Horse testing me with his strength / pulling/ barging/ HELP

[Horsekaren]

I have posted a few threads looking for advice with my bargey horse... and here I go again…
In brief my horse has been bargey in the past when being lead. I purchased a dually head collar and did some ground work with him which helped enormously and he pretty much stopped the pulling away all together.

But now he seems to have sussed my tatics and is trying his luck again, he has tried to pull off and run to grass a few times recently. Some of his attempts have been successful both while being lead by myself and my loaner at different times (this obviously doesn’t help as he is learning he is stronger and if he uses his strength I will always lose)

His latest technique has really got my goat! he use to just try and pull away (AWAY!!!) from me but now he has decided it is better to cut me up and walk across me. I know this is just plain rude but I must stress he isn’t the rude nasty type, he is just a clever boy testing his new owner.
When he does this he always manages to get his head down and eat because by walking into me and not away from me I lose the upper hand and can’t get the rope enough to spin him round. Once his head is down I pull him up and pull him round in circles using my big scary voice until he stops we then have a standoff face to face in which I give one final yank on the dually rope and tell him off. As soon as he begins to behave I tell him he is being a good boy ect so he knows how he should behave. Is there something better I should try??

I should stress when he uses this method and prats about at a fast walk or trot I can keep hold of the rope and he doesn’t manage to lose me altogether but the other day he did canter and I lost him (this was exceptional circumstances, all the horses were lose, chaos on the yard, I was trying to get him back in the field but to do this I had to take him out of sight of the heard, he panicked (way to much excitement and sugar for one morning) he went from walk to canter, cut across me, bolted and jumped the fence to get back with the others. This wasn’t a normal day, he was stressed and scared but it has made me worry that as he did get away he might try this on a normal day)

I am keen to find out some of your techniques for this type of behavior and how you would deal with it. I do not want to beat him!!!( a wack with the rope of a whip is as far as I will go) I do not want to start leading him in his bridle or a stallion chain as I feel this is a very last resort and once I get into that habit going back to anything else would lead to this whole bargy process again.

As I have said we did almost nip this in the bud, he has been perfect but since me going away for a few weeks and a few successful attempts he is up to his testing his new mum antics again!

 

[Arzada]

It may be useful to have a trainer to work with you and it might only take just one session with an Intelligent Horsemanship trainer to make a difference http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/recommended-trainers/

 

[be positive]

Instead of walking him in circles or spinning round to regain his attention, which is encouraging him to go in front of you, make him go backwards and stay next to you, having a bargy horse spin round in circles especially if they are inclined to pick up speed and take off, is not safe in my view, if he kicked out as he went you could be caught by his feet, going back is safer and will stop him gathering speed away from you, I would do lots of walk halt transitions, some backing up and really ensure he never gets faster than you ask, he needs to learn that he only moves when asked, one foot at a time is possible if you are really firm.

 

[milliepops]

Instead of walking him in circles or spinning round to regain his attention, which is encouraging him to go in front of you, make him go backwards and stay next to you, having a bargy horse spin round in circles especially if they are inclined to pick up speed and take off, is not safe in my view, if he kicked out as he went you could be caught by his feet, going back is safer and will stop him gathering speed away from you, I would do lots of walk halt transitions, some backing up and really ensure he never gets faster than you ask, he needs to learn that he only moves when asked, one foot at a time is possible if you are really firm.

good advice from BP and I would add, not to be afraid of using something stronger when you are leading him and teaching him at the moment- you need to break this habit. When they know they can pull away from you, they will keep doing so until (a) they learn what you are asking and (b) it feels important enough to the horse to *do* what you are asking.


My welsh could be like this when she first came to me - she's a tank and when she wanted to go, nothing could stop her. All the time I was educating her, I had a chain on her headcollar over the nose. That made her just pause long enough to learn what I was asking and to push it up her agenda a little.
Now she leads in a headcollar ...but the option is always there for me should she forget herself. I just won't have bad manners, horses that pull free are so dangerous.

 

[Amye]

Good advice from more experienced people up there ^^^^

I would echo the making him go backwards thing. My boy isn't really bargey to lead (only to load!) BUT if he gets in front of me I make him back up until he leads behind my shoulder. As soon as yours tries to walk in front of your shoulder, stop and back him up, it might take a while, but if you don't let him get alongside you and keep him behind then he can't cut across in front of you. Walk/halt transitions i'd also echo to get him listening to you!

