Horse suddenly more strong

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MummyEms

MummyEms

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My horse went out on loan briefly to a show jumper teenager, literally only a few months.
Since coming back to me (permanently) she feels so so much less soft. More argumentative and stiff even verging on strong. Everything about her that made her so lovely to ride feels so different now. I've played about with softer bits and bitless which she used to love... to no avail.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
 
She' likes jumping in a hackamore , hacks in a side pull micklem and dressage in a nathe snaffle with tongue relief which the pro bit fitter suggested years ago.
 
Yes she has changed so much. It's so disheartening as she's my forever horse. Circumstances forced me to loan and now I regret it so much.
How much time off do you think?
 
Yes literally thought the same thing so had the butet saddle fitter, the back man, the dentist... all good. My trainer just called (haven't seen this one since before the horse went away) and said it is so common when they're ridden by someone else very differently they need re schooling completely to re learn the nice way of going that we want. So upsetting.
 
This happened with my sister's gelding. He went out on loan to a colleague for their daughter who got on so well with him that they asked if they could buy him. We went to see him to sort the sale out and my sister had a last ride on him. He was a completely different horse, far more forward going and she struggled to hold him.
 
I had one come back from loan the same. she got back to normal after loads of inhand ground poles, and lots of long and low riding work and pole work to get her to stretch. Loan rider had just been riding the horse very hollow
 
Errin Paddywack said:
This happened with my sister's gelding. He went out on loan to a colleague for their daughter who got on so well with him that they asked if they could buy him. We went to see him to sort the sale out and my sister had a last ride on him. He was a completely different horse, far more forward going and she struggled to hold him.
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That is EXACTLY what I'm finding. Heart breaking ?
 
paddi22 said:
I had one come back from loan the same. she got back to normal after loads of inhand ground poles, and lots of long and low riding work and pole work to get her to stretch. Loan rider had just been riding the horse very hollow
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Yes.. its so hard because on the phone and to talk to them etc they sounded really good.... but her way of going says the complete opposite now??
 
MummyEms said:
Yes literally thought the same thing so had the butet saddle fitter, the back man, the dentist... all good. My trainer just called (haven't seen this one since before the horse went away) and said it is so common when they're ridden by someone else very differently they need re schooling completely to re learn the nice way of going that we want. So upsetting.
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Your in a better position in some ways though as you know the horse and you've got her going nicely previously. You might be surprised how quickly she comes round once ridden like she used to be.
 
Strong horses are nearly always on the forehand, which means a bit (at least!) dropped in the thoracic sling, ie the ribcage drops through the shoulders. I would do some intensive groundwork but I'd also take square on photos from all around so you can map her progress. If you post a side on conformation shot we might even be able to point out some bits that are pertinent.

The teenager likely didn't have great balance, so took a hold and what do horses fo if we take a hold? Brace. And even if they don't lean, that brace through the lower neck means the sternum has to tip downwards.

I would also just say that French saddles aren't always very, ahem, horse shaped. They can work well for some, but I would have a feel around the panels against her, with a little pressure on top of the saddle from one hand; feel along the outer edge from where your knee sits right to the back of the saddle, then the inner edge along the spine via the channel. I would put money on those panels, and therefore the rails, not being parallel with the horse's ribcage. I would consider having a second opinion on the saddle but equally understand you may be ALL over that, that she's always been happy in it and want to continue with this brand and fitter. Just putting another perspective.

One person's understanding of a correct way of going is, sadly, different to the next no matter what a good game they talk.
 
sbloom said:
Strong horses are nearly always on the forehand, which means a bit (at least!) dropped in the thoracic sling, ie the ribcage drops through the shoulders. I would do some intensive groundwork but I'd also take square on photos from all around so you can map her progress. If you post a side on conformation shot we might even be able to point out some bits that are pertinent.

The teenager likely didn't have great balance, so took a hold and what do horses fo if we take a hold? Brace. And even if they don't lean, that brace through the lower neck means the sternum has to tip downwards.

I would also just say that French saddles aren't always very, ahem, horse shaped. They can work well for some, but I would have a feel around the panels against her, with a little pressure on top of the saddle from one hand; feel along the outer edge from where your knee sits right to the back of the saddle, then the inner edge along the spine via the channel. I would put money on those panels, and therefore the rails, not being parallel with the horse's ribcage. I would consider having a second opinion on the saddle but equally understand you may be ALL over that, that she's always been happy in it and want to continue with this brand and fitter. Just putting another perspective.

One person's understanding of a correct way of going is, sadly, different to the next no matter what a good game they talk.
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Thanks so much.
How's best to link pics. I'll try now....
 
Today...
 

