Horse taken for livery debt Whilst on loan x

[xxkiarazz]

Long story but here goes, On tuesday the 4th September I took the lady I was working with ( I'm a support worker ) to feed our horse ( 17.2 warmblood 20 years old ) which had been on loan to a friend for the past 3 1/2 years, but he wasn't in his field I asked a couple of people who said the horse and donkey had been moved while they cut hay, so I went to the other fields my friend has. In the mean time my sister rang our Friend, only to be told the land owner had removed them a couple of months ago and she was too embarrassed to say. Because I was very upset my sister found the land owner/farmer phone number on the Internet and was able to speak to him. He said that the horse was fine and being cared for but was taken for a livery debt by putting an abandonment notice on the gate, no contract or lien was in place for field rent or on horse, he also said a deal was in the making for the horse to be sold, and he had done it all legally but without a passport i might add, but now the horse wasn't the said friend he would get advise. Which is also what we did. ( please note our friend was someone who we spoke to regularly going out to horse show's/sales etc, speaking and asking about our horse even three weeks before being told he looks great and she will bring him to local show if it's on, So we felt we had no concerns with him ) Also when the horse and donkey were removed the jack donkey was going to be put down, this was put on Facebook and my sister helped find a rescue centre that would take him. All the time not knowing who's donkey it was!
After my sister and i spoke we said if the horse had a bond with the person planning on buying him, maybe they would like to keep him on long term loan, as long as we can check him and he retires back to us with a loan agreement. ( our main concerns are the horse ending up tho the auctions and going for meat.) But the farmer rang back saying he had now sold the horse to another part of his business again but we hold the passport so we can't have him back and to take him to court! Because my sister had been in contact with an Equine Solicitor who has said this is a criminal act of theft now he knows it didn't belong to the lady who rented from him, we had a letter drawn up giving the farmer 7 days to return or allow us to collect the horse and get any debt owning from the person he rented the field to for 8 + years through the court system even though he can't prove what she owes. My sister and a independent witness went to speak to the farmer and give him the letter, my sister asked if she could see the horse but the farmer asked her to get of his land! After speaking again to our solicitor we were told as we have the ownership paper work, which is his passport, microchip, import papers, ( as he came from holland ) and a receipt from the person we brought him of in 2007 plus the bank transfer details we have the rights to go and take him. But after speaking again to the police we wanted to carry on and give the farmer the 7 days as in the note. ( which run out today at noon.) we were asked to go to our local police station and take the horses paperwork, which is what we did as we would need a police escort, we were then asked to speak to a officer who had the most knowledge in horses, they then phoned the farmer and asked him to allow us to collect the horse. He said no as the horse was neglected and he is concerned for the horses welfare. He said he would fax over information for the police to look at. We have no idea what this is as I had not seen the horse since beginning of may but the lady said she had a call from the RSPCA to ask if she had abandoned her horses to which she replied No.
So now we have to wait for the police to look through paperwork, but Northants horse watch removed my stolen photo saying that the owner has shown them paperwork proving he is the owner plus they have spoken to the police! Not once asking for our story but we have seen private messages on fb so assume they were involved with his claim on the horse.
My sister and I have a few rescue horses/ponies which are all well looked after not once having any issues with the RSPCA but in fact helping them on more than one occasion. Not selling them on or putting tho market, they come to us and sometime we find Loan homes, but mostly just enjoying their
Life's. Earlier on this year I went one evening to check 2 ponies on loan, only to have them home by 9am the next morning as the level of care was not how we wanted it.
I have been told by people living close to the field that the farmers sons girlfriend asked lots of questions before the horse was taken about what was he like to ride? Did he hunt? How old etc. We found out from locals that the farmer has been fined by the RSPCA on at least 2 occasion's (here say not confirmed) but we are suppose to believe the welfare of the horse is why he won't give him back. So really why are Northants horsewatch on Facebook removing my post yet supporting the farmer?.
I just wanted people who may have had the same thing, tell me if they got there horse back or not. And to say the farmer can't take a horse as livery debt if you don't have a lien or rent contract. He was also informed he had issued an abandonment notice on the wrong person and he said he issued it on the horse, well as stated in the letter to said farmer a horse doesn't understand British law or have the capability of reading it. So equine solicitor says we have the right to remove him, police are saying to hold off

 

[galaxy]

What an awful situation!

