Horse taking off with me - advice please

Andalusians are, Like Cleveland Bays, increadibly intelligent animals. re your puddle issues you need to be VERY black and white...he must do as you ask and you must not give up - if you do, he will remember it and try you all the more. You MUST remain calm and unbothered - when my boy stops at a puddle when lead, I walk backwards and forwards through it with a carefree attitued, while gently persuading him to come and join me! when he does, he gets lots of praise and we carry on... The Key is DON'T MAKE A BIG DEAL OF THINGS.

Re your bogging off issues... I think they relate to the above - he is very intellingent and he has very few opportunities for letting off steam and little to occupy his brain... my CB is always looking for something to do and loves doing new things.. he is opinionated and always thinks he has a choice in the matter but this is where you have to be very strict - you want him to go through that puddle, he MUST go through that puddle - no ifs or buts.... Keeping him isolated from the herd, while 'preventing injury' might be causing him phsycological distress and I would urge you to re-consider his grazing arrangements... I know when mine is kept on his own for any prolonged periods (weeks rather than hours or days) he gets increasingly difficult to handle. Even if he only spent 50% of his time with the herd... or even 25%, it is better than nothing.

He needs regular and varied work - lunge some days, school others and then hack the rest... introduce poles and even some jumping to keep his mind occupied.

Feedwise - I would, if he needs any feed at all, just put him on fast fibre. I'm not 100% sure but I think safe and Sound contains Alfa -a - this sent my friend's Andy absolutely potty!! (even just a small handful!!)

Bit wise, if you do want to change I wouldn't go straight for a gag - there are lots in between and my first choice would be a full cheek waterford - absolutely fantastic as the the full cheek when used with keepers exerts a little pole pressure while the warterford mouthpiece collapses in their mouth meaning they have nlothing to lean against - works for my strapping 17.1hh CB anyway...

Good luck!
 
Thank you CBFan - you've given a lot of things to think through which certainly could help.

The problem with Teyo is that whatever he doesn't want to do he REALLY protests... for instance, with puddles - he absolutely won't go through them. The first time we encountered them after I bought him (18 months ago) I wasn't expecting any adverse reaction and was relaxed and not holding him in anything but a soft contact, but.... - he went backwards and sideways and then reversed up a very steep bank and put his hindquarters in the barbed wire, he then jog trotted sideways along the fence. He had a waterproof exercise rug on at the time so fortunately didn't cut himself - however the rug was in shreds. All that to evade going through a medium sized puddle! He's done this regularly and I simply don't know how to get him used to water.

By the way, he's not a big horse (15.3hh)
 
Maybe you could do a bit of ground work with him, get him listening and respecting you a bit more. As some1 else said jogging if not asked is a no no for me. Then try a bit more schooling, i'd do that mainly in an arena too start with so if he does protest your in a safe place 2 keep asking for what you want. Try a bit of long reining too and work up to long reining through makeshift puddles at home.
 
Oriel said:
Thank you CBFan - you've given a lot of things to think through which certainly could help.

The problem with Teyo is that whatever he doesn't want to do he REALLY protests... for instance, with puddles - he absolutely won't go through them. The first time we encountered them after I bought him (18 months ago) I wasn't expecting any adverse reaction and was relaxed and not holding him in anything but a soft contact, but.... - he went backwards and sideways and then reversed up a very steep bank and put his hindquarters in the barbed wire, he then jog trotted sideways along the fence. He had a waterproof exercise rug on at the time so fortunately didn't cut himself - however the rug was in shreds. All that to evade going through a medium sized puddle! He's done this regularly and I simply don't know how to get him used to water.

