re:re: back horse for them foc on the basis that they fully cover me insurance wise and do my labour jobs in the time I'd lose working with their horse.
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The owner is lucky they have you. The dealer sounds like he knows it will rebound on his reputation if he sells it.
 
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