Horse still bucking WWYD?

Where abouts in the country are you? If he was mine I would be taking him straight to Bushys at Breadstone and insisting they took a look at the x rays.

Everything about this horse is screaming KS to me, what you are saying is very similar to one on our yard.

Poor poor horse that none of the vets are listening. IME a horse in pain is far more dangerous than a naughty horse as they will do anything to get away from what is hurting, please please don't get on it, it is not worth the risk.

Have the vets done a valium trial or anything like that?
 
Darremi said:
Has the horse been scoped for gastrointestinal ulcers? They can cause significant behavioural changes such as bucking, rearing and anxiety related behaviours that may masquerade as a musculo-skeletal issue...
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I have mentioned that possibility to Owner, suggested they put this to Vet and have horse scoped. So far no Vet has indicated ulcers as a possible factor. Will bring subject of ulcers up again to owner again asap.
 
Tbh I'm hoping the horse breaks a leg in the field and gets PTS. At least then the poor thing won't be suffering any more. The vets in this situation have been rubbish but the owner is as bad, they're not being determined enough with insisting on the problem being found. Who do they think is going to buy this horse with a bad back, at any price however cheap? Someone looking for a project maybe, hoping to fix it quick and sell on for a profit, who may not be so keen on PTS themselves if the problem can't be quickly or easily fixed, perhaps preferring to try to get their money back by selling on again. Or worse, someone promising a forever home who drugs the horse up then sells it on to the first unsuspecting person who wants it. Poor poor horse.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Tbh I'm hoping the horse breaks a leg in the field and gets PTS. At least then the poor thing won't be suffering any more. The vets in this situation have been rubbish but the owner is as bad, they're not being determined enough with insisting on the problem being found. Who do they think is going to buy this horse with a bad back, at any price however cheap? Someone looking for a project maybe, hoping to fix it quick and sell on for a profit, who may not be so keen on PTS themselves if the problem can't be quickly or easily fixed, perhaps preferring to try to get their money back by selling on again. Or worse, someone promising a forever home who drugs the horse up then sells it on to the first unsuspecting person who wants it. Poor poor horse.
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While I agree on most of your post to say the owner is just as bad is rather unfair, the OP says the owner is inexperienced and that will mean she has limited knowledge in dealing with not just a difficult horse but also with vets who can be obstructive, uncommunicative, they frequently make decisions based on not just clinical diagnostics but on behavioural issues which they judge are part of the whole problem, with little evidence to back up that opinion other than no obvious injury.
I know how some vets treat their clients they tend to add an air of mystery to their powers, not all are like this, it can be extremely hard to push a vet when they have made up their minds that part of the issue is the owner, naughty horse, novice owner getting bucked off, no obvious source of pain, easy answer behavioural problem, this is I think where they started and are reluctantly moving on due to the owner being fairly persistent but it all takes time.
 
We had a horse that reared when she was to be separated from the rest or when she didnt want to go for a hack. A lot of people said to hit her on the top of the head with my whip but couldnt do it.
 
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Well, after a lengthy and emotional phonecall from owner tonight, having the horse PTS may be on the cards.

This journey is not over yet though. There may still be hope yet. Owner is upset/angry/emotional over this ordeal, I will be seeing them tomorrow at yard for a good chat. It's just awful as I have really grown fond of this horse.
 
IrishEmma said:
We had a horse that reared when she was to be separated from the rest or when she didnt want to go for a hack. A lot of people said to hit her on the top of the head with my whip but couldnt do it.
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When I was 13 my 3 yr old pony reared upright when I took him for a hack. Went back to yard very upset. YO/trainer gave me a whip and told me to go back out hacking, if he reared again, whip him across the ears when he went up. I did it and he never reared again.
 