Are you still doing your groundwork with the dually to make sure he understands it too? I don't want to sound patronising here as I haven't ever used a dually but are you sure you're using it correctly too? As far as I know, you need to get the release of pressure (as the 'reward') at the right time so he knows what he's doing right.

I'm also slightly concerned by the face off and the 'one final yank' of the dually? Once you've stopped spinning him in circles and he's standing do you pull on the dually? I personally wouldn't do this, one he's stood behind you quietly that's what you want, and you're putting pressure on him without actually asking him to do something - I don't think he'll understand what this means and it'll just confuse him. Horses only think in the moment and if you're 'telling him off' this needs to be timed correctly not after that action. (I might have read that bit the wrong way so sorry if I've misread!)

Or if you're struggling I'd get a pro in to help. They can show you techniques to help you. You could try something stronger to lead but I'd probably still get someone to show you how to use them in the correct way

ETA: Make you keep yourself safe too and lead in a hat and gloves

 

[Shay]

I tend to share Amye's concern about the "final yank" I do use a dually a lot - and they are very effective if used correctly. But they are a pressure release aid not a punishment. BP is absolutely right about teaching him to respect your personal space and to back up not spin. To me this sounds like the situation has got dangerous and you need some professional help to get it sorted. Intelligent horsemanship is a good place to start. (Not the one beginning with P).

 

[milliepops]

I'm also slightly concerned by the face off and the 'one final yank' of the dually? Once you've stopped spinning him in circles and he's standing do you pull on the dually? I personally wouldn't do this, one he's stood behind you quietly that's what you want, and you're putting pressure on him without actually asking him to do something - I don't think he'll understand what this means and it'll just confuse him. Horses only think in the moment and if you're 'telling him off' this needs to be timed correctly not after that action. (I might have read that bit the wrong way so sorry if I've misread!)

oh yes, I missed that somehow. It's the sort of thing that a human would understand but not a horse and definitely something to avoid particularly when using these items of training equipment. Anything like a dually or chain should be used to maintain control in the moment not to give a punishment afterwards.

 

[be positive]

oh yes, I missed that somehow. It's the sort of thing that a human would understand but not a horse and definitely something to avoid particularly when using these items of training equipment. Anything like a dually or chain should be used to maintain control in the moment not to give a punishment afterwards.

I also missed the yank, yanking once he is standing is counter productive, it is at that point I would put firm pressure on to make him do some moving about, back a few steps, forward, sideways but not by yanking just pressure then release when he goes where you want, the "punishment" is you putting him back in the position of you being in full control and getting him focused on your commands in a quiet but firm way.

 

[Damnation]

Instead of walking him in circles or spinning round to regain his attention, which is encouraging him to go in front of you, make him go backwards and stay next to you, having a bargy horse spin round in circles especially if they are inclined to pick up speed and take off, is not safe in my view, if he kicked out as he went you could be caught by his feet, going back is safer and will stop him gathering speed away from you, I would do lots of walk halt transitions, some backing up and really ensure he never gets faster than you ask, he needs to learn that he only moves when asked, one foot at a time is possible if you are really firm.

good advice from BP and I would add, not to be afraid of using something stronger when you are leading him and teaching him at the moment- you need to break this habit. When they know they can pull away from you, they will keep doing so until (a) they learn what you are asking and (b) it feels important enough to the horse to *do* what you are asking.


My welsh could be like this when she first came to me - she's a tank and when she wanted to go, nothing could stop her. All the time I was educating her, I had a chain on her headcollar over the nose. That made her just pause long enough to learn what I was asking and to push it up her agenda a little.
Now she leads in a headcollar ...but the option is always there for me should she forget herself. I just won't have bad manners, horses that pull free are so dangerous.

These.

Some horses are just too clever.

I used to work with one who was bargey and pulled away when lead. He had to have the rope around his nose at all times. Eventually his owner bought him a chain headcollar.

With the chain on you could lead him with it loose and he was nice and relaxed, the chain wasn't in effect at all. Normal headcollar = pulled away and bogged off.

I agree with doing some work with your horse using pressure release, making asking him to move back and stay beside you. You then have to learn to read the signs of him preparing to pull away. Ask him to halt, make him take a few steps back, then walk again calmly.