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I have some from when she felt dreamy to ride (never perfect obviously as she's a keen thoroughbred but so so much more willing and soft) if you'd like to see those? xx
 
I'd nearly take her away from the jumps and just do flatwork and pole work for a while till you get her back to normal. she looks like she's stressed, hollow and rushing. she looks like she has lost a lot of balance was well. I'd imagine the kid was just motorbiking her at speed around corners, I remember being that age!
 
paddi22 said:
I'd nearly take her away from the jumps and just do flatwork and pole work for a while till you get her back to normal. she looks like she's stressed, hollow and rushing. she looks like she has lost a lot of balance was well. I'd imagine the kid was just motorbiking her at speed around corners, I remember being that age!
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Yes stressed hollow and unbalanced is exactly how she feels. Completely the opposite of last winter just before she left. Thank you so much for replies.
 
Sorry, I meant conformation type photos, to look at how her posture/musculature is.

She's clearly pushing down through her sternum and bracing through her underneck. The martingale sadly gives her something to resist against, making the underneck even stronger, so may be best avoided. Get her soft through the neck from the ground first as maintaining this in movement, and then with a rider, is much more challenging. It's not impossible from the saddle, but it's much harder and takes an incredibly skilled rider in, ideally, a perfect fitting saddle that allows the horse to push up under the stirrup bars (where French saddles tend to be narrow), with a ton of patience and understanding of what's going on underneath them.

It may be worth getting some help on the ground and of course when ridden, is there a trainer near you that would work with this more classical/biomechanical approach?
 
Found out they had very tight draw reins on.
I'll get some sideways photos. Thank you. What ground work would you recommend? We have a dressage trainer and a jumping trainer plus riding club clinics. Sadly we've moved since before she went out on loan so the riding club haven't seen how she was before. I'm prepared to put the work in now though to get her back to where we were.
 
One of mine came back to me running at the jumps so fast it was dangerous. Took a winter of reschooling to turn her back into her former self. Lots of transitions, dropping down a pace the second she started to pull. Then we jumped absolutely tiny - poles on the floor upwards. I walked over the poles until she could do it nicely, then trotted over them, then cantered. After that we progressed to tiny cross poles and repeated the process. Up and up until I was trotting over 2ft without issue. Stuck at trot for a while as we increased the height, keeping canter for the lower jumps (and in canter if she lost her marbles I pulled her out of canter and we walked or trotted over). In the end, she was chilled and happy, cantering nicely round courses again.
 
MummyEms said:
Found out they had very tight draw reins on.
I'll get some sideways photos. Thank you. What ground work would you recommend? We have a dressage trainer and a jumping trainer plus riding club clinics. Sadly we've moved since before she went out on loan so the riding club haven't seen how she was before. I'm prepared to put the work in now though to get her back to where we were.
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If you pm me your email address I have a sheet full of links to good groundwork, but for most situations I love https://www.wildmagicllc.com/master-class, everything is taken right down to the very basics of how a horse's body should be able to move with or without a rider. Simple, but not easy :), it gets to the fundamentals and nothing gets papered over, you'll also get an incredible understanding of biomechanics and posture, and of your own horse's issues.
 
One: stop jumping her for now. Two: Get the saddle fitter out again because that saddle does not look like it fits well. the first photos looks like it raises at the back a good bit, the second lot have a 5 point on indicating to me the saddles all over the place. Use whatever bit you had on her before she went on loan, loose the martingale.

Go back to basics. Re-teach her to be calm. Have suuuuuper boring lessons with her doing lots of walking, chill, walk a bit more, chill. Have a trot, chill. Etc etc etc. Let her relearn what YOU want from her. Perhaps the teen wanted her a little more forward, got her a little too forward so stuck reins on. Re-chill her out.
 
I don't see any conclusive evidence that the saddle doesn't fit from the photos, but stand by my recommendation to consider a more "horse friendly" brand, giving more space for the back to lift. There is a little lift at the back in the first set hut none in the second, and a horse's balance, posture and way of going can affect saddle fit massively. It may require better padding/shimming though with narrow rails sometimes it can make a bad situation worse.
 
sbloom said:
If you pm me your email address I have a sheet full of links to good groundwork, but for most situations I love https://www.wildmagicllc.com/master-class, everything is taken right down to the very basics of how a horse's body should be able to move with or without a rider. Simple, but not easy :), it gets to the fundamentals and nothing gets papered over, you'll also get an incredible understanding of biomechanics and posture, and of your own horse's issues.
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Thanks ever so much . I'll do that.
 
Here are her pics someone kindly asked for... the ridden one is from today. Day 2 of her re schooling to be calm and soft. Its going very well.
 
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