be positive said:
While I agree on most of your post to say the owner is just as bad is rather unfair, the OP says the owner is inexperienced and that will mean she has limited knowledge in dealing with not just a difficult horse but also with vets who can be obstructive, uncommunicative, they frequently make decisions based on not just clinical diagnostics but on behavioural issues which they judge are part of the whole problem, with little evidence to back up that opinion other than no obvious injury.
I know how some vets treat their clients they tend to add an air of mystery to their powers, not all are like this, it can be extremely hard to push a vet when they have made up their minds that part of the issue is the owner, naughty horse, novice owner getting bucked off, no obvious source of pain, easy answer behavioural problem, this is I think where they started and are reluctantly moving on due to the owner being fairly persistent but it all takes time.
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I've had this as a novice owner. For whole year I tried to convince a vet that my horse was ill, but he was convinced I was imagining it as it looked well. Yes, it looked well because I was feeding it twice what it should have needed! He did a few things at my insistence, but not enough. Finally I was recommended another vet, who took blood tests, and the horse was put down for almost total kidney failure the next day, having been in pain for a year.

These owners sound as if they are a bit nervous and timid, and the vets they are meeting are assuming that it is them causing the issues. They are simply not listening to the fact that the horse has been started three times over by other people and does not want to be ridden.

Illusion please tell them that there are plenty of us on this forum who would support a decision to put this poor horse down and not pass it on to a likely future of more pain.
 
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cptrayes said:
I've had this as a novice owner. For whole year I tried to convince a vet that my horse was ill, but he was convinced I was imagining it as it looked well. Yes, it looked well because I was feeding it twice what it should have needed! He did a few things at my insistence, but not enough. Finally I was recommended another vet, who took blood tests, and the horse was put down for almost total kidney failure the next day, having been in pain for a year.

These owners sound as if they are a bit nervous and timid, and the vets they are meeting are assuming that it is them causing the issues. They are simply not listening to the fact that the horse has been started three times over by other people and does not want to be ridden.

Illusion please tell them that there are plenty of us on this forum who would support a decision to put this poor horse down and not pass it on to a likely future of more pain.
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Sorry to hear about your horse, very sad.
 
Illusion100 said:
Sorry to hear about your horse, very sad.
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It was a long time ago, and it helped that the vet apologised to me for not listening to me.

I wouldn't criticize sale to the right owner who definitely will not pass the horse on again if it can't be resolved. I wish the owners luck.
 
Very sad story ,
Poor poor horse I hope he has a soft landing whatever happens to him , and poor owner I hope it does not put her off and she's luckier with the next horse .
If the horse is passed on I hope it's to someone kind as well as brave .
I salute you Op for sticking with this when your own horse is far from easy as well .
There's not always an answer I have had to PTS sleep with out the answer it's a horrible place to be .
I would not pass this horse on but then I have been at this more than forty years and you develop your instinct for the ' not right ' rather than the difficult and sharp over time, I won't condemn this owner she tried hard and will have learnt from this expensive and heartbreaking episode .
 
I genuinely feel this horse could have a happy ridden career. Just not with an unconfident rider. I feel horse may have memory of pain/abusive riders etc. Yes, horse may have minor niggling issues but tbf many, many horses do and it does not prevent them from doing their job. IMO, the diagnostics have not shown anything significant. Owner loves this horse and I appreciate the awful situation they are in. Right home is key and they are willing to bend over backwards to do everything they can to get this horse combined with the right new owner.

However CTP, I will mention to Owner running a blood test, regardless that horse is a very good doer, will winter out without issue and is a lovely horse to be around. Bloods may pick up on something.

GS, I don't think Owner is put off but will be very careful about a future purchase. I am nervous as I feel I may be asked for my opinion pre-purchase and would hate myself if things went wrong! Also, on Monday I will be getting results of my bloods back. There is a possibility that I may be suffering from a condition that does not mix with my highly strung/anxious/suspicious youngster!

I would like to say thank you to you all for following this thread and offering your advice and support. Very much appreciated.
 