I ca'n't be of any help, but what have the police now told you to do? What exactly are they waiting for?

I hope your (prob now ex!) friend is suitably apologetic!

 

[xxkiarazz]

Thankyou Galaxy, At the moment we are waiting for the police to look at information the farmer faxed over.
As for the friend, Trust is everything, so without Trust theres no friendship xx

 

[galaxy]

what on earth could he have the would prove ownership? Doesn't sound like he had a contract with your friend saying he would claim the horse if she didnt pay the bills, but even if he did, it wasn't her horse!!!

Keep us updated.

 

[northernsoul]

Its quite a complex issue, have you seen the horse? And its no were to be seen ?You need to get this horse back asap seems its really at litigation , farmer needs to issue court proceedings against your ex friend for money owed, and costs , cant you ahem- see your horse wandering and take him home ? I would speak to the highest person in the force to get things moving ! Good luck

 

[xxkiarazz]

we have tried to see our horse but as i've been kicked off his land am not allowed on to try to see him, hence the need to take a police officer in case they try to do me for preace of the peace, i've got another phone number to ring tomorrow the 5th police officer, all we are told is he is safe but don't actually think a police officer has seen him and if they have we haven't been told. Think they are going on his say so like we did with our friend who told us he was fine if a bit overweight x

 

[justmemydear]

sorry that was me was in my sisters name, i've been abused down the phone by this farmer when he knew i had also taken legal advise and when he saw my letter he booted me off his land. We feel ganged up on by our local horsewatch group who have offered no help at all bar deleting our posts x

 

[Pidgeon]

Send a PM to PeterNatt to see if he can offer any advice. Also try MHOL as well for advice.

 

[justmemydear]

our solicitor is clear we haven't given title of said 'property' to this farmer so legally we can go put a headcollar on and lead him away, i then message our horsewatch today and got this reply

Hi

Why has my stolen horse post been removed?

reply..........
We were contacted by the person who say's and has proof that they are the owner of that horse. Also, you only supplied an incident number and not a crime reference number, we liased with the Police, who confirmed all of this information.

me..........
interesting thank you will copy what you have said for solicitor as i have passport and all legal documents for this horse

reply.............
ok, that's fine

 

[henryhorn]

I had someone dump three horses on me without paying any livery for nearly three years.
I used The Country Landowners legal team to discover what my rights were.
It boils down to the farmer cannot sell the horse unless he has issued a tuit to the owner, plus he has to give the owner a month's notice after that too.
From what you say he has no business keeping the horse debt or not, it's up to him to pursue the person he had the livery agreement with through the courts.
If you suspect your horse is suffering then contact WHW who will investigate, but provided the agreement wasn't with you then I think you have every right to enter onto his property to remove your horse with the help of the Police.
Usually however some parts of a story can be viewed differenty by others involved, so that could be why you are struggling.
In our case we gave one horse to a retirement charity where he ended his days, had another euthanised at home as it was far too dangerous to try and pass on, and sold the third...Of course I lost money over it.

 

[justmemydear]

thank you henry, we've been at this since we found out last week, everyone seems so slow as apparently there is more important crimes going on and it will be sorted this week, but we want to be able to check our horse x

 

[windseywoo]

I don't really have much to say regarding your situation, however having read a few of these loaning horror stories where the horse is supposedly loaned to a friend and then something happens; I am never loaning my horse to anyone. If I decide for whatever reason that I do not want or can not look after him anymore then I will sell him, because I really don't think I could live with the guilt of having someone I trust to look after my horse and then allow such a horrible thing to happen and not have the balls to tell the truth.
Hope it does get sorted for you soon and that you are at least allowed to see you horse as a matter of urgency.

 

[MHOL]

Please goto our website missinghorsesonloan there is a number on there to ring for immediate advise, i presume the police saw a receipt which is "proof of ownership" a passport is not, saying that, is the horse freezemarked or microchipped? Have you rang the passport office and blocked the passport from change of ownership? Athough only a few days left have you associated the passport with NED online? Do you have the original loan agreement? Do you have a receipt for when you bought him?

 

[justmemydear]

Hi

Today i have spoken to a 5th police officer who has said if he has issued an abandonment notice it makes the situation more complex if an owner comes forward as was a loan horse as this act was mainly designed for gypsies leaving horses in field or recently people leaving horses at livery yards but that maybe his ownership.