By the way, he's not a big horse (15.3hh)
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Patience!! and you need to show him that whatever it is he's frightened of is safe... that means you go first!! I have done a considerable amount of in-hand work with my boy to teach him to be brave - lead him with a lungeline attached to his bridle and work with pressure and release. persuade him to get as close as possible to the offending item and if he point blank refuses to go any closer you have to touch it / get in it yourself and reassure him that its ok, then ask him again to join you. I occasionally use treats to re-inforce the niceness of the situation to him... Do you have any large puddles within safe confines? ones that he can't leap over? he may dance round the outside of them but as long as he actually has to step in the water to follow you that will be ok... alternatively - blue tarpaulin weighted down at the edges in the safe confines of a field / arena? just practice getting him to follow you over scary things...
 
The first step imo is to stop him jogging. He thinks he can do as he pleases, so will continue to up the ante if you don't take charge. Ask your OH for tips if the horse behaves with him.
 
Right, here is what you need to do.

Cut out all jogging, the impression which I have got from reading this thread is that you are more than a passenger as oppose to being the rider. Do not let him jog, he walks when you say walk and trots when you say trot. You say that he is headstrong, even more the reason to cut out any bad habits and behaviors or else things will only get worse, it seems to me that he is just starting to twig that he has more control than you.

Don't change the bit, with him being so headstrong if you change the bit you are forcing him to do something which he doesn't want to do, which will result in disastrous consequences. In my opinion, if you change the bit you may find that he will go to great lengths to evade it, he will start backing up and off the bit, at which point you will kick him on which will then cause him to rear as he has no other place to go! Sadly in them sort of situations the only way is up, and then that can be the start of another problematic and dangerous habit!

Now then, in sticking with the snaffle there are a few things which you will need to work on. First school a teensy bit more, like if I were you I would school for the next 3 days and just get him listening to me! No jogging, when he walks nicely give him a big fuss! If he starts to jog, just relax your body completely (no tenseness!) and say 'woah' very softly and quietly just once. Most horses will instantly chill and walk, which is when you then make a big fuss of him for coming down to walk! With him being so headstrong force really isn't the way forward, it will only agitate him further! Also keep him on his toes by asking for different things, ie. walk-trot-walk-trot-canter-walk-trot-canter-trot-canter etc. and throw in some circles/serpentines and the like. This will encourage him to rely more on you as oppose to his own judgement!

Also, I would cut out the feed and turnout everyday in the field. This will give him the chance to stretch his legs and get any frolicking out of his system, you say that he is on restricted grazing so I assume he is on a bare/scarce paddock? If not, get that addressed and then turn him out for longer. You could also freeschool/stick him on a lunge once a week so that he can get any gallops/bucks/general excitedness out of his system? Do you mainly walk on these hacks? If so then it wouldn't hurt to do some proper schooling 2/3 times a week where you can tire him out to help remove any fizz, also you can continue with what I mentioned earlier which will help with his taking off! I cannot stress more turnout enough, I think that he would benefit a lot from the extra freedom/space to move!

Now then, Rome wasn't built in a day but overtime if you follow this method then trust me when I say that he will improve! You might find yourself pleasantly surprised! I have owned and worked with A lot of headstrong horses and force really isn't the way forward, you need to work with them not against them! Also extra handling on the ground will help, just get him used to listening to you more!

So basically, stick with the bit, school solidly for 3/4 days just to get him used to listening to you, handle a little more on the ground (can't hurt!), turnout more (on a bare/scarce paddock! If there isn't one maybe you could segregate a bit of a paddock and have it grazed down before putting him on it?), cut out the feed and don't use force as it will only escalate the situation!