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Well, the problem has been pin pointed down to anxiety over being mounted. Horse has recently been put into ridden work and with the right approach has not bucked once under saddle. There have been a few tantrums but no bucking.

Horse is going to its first dressage competition on Sunday, so fingers crossed.

Owner still wishes to sell though as he is not suitable for a 'Novice Novice'. Horse is more like a 4/5 yr old under saddle and needs reassurance and guidance. However things are looking positive!

Turks, I just popped on thread to update and saw your comment, thank you! Bloods came back pretty normal which was a surprise but it seems I am definitely on the road to recovery. :)
 
Good progress forward and a chance of a future for the horse .
I hope his show goes well and a suitable home is just around the corner and his owner has better luck next time .
Why the horse is anxious about mounting is really what you need to know .
 
Goldenstar said:
Good progress forward and a chance of a future for the horse .
I hope his show goes well and a suitable home is just around the corner and his owner has better luck next time .
Why the horse is anxious about mounting is really what you need to know .
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Tbh, I think the horse has initially been very poorly started. Very tight rein contact, heavy thud into saddle and immediately booted forward. Very green under saddle but tries very hard.

Thanks, I have expectations dressage will go well although the weather is to be very windy (typical!).

Right home is key for owner, this horse deserves it.

Will update after dressage!
 
Very unlikely this is totally 'in the horse's head'. I have been/am going through this with mine and it is very frustrating. I did not believe he was just being naughty thou but physio couldn't find any issues once we resolved the issues I think i caused by using a poor fitting saddle.
He has been away for re-backing for 5 weeks after a year of not being sat on after it all went wrong. However, his explosions and reactions started again and then he went Lame. Vet referred him and, after various tests, x-rays and ultrasound followed by a full bone scan they found nothing wrong with his limbs and no kissing spines BUT the ligaments between some spinous processes were inflamed and that was also causing the muscles to be tense.
He is now on a rehab programme and will have two more sessions of shockwave therapy (he's had steroid injections and some shockwave), a rescan in 3 mths and in the meantime some work to help build up his strength and encourage him to stretch.
This inflammation would in my opinion make sense as far as his explosions were concerned and I hope we can come out the other end.vets couldn't say if a saddle could have caused it but it certainly didn't help. I am hopeful I can try back him again in the spring. He will be 6 then
 
ladyt25 said:
Very unlikely this is totally 'in the horse's head'. I have been/am going through this with mine and it is very frustrating. I did not believe he was just being naughty thou but physio couldn't find any issues once we resolved the issues I think i caused by using a poor fitting saddle.
He has been away for re-backing for 5 weeks after a year of not being sat on after it all went wrong. However, his explosions and reactions started again and then he went Lame. Vet referred him and, after various tests, x-rays and ultrasound followed by a full bone scan they found nothing wrong with his limbs and no kissing spines BUT the ligaments between some spinous processes were inflamed and that was also causing the muscles to be tense.
He is now on a rehab programme and will have two more sessions of shockwave therapy (he's had steroid injections and some shockwave), a rescan in 3 mths and in the meantime some work to help build up his strength and encourage him to stretch.
This inflammation would in my opinion make sense as far as his explosions were concerned and I hope we can come out the other end.vets couldn't say if a saddle could have caused it but it certainly didn't help. I am hopeful I can try back him again in the spring. He will be 6 then
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What an upsetting journey you've both had, really wish you every success. Please keep us informed how backing goes as I love to hear of a happy ending.
 
He started great as an almost 4 year old but after getting him his own (economy) adjustable saddle it all went wrong. He has a very wide spine and wide across the wither. He 'told' me things weren't right by starting to be girthy and a little nappy but then it finally became too much resulting me in being ditched twice and him developing a fear of the saddle which caused more problems trying to overcome that.
We did but obviously the work has highlighted the underlying issue.
The vets said it's a very new thing they've started to diagnose but for me it explains his behaviour. He didn't buck, it was more a rodeo type bronc and I can only explain it as as if he got an electric shock. Makes sense as the pain would be like a spasm.
Makes me wonder how many horses may have the same?
I think an older horse may put up with it to a degree as they have learned more manners and what not to do with a human on board, but a young one will just react to pain in the only way they know.
 