 

[JillA]

And get a 12ft (at least) rope. The 6ft standard ones aren't long enough if they start to mess about/bog off/ spin round but with a 12ft one you can let them prat about on the end of it and when they are done, just carry on with what you were about to do. And if he invades your space (i.e. runs you over) just quietly and persistently back him up. Getting cross will only escalate matters, quiet confidence makes all the difference.
Getting an IH RA out is a really good plan, you will get a lesson and advice on what else to expect and how to deal with it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You should correct undesirable behaviour and reward good behaviour. Any correction must come while the horse is doing the behaviour or within 3 seconds of the behaviour ending, otherwise they don't associate the correction with the undesirable behaviour. I'm assuming that the circling, yank on the dually and final telling off are all occurring well after the 3 second deadline.

I also agree that the circling isn't appropriate. It is very useful with horses that plant or rear in-hand as you want to get the horse's hooves moving, but in this case the undesirable behaviour is him pulling away or cutting across you with intent to bog off (his hooves are moving forwards too much), so a more appropriate correction would be to train standing when asked or to backing up on command.

With my boy who can be a bit overenthusiastic and a bit prone to walking too fast for me (he's sound, I'm not), I have found that really instilling a good halt in him has been very helpful. If he starts to get ahead I say 'stand' and I count randomly from 3 to 10 before asking him to walk on again. He always walks more steadily after a halt. Unfortunately someone has circled him previously and he still needs a bit more training to eradicate the cutting in front of me thing, but the halting is pre-empting that behaviour, so it is going.

 

[Identityincrisis]

I had a very difficult horse (past tense as he's good now) He was dreadful on the ground despite me being very hot on ground manners. He would lunge, teeth bared, rear, prance, stamp on me, cut in front of me, bite (he was awful) I tried every head collar etc but the turning point was when a very experienced friend suggested a chifney, it was a game changer. The respect for me was instant, if he misbehaved I had confidence to 'bring him back' quietly, without having to 'rag him about'. It made my confidence increase, which made him realise I was in control. It was the saving of our relationship.

With regard to him cutting in front of you, my horse also did this, I carried a long whip, not to hit him with but just to direct him, it worked well, most times chest height, directing him straight ahead worked but if he started to curl in i would raise it so it was more in his eyeline.

For the record I can now lead my horse in a headcollar even when other horses are tearing about, but that is 3 years of hard work!, I weaned him off the chifney into a normal snaffle, now the headcollar, but if he prats about I'm not afraid to pop the chifney back in

 

[lrw0250]

I had an issue with my daughters 11 hand pony cutting in front and pulling that I had to sort out so she could be lead by a child. What solved it for us was using the end of a long lead rope to helicopter in front of us so if she got too in front of me she got it on the nose - she soon learned to stay next to me as she had the choice to walk nicely or get bopped with the rope, it was up to her! Likewise, we used a rope halter and continually halting and backing up, varying the speed I walked etc. every time she was led for a couple of weeks. I still do it now randomly just to keep her on her toes and it fresh in her mind, so when bringing in, turning out, in the school etc. Obviously you are dealing with a much larger beastie but maybe you need to think of it as a complete change of your way of leading at all times as opposed to just doing groundwork sessions.

 

[CMcC]

Only one thing to add to the good advice you have already been given.

You mention a loaner. All the groundwork/training/handling will not be effective unless you and loaner are using the same methods consistently. If the loaner allows the bargey behaviour or addresses differently the horse will be confused and continue to behave as he wants to as wont understand what is expected.

 

[Caol Ila]

A lot of great advice so far. Bringing in a trainer will be worth the money, because s/he will be able to show you the stuff about timing and body language (yours and the horse's) that you can't easily describe on the internet.

For what it's worth, though, here is a wee thing that came to mind reading your post:

You write, " As soon as he begins to behave I tell him he is being a good boy ect so he knows how he should behave."