Ps. There is a trick which I was taught and use if/when a horse tanks off, now then some fluffy bunnies may not agree but it is harmless and the horse will very rarely take off with you again! Now then firstly you need to be in an open space, which is great because most of the time when a horse tanks off it's in an open field. Now what you do it just sit there, steer onto a very large circle and let the horse keep galloping/cantering. Now then when the horse gets tired and thinks 'Ok, I'll stop now' that's when you say 'Hang on, you did this so you can deal with it' and instead of letting them stop push them on and keep them going. Now I'm not saying run your horse into the ground or anything but what you are doing is saying 'I'm the boss and I will chose when we stop, not you.' Once the horse is good and sweaty and after you've had to push them on for a few minutes allow them to stop. This is a great technique because since the horse is slightly tired and you are going forward it is very hard for a headstrong horse to act up and also it is far kinder than putting a strong bit in the horses mouth and yanking on it every time you go out riding! Do this once, really tire him out, and chances are he won't do it again as he knows that he will end up getting a bloody good workout! Not everybody's choice of method I know, but I'd much rather run a few laps once and be shattered than have a strong bit pulled in my mouth maybe 4/5 times each ride?
Just something to think about! :D
 
I wasn't expecting any adverse reaction and was relaxed and not holding him in anything but a soft contact, but.... - he went backwards and sideways and then reversed up a very steep bank and put his hindquarters in the barbed wire, he then jog trotted sideways along the fence. He had a waterproof exercise rug on at the time so fortunately didn't cut himself - however the rug was in shreds. All that to evade going through a medium sized puddle! He's done this regularly and I simply don't know how to get him used to water.
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The way I introduce youngsters to water is to lead them inhand, I go first and stand in the puddle and let them approach it of their own accord. Again don't drag him into the puddle, stand in it and hold out a treat, it may take a little patience but trust me, he will come into that puddle. Keep doing that, once he will physically stand in a puddle you can then walk him through them inhand, but make sure to keep up the pace! Just act like the puddle isn't even there, walk with purpose and he will follow. If you don't acknowledge it then he will soon learn that there is nothing to be scared of. Also make sure to give plenty of big fusses when he behaves well and does what you have asked!
A golden rule with any horse is that exposure is key.
 
LollyDolly, I really like your style! After a tricky time with a dealer/horse last year, I have just thrown myself back into the fray by taking on a long-term loan horse. He is 5 and a half and has spent the last 2 years in various (and dubious) London riding schools. He is about to find himself in seventh heaven w unlimited ayto and amazing hacking. He was introduced to this amazing hacking for half an hour the other day on a 'test drive'. He loved it, but his eyes were on stalks. He has obvs never been anywhere like it. I am going to think of your advice when I sally forth on my own w him - 'make as though it's nothing' and remind myself that he vibe comes from 'the leader'. Thanks.
 
OP trust your instinct and change your bit. With the spring grass mine went through a phase of tanking off in canter half a dozen times each hack and I kept saying to anyone who’d listen I needed to go up a bit….then my soft side kicked and I wouldn’t as I didn’t want to be harsh. We had one tank too many, she caught her toe on uneven ground and we had a full rotational fall. We were both extremely lucky, she bit her lip and I was black, blue and sore for a week. We went from a French link to a gag but have just come back down again to a snaffle with lozenge, you don’t have to change forever – please stay safe.
 
joelb said:
OP trust your instinct and change your bit. With the spring grass mine went through a phase of tanking off in canter half a dozen times each hack and I kept saying to anyone who’d listen I needed to go up a bit….then my soft side kicked and I wouldn’t as I didn’t want to be harsh. We had one tank too many, she caught her toe on uneven ground and we had a full rotational fall. We were both extremely lucky, she bit her lip and I was black, blue and sore for a week. We went from a French link to a gag but have just come back down again to a snaffle with lozenge, you don’t have to change forever – please stay safe.
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Totally agree with this - just knowing you can stop should they tank off is often enough to stop you tensing up and also to let them know they can't ignore what you're asking!! I only ever bit up for a couple of times anf go back to a snaffle. Normally enough to have done the trick.
 
Thank you all very much for your advice - I didn't expect so much response. I'm going to think things through and talk to my instructor - then go from there.

Thanks again - much appreciated!
 