Northants horse watch have said this 'We were contacted by the person who say's and has proof that they are the owner of that horse. Also, you only supplied an incident number and not a crime reference number, we liased with the Police, who confirmed all of this information' ..............but we have the receipt from when we brought him, microchip number, passport and import paperwork, this farmer didn't even know the horses name.

The police officer today is going to contact the 4th officer to find out what paperwork she has been faxed and also talk to their civil solicitor, she also said mediation between us to find out what this farmer actually wants may help as he's just nasty to me on the phone.

p.s just had call from my sister who has spoken to loads of locals to say a dog walker who walked to see him everyday has rang her and that there was no notice on his gate and she has asked other dog walkers but was one opposite his field owned by same farmer which had gypsy horses in there then a for sale poster where farmer was selling the coloured cobs. She said he had a chipped back hoof and a small cut on his leg so maybe this is the neglect the farmer is talking about x

 

[MHOL]

Hi

Today i have spoken to a 5th police officer who has said if he has issued an abandonment notice it makes the situation more complex if an owner comes forward as was a loan horse as this act was mainly designed for gypsies leaving horses in field or recently people leaving horses at livery yards but that maybe his ownership.

Northants horse watch have said this 'We were contacted by the person who say's and has proof that they are the owner of that horse. Also, you only supplied an incident number and not a crime reference number, we liased with the Police, who confirmed all of this information' ..............but we have the receipt from when we brought him, microchip number, passport and import paperwork, this farmer didn't even know the horses name.

The police officer today is going to contact the 4th officer to find out what paperwork she has been faxed and also talk to their civil solicitor, she also said mediation between us to find out what this farmer actually wants may help as he's just nasty to me on the phone.

p.s just had call from my sister who has spoken to loads of locals to say a dog walker who walked to see him everyday has rang her and that there was no notice on his gate and she has asked other dog walkers but was one opposite his field owned by same farmer which had gypsy horses in there then a for sale poster where farmer was selling the coloured cobs. She said he had a chipped back hoof and a small cut on his leg so maybe this is the neglect the farmer is talking about x

Have you notified the passport office, and the microchip people? Put a block on it or he could apply for a duplicate passport, if an abandonment notice was put up they also have to prove they searched for the owner to come forward, ie a newspaper advert. if you need please email us or ring

 

[MHOL]

What steps do I take if a horse is abandoned on my land/Livery Yard/rented field?
First, you must determine whether the horse has truly been abandoned. It could be a stray or has escaped from its field. The owner has to be given a chance to come forward to claim their animal before you make alternative arrangements for the horse's future.
If your land is being 'flygrazed' by those who do not have their own land at their disposal, quietly display an abandonment notice, and you may find the horse disppears as quickly as it appeared.
If you find a horse on your land, it is advisable to take the following steps to enable you to prove that you have acted responsibly and made every effort to resolve the situation, just in case the horse's owner challenges you at a later date. Keep a record of your actions in a diary format and any costs you incur.
If you find an abandoned equine on your land, remember that it may well be frightened and should not be approached unless necessary. Always offer the equine some fresh water and, if possible, contain them in a place where they can graze safely.
If you can, look to see if the equine has a freezemark. If it does, make a note of the mark and contact Farmkey on 0870 870 7107 or Freezemark Ltd on 01295 690090.
Look for signs of active care such as being shod, clipped, having a hogged mane, trimmed tail or trimmed whiskers which indicate that there is an active owner who will be looking for their escapee as soon as their absence is noted.
Do not assume that a horse with an unkempt appearance has been abandoned, although it is more likely.
Call a vet if there are any immediate health problems. It is your responsibility to ensure the horse's basic needs are met.
Ask a vet or local livery yard owner to scan the horse for a microchip. Contact NED (National Equine Databse) or Petlog if the horse has one.
Report the situation to the police. If the horse has escaped, they may be aware. Ask for an incident number for future reference
Check www.stolenhorseregister.com and www.ukhorsewatch.org.uk for equines that have been stolen. The National Equine Database now also has a lost/stolen register at www.nedonline.co.uk.
Report the situation to the RSPCA. Although they do not always get involved directly, inspectors may have or discover relevant information. The RSPCA needs to be aware if the horse is in poor condition or has injuries.
Check www.stolenhorseregister.com, www.ukhorsewatch.org.uk and www.nedonline.co.uk, for horses that have been stolen or gone missing while on loan.
If there is no sign of an owner, put up an abandonment notice for at least two weeks. Download an Abandonment Notice here. Include a contact number and address, a very short description of the horse and your intention to remove and rehome a horse if no owner comes forward. Display the notice prominently where you found the horse.
Put up notices in local shops, and inform local livery yards and riding schools. It is good practice to display another abandonment notice for seven days at the end of the 14-day period.
If an owner comes forward...
If you are approached by someone claiming to be the owner, it is advisable to ask to see the horse passport which they should, by law, have in their possession. This will prevent someone fraudulently claiming the horse. The passport will contain a detailed description of the equine which can be checked against the abandoned animal.
Remember that a passport is not legal proof of ownership, however it should give some assurance that the person is the owner. There are situations, however, when a person may not have a passport to show, such as when they have only just purchased the equine. Alternatively if someone has photos or can give an accurate description this would be acceptable as an indication of ownership. As the aim is to have the equine successfully removed from your land, you will not want to obstruct this from happening; however, if you do have concerns that they are not the legal owner of the equine, contact the Police for advice.