Does he really know how he "should" behave? You have to think like a horse. Saying "good boy" to the horse is as useless as reading a Dickens novel to it unless it knows through training what those words mean and it's backed by some kind of reward. Even patting it is useless if the timing doesn't make sense to the horse. The horse learns what the right thing is when he gets a release for doing it (which is how a lot of unwanted behaviour gets trained as well -- horse breaks free, annoying human stops yanking on him and he gets grass). That means you become soft and take away pressure as soon as he does what you want. Giving the halter a yank when the horse is facing you doesn't show it the correct behaviour -- it just confuses it. What are you punishing at that moment? From the perspective of the horse, the behaviour he's being jerked around for is ceasing his attempt to bog off and facing you. This is probably not what you think you're punishing him for.

It sounds like this horse hasn't been taught or at least sees no reason to not push into your space, hence cutting across you to bog off. You have to get him to yield softly and willingly to pressure. The backing up advice given by most of the people on this thread is exactly what I would do too. But like with everything else, timing is key. If you just yank him back with no release or random releases/pressure, then he'll be confused and pi$$ed off. You might need to send him back with a lot of pressure at first, but as soon as he gives you signs of softening, you have to soften immediately. Over time, the amount of pressure required will decrease, until the horse will reverse smooth as silk at the mere suggestion on your part.

There are lots of other exercises you can do to teach the horse that it's in his interest to follow a "soft feel" but you really need someone on the ground with you to show you when to increase pressure and when to back off.

 

[Horsekaren]

Thank you all for the advice
I have been trained how to use the Dually and had a horse trainer out and completely understand it isn't to punish him. When I say a final yank he isn't standing quietly he is facing me deciding where to go next a firm tug he lowers his head and then will walk with me. I defiantly don't just yank him after the situation is under control. When my natural horsemanship trainer came to my yard to teach me she did the same, not circles but a firm tug as he wasn't doing what was asked :/ I hope this isn't incorrect as the last thing I want is to hurt him, I just want him to listen!

I did a lot of ground work making him go back and I suppose I let this slip when he started to behave so I will pick this up again and when he does this next time I suppose it is less about trying to stop him and more about making him understand that is wrong and reward as soon as he is being good.

Myself and my loaner do have different methods, I like the Dually and they are less keen and put him back in a normal head collar, in which he then started to pull off and get away with it and now he will try in the dually as he knows he can get away with it.

The funny thing about him is I don't need to back him up or slow him down normally as he tends to stay at my shoulder or he falls back in which I encourage him forward. He just sees his moment and goes for it

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

You need to insist that the loaner uses the same equipment and techniques that you use. I personally don't like the dually but if I were dealing with someone else's horse, I would use the equipment they provide.
Do you carry a schooling whip? I find that a schooling whip held in front of the horse's chest, in the eyeline, can help to keep the horse back and if the horse and steps too far forward, a tap on the chest reminds him to mind his manners. The key is in the timing, you MUST watch the horse's body language and react accordingly to stop unwanted behaviour.

 

[Horsekaren]

I really love your reply!
I am aware of pressure and release and completely understand this is what the dually is for, but I have never thought of it being the ONLY thing he understands. When he is facing me I haven't thought of it in a manor that he isn't bogging off I see it as a show down and I either stop him or he goes but I suppose if it is a good thing he is facing me the worst thing I can do is tug on the rope, I guess I would then start to push him back until he has stopped prating around.

A lot of great advice so far. Bringing in a trainer will be worth the money, because s/he will be able to show you the stuff about timing and body language (yours and the horse's) that you can't easily describe on the internet.

For what it's worth, though, here is a wee thing that came to mind reading your post:

You write, " As soon as he begins to behave I tell him he is being a good boy ect so he knows how he should behave."

Does he really know how he "should" behave? You have to think like a horse. Saying "good boy" to the horse is as useless as reading a Dickens novel to it unless it knows through training what those words mean and it's backed by some kind of reward. Even patting it is useless if the timing doesn't make sense to the horse. The horse learns what the right thing is when he gets a release for doing it (which is how a lot of unwanted behaviour gets trained as well -- horse breaks free, annoying human stops yanking on him and he gets grass). That means you become soft and take away pressure as soon as he does what you want. Giving the halter a yank when the horse is facing you doesn't show it the correct behaviour -- it just confuses it. What are you punishing at that moment? From the perspective of the horse, the behaviour he's being jerked around for is ceasing his attempt to bog off and facing you. This is probably not what you think you're punishing him for.