I'm all for a stronger bit where safety is at stake. My warmblood gelding used to do that and as far as I was concerned he got too far in the KKUltra I had him in before I could pull up. I changed him to a two ring gag and that meant if he tried it I could get him back in 5 strides instead of 20 strides - the further horses get the more likely imo it is to turn into a full on bolt as they get the wind up them and panic themselves.

My safety is more important than some training idyll. He soon gave it up when he realised he couldn't get very far. He does still do it occasionally when he sees something that really spooks him but rarely and he doesn't get very far. In between I ride him on a very light contact so it's not constantly putting pressure on him. He jolly well knows when he has that bit in and when he doesn't! :)
 
My safety is more important than some training idyll.
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As I mentioned in my earlier post, with a headstrong horse you might find that a stronger bit will make the situation worse and the riders safety will be further compromised. My old ISH dressage horse was terribly headstrong and when we were competing at Prestige in the Ridden Hunter Class (can't say we did much showing but somehow we qualified!) I had to ride in a pelham. It was a nightmare, he would just rear in it! Sure, I had more control than a snaffle but I also had a very unhappy horse!
Like I say, the horse may try to back off the bit by backing up a bit and refusing to go forward, then when the rider kicks them on the only way for the horse to go is up!
A headstrong horse doesn't take well to the use of force, also in doing some training the issue will be solved long term as oppose to a short term and potentially dangerous situation.

He jolly well knows when he has that bit in and when he doesn't!
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This is a common problem when using a stronger bit on a horse, when you go back to the old standard bit the horse tends to act up because you don't have the same level of power that you had before. Therefore the horse is ridden in the stronger bit more frequently until the owner can no longer ride in the old bit.
 
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LollyDolly said:
A headstrong horse doesn't take well to the use of force, also in doing some training the issue will be solved long term as oppose to a short term and potentially dangerous situation.
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Um no actually, however much schooling some horses get they still won't always go safely in a snaffle - otherwise top showjumpers and eventers would all be snaffle mouthed ;)

A bit is only as soft as the person's hands, so far better using a bit that the horse respects than one it doesn't. Where has anyone suggested changing the bit to 'force' the horse to do anything :confused: Hacking out, legally you should be in control of your horse on the roads, so for a horse with a history of taking off you need to be taking responsibility.

OP - your instructor will be the best person to advise, knowing you and your horse's capabilities. Good on you for wanting to deal with the problem now, and not waiting until you have an accident. Plenty of good ideas on here :)
 
Well I only gave my own personal advice, I didn't say that it was the gospel truth. Everyone has different opinions and it wouldn't do for us all to share the same views or else the world would be a very boring place!

I have to agree though, your riding instructor would be the best person to ask as she knows both you and the horse!

Best of luck! :D
 
My new welsh pony was being a typical welsh a few weeks ago - setting his neck and going, unstoppable - dangerous really.

I've changed to a waterford hanging cheek and LOVE it. It's such a soft, mild bit when used on a light rein, moulding to his mouth. And if I do need to take hold I know because it's not single jointed he won't get a jab, making matters worse.

I've ditched the flash and martingale now and I can now canter him on a light rein.

My scenario was different though in that he didn't bolt - he just wouldn't stop when asked to trot / canter and when he goes he tucks his chin into his neck, rather than putting his head down.
 
just to go back to what lollydolly said, iberians' are very sensitive and some horses dont like the poll pressure of gag bits and will rear if they take exception.
if you do decide to go for a stronger bit OP make sure you test your horse out in it in a sand school or safe area before embarking on a hack for the first time useing it!
 
Are Iberians really any more sensitive than other breeds? My WB is pretty sensitive and intelligent. These are traditional bits used on Iberian horses.

http://www.equus-libris.com/catalog...65_71&osCsid=f4ccb1fde943d19a42edee65aee7ab73

A lot harsher than what you get in most English tack shops :)

I'm not saying the OP shouldn't work on schooling issues or improving their own technique but I think a lot of naughty behaviour becomes habitual if not nipped in the bud and in the meantime unless no hacking is done then one of the options for safety is a bit that gives brakes.
 