If an owner DOES NOT come forward...
If no owner comes forward within the defined period, by law you are able to take legal responsibility for the equine. This allows someone to sell, rehome, euthanase or keep the horse.
However you may have difficulty acquiring a passport for the horse, which is a legal requirement. It is essential if you want to sell the horse, or it needs treatment from a vet. You will need to contact DEFRA for advice on this issue 08459 33 55 77.
If, following the advised time period for an abandonment notice, the equine is still on your land and no owner has come forward, your next action will largely depend on whether the equine is of high value or would be able to be re-homed privately, perhaps as a companion. By acting responsibly, keeping clear records and by giving the owner a clear time period to respond, you have covered yourself against a future claim. A court would see that a responsible owner should attend to their equine a minimum of once a day, so a notice in place for 14 (or even 21) days would be more than adequate warning for them to respond.
It would be unreasonable to expect the landowner to keep the equine indefinitely and after following the steps above, if the problem remains, it is reasonable to look to make alternative arrangements for the horse's future. If it is young or looks to be of value it would however be advisable to seek legal advice if you intend to sell on or castrate the animal. Some legislation requires the horse to be sold at 'open market' to ensure fairness. If sold to a private home it is advisable to obtain a valuation by an equine professional, and then from the sale you would be entitled to deduct reasonable costs. Any money left over should be kept for a period of six months in case an owner comes forward at a later date. This sounds unlikely, but some situations involve loaning out where the legal owner isn't immediately aware of the equine's plight.
Whatever course of action you decide to take, it is imperative to keep records of money spent or received, expenses incurred and actions taken (such as veterinary treatment, vaccinations, worming and so on) for several months afterwards. If an owner does come forward, you are entitled to ask for some compensation to cover your outlay, although this must be reasonable and not overinflated.
There will always be the remote possibility that an owner comes forward in the future wishing to reclaim the horse (if the horse has been stolen before it was abandoned, they may have spent months looking for their equine). Here the law becomes even more complex and if an agreement with the owner cannot be reached, you may need to take legal advice to resolve the situation satisfactorily.

 

[OWLIE185]

Firstly ammend your horses record on www.nedonline to 'Stolen' and ensure that your horses record contains it's microchip number and freeemark.

Get your solicitor to contact each of the police officers concerned and advise them that you are the owner of the horse and that they are obliged to to assist you in the removal of the horse.

If the police fail to assist you then immediately contact the chief constable for the area and he will instruct them to asist you.

 

[Star_Chaser]

good lord what a mess sorry but it sounds that by the time the legal nonsense is dealt with you will have lost your horse altogether. Go above the police officers you have spoken to as they are obviously not doing their job!

 

[Rose Folly]

You poor things. What a can of worms. Luckily there are people on this forum who obviously know what they are talking about so take their advice. I really hope and pray you get your horse back soon - and get some new friends!!

 

[justmemydear]

Have to ring NED as he's an import won't let me register him online, also been told today by the police civil solicitor its a civil matter so have to take the farmer to court under 'Competing claim for ownership' so have just downloaded a N1 form, they said he will have to prove in court he tried everything possible to locate an owner x

 

[justmemydear]

 

[justmemydear]

microchip number 528210001093666

 

[Tinseltoes]

Nice horse.Hope you get him back soon.