It sounds like this horse hasn't been taught or at least sees no reason to not push into your space, hence cutting across you to bog off. You have to get him to yield softly and willingly to pressure. The backing up advice given by most of the people on this thread is exactly what I would do too. But like with everything else, timing is key. If you just yank him back with no release or random releases/pressure, then he'll be confused and pi$$ed off. You might need to send him back with a lot of pressure at first, but as soon as he gives you signs of softening, you have to soften immediately. Over time, the amount of pressure required will decrease, until the horse will reverse smooth as silk at the mere suggestion on your part.

There are lots of other exercises you can do to teach the horse that it's in his interest to follow a "soft feel" but you really need someone on the ground with you to show you when to increase pressure and when to back off.

 

[JillA]

Can I ask what training your natural horsemanship trainer has had? I ask because there are a lot of people who set themselves up as such and they MIGHT have been to a Monty Roberts demo, or once seen Pat Parelli - I am about to go and assess a horse belonging to some local people. They had a NH "trainer" who stood in the stable with said horse and fed it polo mints...........and left. Yours might be brilliant with lots of success stories, or she might not.

 

[Horsekaren]

Can I ask what training your natural horsemanship trainer has had? I ask because there are a lot of people who set themselves up as such and they MIGHT have been to a Monty Roberts demo, or once seen Pat Parelli - I am about to go and assess a horse belonging to some local people. They had a NH "trainer" who stood in the stable with said horse and fed it polo mints...........and left. Yours might be brilliant with lots of success stories, or she might not.

o she was brilliant, not a polo in site lol! she has a huge following in my area and has many success stories, I believe she has her own yard in which she takes troublesome horses in for training.

She figured his personality out instantly, LBI , a real big thinker, take it slow ect I have listened to every thing she told me and tried my best to train him in terms that suit his personality.

It looks as though it is back to the Ground work

 

[Horsekaren]

I did wonder if this muddle in methods was the trigger for all of this starting again. I have insisted they use the dually now, it must feel so different to a normal head collar and having not had him all that long I don't think he is ready to be demoted to a standard head collar until the trust has been built up.

I have carried a whip a couple of times and he has been perfect but again this isn't something I want him to recognize and as soon as I don't have it he takes advantage.

We were doing so well and all of a sudden we have jumped back 5 steps

When you say watch their body language- what would you do when he starts to prat off? would you stop him with the dually using the pressure or let him go, catch him and then make him repeat the task until he doesn't prat about?

You need to insist that the loaner uses the same equipment and techniques that you use. I personally don't like the dually but if I were dealing with someone else's horse, I would use the equipment they provide.
Do you carry a schooling whip? I find that a schooling whip held in front of the horse's chest, in the eyeline, can help to keep the horse back and if the horse and steps too far forward, a tap on the chest reminds him to mind his manners. The key is in the timing, you MUST watch the horse's body language and react accordingly to stop unwanted behaviour.

 

[fburton]

They had a NH "trainer" who stood in the stable with said horse and fed it polo mints...........and left.

Blimey, that doesn't sound like good value for money! What did the trainer say he/she was doing?

 

[supsup]

I think I would do more groundwork/training in a setting where he's less likely to be problematic, e.g. a school with no grass, just to consolidate/refresh your previous groundwork training. Make sure you can start, walk, stop, turn all without ever putting tension on the rope. Your horse should be focussing on you, watch your body and go/stop based on your body language without ever putting tension on the rope. One good way to make the horse more attentive to what you are doing is to lead in one direction, then suddenly turn around (facing towards the horse as you turn) and walk back the way you came. You are effectively changing the side from which you lead your horse when you do that, but it really means they have to pay attention and stop promptly when you stop to turn. I'd also practice just standing without moving, at a safe distance from you (~1m). Every time he moves (into your space), just put him back in his place. I might also train to lead from a position slightly in front of your horse, i.e. never allow his head to go past your shoulder. That makes it impossible for him to turn across in front of you, and so long as the head is at about shoulder level, he still has to stay somewhat to the side of you (less likely to be run over by horse suddenly shooting forward from behind your back). A pretty effective way to keep the horse from going past the level of your shoulder is to slap the end of the rope against your upper body, or even slightly over your shoulder backwards to keep the horse back.