Yes, Iberians are more sensitive than other breeds and far more intelligent! I'm only going on my own experience though, which ranges from Shetlands to Shire crosses.

Alfalfa can had an adverse effect on some horses, not just Andalusians, so I'd cut that out completely. I don't feed haylage to mine either, for the same reason.

Do a lot of groundwork with him (lungeing etc.). It sounds like he may be a late cut stallion, which is quite common, and you need to create a bond and make him realise who is in charge. Also, lunge him before you ride him to take some of the freshness off.

My own PRE (Andalusian) stallion came with a puddle issue, but will happily walk through them now. He responds well to being told he is a 'good boy' when he does something right, but it is really a matter of trust. If they trust you, they'll jump off a cliff if you ask them to, which is one of the reasons they are used as stunt horses.

Don't shorten your stirrups! Unless someone has experienced it, they have absolutely no idea how quick and agile an Andalusian is. They make a TB's spook look like a carthorse's!

Why couldn't he have just one horse, or pony, in his paddock with him instead of the sheep?
 
templewood said:
Yes, Iberians are more sensitive than other breeds and far more intelligent! I'm only going on my own experience though, which ranges from Shetlands to Shire crosses.

Alfalfa can had an adverse effect on some horses, not just Andalusians, so I'd cut that out completely. I don't feed haylage to mine either, for the same reason.

Do a lot of groundwork with him (lungeing etc.). It sounds like he may be a late cut stallion, which is quite common, and you need to create a bond and make him realise who is in charge. Also, lunge him before you ride him to take some of the freshness off.

My own PRE (Andalusian) stallion came with a puddle issue, but will happily walk through them now. He responds well to being told he is a 'good boy' when he does something right, but it is really a matter of trust. If they trust you, they'll jump off a cliff if you ask them to, which is one of the reasons they are used as stunt horses.

Don't shorten your stirrups! Unless someone has experienced it, they have absolutely no idea how quick and agile an Andalusian is. They make a TB's spook look like a carthorse's!

Why couldn't he have just one horse, or pony, in his paddock with him instead of the sheep?
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I did try to put him in with the other 2. He spent the first few days in a sectioned off bit of their paddock then when they seemed to be getting along I allowed him in. I think Teyo was as dominate as the dominate horse and wouldn't back down. I rescued him in the end as he was about to be hurt. I tried him with the more submissive horse (husband's horse) on their own but he wouldn't leave him alone. Husband's horse is a 17hh Warmblood and is very gentle but even he was getting fed up with being bitten, struck out at, etc. I gave it a week or so before I removed husband's horse as things showed no sign of settling.

At that point i had a blood test done to make sure he'd been gelded properly and didn't have an overload testosterone - it came back normal.

He sounds like he's a nightmare! He's not really - apart from what I've mentioned about him here he's a lovely horse and full of character.
 
I agree there is a very big difference between a fresh horse and a bolter. Having sat on the latter I do know the difference and there is nothing funny about a horse that seriously will not listen and goes. I think there is also a difference with bolters too and not sure which is worse....the one off who is genuinely scared and showing flight and the one who takes charge...while not panicked, they will also show no thought for other theirs or their riders safety.

For hacking I would up the bitting and find something the horse is comfortable with. I would however not school in the stronger bit. I have pretty much always had to change bits for my horses when doing different things, the exception being my youngster. My old boy would end up in Pelham for winter hacking and XC but could go down to. Dr bristol for summer hacking and SJ. Always schooled in a loose ring snaffle.
 
Oriel, do you know much about his background?

Traditionally in Spain, once backed, males are kept entire, and therefore not in a group with other horses, so even after gelding they won't have good herd skills! They are often boxed 24 hours a day except for work, and they don't go hacking! Work is either out in the fields herding cattle, or in the school. They are also not kept as pets, and are expected to do as they are told.

Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you know, but my reason for saying it is, if he came to the UK late, he will probably have been gelded late and he will find our way of life very different!

I have experience with PREs and love them. They are the most intelligent and sensitive horses, but they need consistent handling and work that occupies their intelligence. Groundwork, schooling (especially lateral work, things that challenge him and get him listening to you), loose work if you have a suitable space, pole work etc.

Read the book by Peter Madisson Greenwell. He is my old trainer and expert on Spanish horses. Jenni Rolfe has also written a book. And maybe find an instructor with experience of Iberians.

Build a relationship where your boy knows you are in charge and trusts you and he will do anything for you.
 
BeesKnees said:
Oriel, do you know much about his background?

Traditionally in Spain, once backed, males are kept entire, and therefore not in a group with other horses, so even after gelding they won't have good herd skills! They are often boxed 24 hours a day except for work, and they don't go hacking! Work is either out in the fields herding cattle, or in the school. They are also not kept as pets, and are expected to do as they are told.

Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you know, but my reason for saying it is, if he came to the UK late, he will probably have been gelded late and he will find our way of life very different!

I have experience with PREs and love them. They are the most intelligent and sensitive horses, but they need consistent handling and work that occupies their intelligence. Groundwork, schooling (especially lateral work, things that challenge him and get him listening to you), loose work if you have a suitable space, pole work etc.

Read the book by Peter Madisson Greenwell. He is my old trainer and expert on Spanish horses. Jenni Rolfe has also written a book. And maybe find an instructor with experience of Iberians.

Build a relationship where your boy knows you are in charge and trusts you and he will do anything for you.
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Yes lack of herd skills would certainly account for the way he is - he just doesn't seem to be able to settle quietly into life in a shared field and makes sure no-one else does either! He does seem quite settled with his sheep companions though - although he does herd them. :)

Thanks to everyone for their helpful advice...
 
If he was gelded late, he will have learned stallion behaviours, which sounds like the case.

It would be a good idea to get a trainer who is experienced with Andalusians, otherwise they can often just make matters worse.
There is an old saying, which goes something like this 'You tell a gelding, ask a mare, and discuss with a stallion'. As your boy seems to still think he's a stallion, it might be worth bearing in mind! They can get very resentful if they think you are being unfair.
It would be worth joining the BAPSH group on Facebook. You don't have to be a member of BAPSH, and you can get advice and discuss your problems with people who have probably been there themselves at some point.
 
My friend's Andalusian was very difficult to integrate into a herd too to begin with but she persevered and it paid off... he is definately the sort that likes things to play with so perhaps some field toys - space hoppers, treatballs and the like might be a good idea ;)
 
Ditto Susieoci and all other 'natural' advice. Check he has the right bit but not necessarily a stronger bit. Have you tried Mylers? With his more restricted grazing, is he getting to squeal and buck, be a horse, in his own time, is he able to be a mentally sound and happy horse (which is not the same as a happy human)? Have you got the right balance of respect in your partnership on the ground, not necessarily ground'work' but in everything thing you do together daily? Does he/should he view you as a leader to trust and respect, calm and in control at all times (well, as much as possible :) )? I do think sometimes we forget, when trying to get the daily 'work' done quickly and possibly storing up problems, that everything we do together teaches a lesson, good or bad, and that what is learnt about each other on the ground transfers to the saddle. Also, 18 months is not that long to have known each other. And I wouldn't necessarily worry about the jog/walk - I don't know Andalucians but had an Arab mare for 20 years who never gave me a straight walk but had no intention of taking off with me, so perhaps that's just his breed and you'll learn to love it!Sorry if this sounds like a fanatical, natural horsemanship lecture. Really I'm not, just a happy hacker who loves her horse's company, I just think we horse owners are so pushed for time sometimes that common sense gets lost along the way. Hope some of this helps.
 
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