 

[justmemydear]

Thank you tinseltoes off to court it is then as i'm not going away x

 

[Star_Chaser]

I'd make sure that you get a solicitor to inform him that you are taking court proceedings to make sure that he doesn't sell him on for any reason. Shame you can't just nip in and take him back.

 

[Bigbenji]

So who's name is on the recepit as the seller then?

Surely that is irrelavent?

You have recepits for the horse and a loan contract? surely then whoever 'sold' the farmer the horse is guilty of theft? Does selling stolen property not count with horses?!

The issue is with the farmer and the person who loaned your horse and as you have come forward and let him know that you are the owner he should release the horse and persue moneies owed from this person another way.

Sounds like a nightmare

 

[Rollin]

Please goto our website missinghorsesonloan there is a number on there to ring for immediate advise, i presume the police saw a receipt which is "proof of ownership" a passport is not, saying that, is the horse freezemarked or microchipped? Have you rang the passport office and blocked the passport from change of ownership? Athough only a few days left have you associated the passport with NED online? Do you have the original loan agreement? Do you have a receipt for when you bought him?

I think you should lobby for DEFRA to hand NED over to the French. I have two documents for my horses, a passport and a Carte D'Immatriculation, which is an ownership document.

The Carte should be kept separate to the passport as it is proof of ownership. When a horse is sold vendor and purchaser sign the paper which is returned to the only PIO in France, the National Stud and a new ownership document is issued.

 

[imasmartie]

its sad that people see fit to put owners through this torment, years ago if you told someone you had lost your job [or circumstances had changed for what ever reason] a livery yard owner would /may have offered a cheaper solution or said there 10 days notice move and pay me what you can these days money runs and ruins everything.
I will relate to you a very short very painful story, I will not say the location or the person persons involved,
the case involved 2 people and 6 horses all went private yard haylege on site own grazing etc. when they first arrived my friend said the livery yard owner came down to see the horses and seemed to be eyeing them up the story below explains why that feeling was right
the one of the people involved got badly injured through her job of work. she was off work for 4 months it happened in the October, then the other person lost her main job, they struggled on until the end of February
the livery yard owner became some brat from hell there is no doubt they struggled and couldn't pay the amount was 450.00 a month, plus hay 30.00 bale not cheap, there was no bartering with this livery owner,they filled court papers, to the tune of 1,400.
[if they couldn't pay 450 they had no chance] the papers also said the horses had been abandoned and they had defra down to get the microchips this was also stated in the paper work
the yard owner would not even let them pay for two horses and remove them because they still wanted paying for the yard rent,
they saw a solicitor, they had all the passports, etc, the solicitor stated and it was not without symphony to give the yard owner the passports and let them get on with it cause in the long run it will cost her more to keep than your bill and a sensible person would have worked with horse owners to get paid and remove horses and not act like this
however he also stated its a civle case.
they couldn't remove any of the horses the stress it caused was just totally not think able, that's all im going to say apart from they borrowed the money and left the horses were in a very poor state because of the yard owners actions the horses had been left out to grass in feb because the yard owner saw fit to denie access apart from certin times of the day
a part from the yard owner had done it all before they took horse for bills owing in fact if you search horses at beeston sale on u tube I'm sure he is the horse that's on one of the videos.
its sad that its happened to you although not quite the same and if they have still seen fit to remove the horse you are going to have a near impossible job I would think to get the animal back.

 

[WelshD]

Was the livery fee owed? If so I'd put pressure on the friend to stump it up, it's unlikely but it could be all that's needed to sort this out - I'm guessing you've tried that though? What does the friend say about all of this?

Surely your passport etc plus a loan agreement with your friend should make this a cut and dried case? Is it possible your friend sold the horse to the farmer or there is something else you aren't aware of?

 

[pixie]

imasmartie: Like it or not, livery yards are a business. They are not there to finance someone else's hobby. If the owners could no longer pay the bills then they should have sold the horses themselves or moved to cheaper livery instead of keeping them there and racking up a huge livery bill.

In the OP's position, the livery owner should have had her contact details so that they could get hold of her once the loaner stopped paying the bills.