If trying to get to grass is part of what sets him off when leading, I'd cheat and simply put a taped-up muzzle or closed nosenet on his headcollar so he simply can't eat. I've just done that with my horse who is in rehab, and the only place I can long-line him on is the rested field with knee high grass. It was impossible to get any decent work done with him diving down all the time. Greenguard muzzle to the rescue, and problem solved.

But in the end, I'd still say that getting a professional (IH type) out again would probably be the fastest way to tackle the problem. Sometimes it's small slips in timing that make all the difference between confusing the horse and being effective. Having another, trained pair of eyes could be really helpful.

 

[smja]

You say he 'picks his moment' - that means you need to be watching him like a hawk and react as soon as he starts to try to push into you, not bring back the situation once you're already on the back foot.

The minute he moves towards you, you stop him dead, say 'no' firmly, and move him out of your personal space (it is important that you move him out, not move away yourself). Then carry on.

I use the elbow-to-the-neck method for a keen horse that wants to get in front/across me. You walk along normally with the horse, but with your elbow held out at 90 degrees from your body at the front of his neck so that if he moves towards you he gets blocked. I think this is similar to Pearlsasinger's schooling whip approach.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

She figured his personality out instantly, LBI , a real big thinker, take it slow ect I have listened to every thing she told me and tried my best to train him in terms that suit his personality.

Urg... parellispeak.

 

[DabDab]

Urg... parellispeak.

What does it mean?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I did wonder if this muddle in methods was the trigger for all of this starting again. I have insisted they use the dually now, it must feel so different to a normal head collar and having not had him all that long I don't think he is ready to be demoted to a standard head collar until the trust has been built up.

I have carried a whip a couple of times and he has been perfect but again this isn't something I want him to recognize and as soon as I don't have it he takes advantage.

We were doing so well and all of a sudden we have jumped back 5 steps

When you say watch their body language- what would you do when he starts to prat off? would you stop him with the dually using the pressure or let him go, catch him and then make him repeat the task until he doesn't prat about?

I would make sure that I spotted the signs that he was thinking about taking off and divert him with a different movement, sideways/backwards/stop and head down. I use food rewards and find that rattling them in the pocket can work as a distraction, a bit further on in the training. When leading a tricky horse, I make the journey in/out a training/learning opportunity, so not just a simple trip from stable to gate, or vice versa but including various movements, you need to have full control of both the head and the quarters. I don't really understand your comment about the schooling whip. I am not suggesting that you use it as a weapon but as an aid to getting him to do what you ask, just as it can be when you ride. If it works for you- use it! You need to get good habits ingrained into your horse, before you change anything that you do with him to get good manners from him.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

What does it mean?

It stands for left brain introvert but IMO means nothing.

The parelli-ites I knew who liked to classify their horses this way (left/right brain introvert/extrovert) got a bit waylaid by it in some weird, complicated way and stopped just treating their horse as a horse and using simple, effective horsemanship that the horse could understand.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I would make sure that I spotted the signs that he was thinking about taking off and divert him with a different movement, sideways/backwards/stop and head down.

That really is the ultimate timing for correction when training a horse!

 

[little_critter]

You say he 'picks his moment' - that means you need to be watching him like a hawk and react as soon as he starts to try to push into you, not bring back the situation once you're already on the back foot.

The minute he moves towards you, you stop him dead, say 'no' firmly, and move him out of your personal space (it is important that you move him out, not move away yourself). Then carry on.

I use the elbow-to-the-neck method for a keen horse that wants to get in front/across me. You walk along normally with the horse, but with your elbow held out at 90 degrees from your body at the front of his neck so that if he moves towards you he gets blocked. I think this is similar to Pearlsasinger's schooling whip approach.

Agree you have to watch like a hawk...mine pulls to grass and I have tried everything to stop it. The only thing that works is being tuned in and stopping her as the first flicker of a grass thought sparks across her brain. Once she has started to move it's a battle of strength which you will lose.
She is a clever one, she used to speed up to get a little slack in the rope then lunge for grass, I realised what she was doing so never allowed her to get that little head start....then she started briefly hanging back then diving for grass behind me. I swear it's a battle of wits!
The problem is that you can't really reward them for not pulling to grass, the biggest reward they could get (in my girl's eyes anyway) is a mouthful of grass. No reward you can give will trump that grass.
I have also tried firm and fair punishment but it makes no difference. It's like trying to work with a junkie, the grass hit it worth the punishment.