I'm afraid I agree with ladyt25 that is unlikely that this horse's problems are all in his head, and much more likely that a strong (mentally and/or physically) rider is convincing him that objecting is not an option. I hope I am wrong, and have my fingers crossed that he has many happy years of ridden work ahead of him.
 
I am hopeful with mine as the damage should be fixable - vets say should be absolutely fine - and he's young I will have a nice, happy ridden horse eventually. I have made the mistakes with mine and, going forwards we both have the mental aspects to get through but with time I am sure it will come. OP I think you will have a good chance too of turning that corner but you need to try and find out the cause for the behaviour.
 
Illusion100 said:
Well, the problem has been pin pointed down to anxiety over being mounted. Horse has recently been put into ridden work and with the right approach has not bucked once under saddle. There have been a few tantrums but no bucking.

Horse is going to its first dressage competition on Sunday, so fingers crossed.

Owner still wishes to sell though as he is not suitable for a 'Novice Novice'. Horse is more like a 4/5 yr old under saddle and needs reassurance and guidance. However things are looking positive!

Turks, I just popped on thread to update and saw your comment, thank you! Bloods came back pretty normal which was a surprise but it seems I am definitely on the road to recovery. :)
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Well that's very good news. Let's hope tomorrow brings some more:)
 
I too had a horse with a high wide wither and very wide spine, went off as if electrocuted and bucked like a rodeo bull. did cure it to an extent with an Albion jump saddle witha high wide head and extra wide channel. it was fear but always had to girth up slowly and reback him if he had any time off. Was told by a showjumper that a certain german line are particularly bad for this, but having a senior moment and can't remember which one. He did not have a kissing spine and did not react in his back or muscles at all, it was just deep seated fear of being girthed up, much better if you rode him daily or at least saddled him up. Had several saddles for him til I bought the Albion at a car boot sale, previous ones were fitted by saddlers but even the wide ones just did not accommodate his wither width. Also had to have a 16.5" saddle as the wither went so far back. He was 16.3hh and a middle to heavyweight.
 
old hand said:
I too had a horse with a high wide wither and very wide spine, went off as if electrocuted and bucked like a rodeo bull. did cure it to an extent with an Albion jump saddle witha high wide head and extra wide channel. it was fear but always had to girth up slowly and reback him if he had any time off. Was told by a showjumper that a certain german line are particularly bad for this, but having a senior moment and can't remember which one. He did not have a kissing spine and did not react in his back or muscles at all, it was just deep seated fear of being girthed up, much better if you rode him daily or at least saddled him up. Had several saddles for him til I bought the Albion at a car boot sale, previous ones were fitted by saddlers but even the wide ones just did not accommodate his wither width. Also had to have a 16.5" saddle as the wither went so far back. He was 16.3hh and a middle to heavyweight.
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That's interesting. Mine doesn't have a high wither, his is pretty flat and the problem's been exasperated as saddles seem to slip forwards. I have had one specially made but it is not 100% yet and, when he is able to have a saddle on again I will have to get the saddler to adjust it further or take it back and start the saddle search again!
 
Thanks Annie! :)

Just again for others, I must stress this is not my horse and I cannot force Owners decisions in what they decide to peruse physically/psychologically with their horse. However the horse will now stand quietly at mounting block and be mounted/dismounted with varying amounts of rein contact from both sides, wait quietly until asked to move off, relaxed about girth tightened/loosened both sides and have rider balance with both legs either side. It working rounded and forward under saddle, mostly with ears pricked forward and is not displaying signs of pain.

Personally, I think the horse has taken great leaps in the right direction and each time ridden is improving. :)
 
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