Horse that hates bit contact- trying bitless?

[charleysummer]

Ok I posted about a horse that was napping in the school and being explosive in transitions etc, well I spent a lot of time with him yesterday lunging etc and watching him move as well as riding and the problem seems to be fear of schooling and an absolute hate of bit contact.

When he first came I put him in a french link loose ring snaffle, that did not go down very well as it had a lot of movement in the mouth and he didn't like it at all- I also had left the flash strap off so he could evade it easier thinking it was being nice putting a gentle bit in and letting him have his mouth so he didnt feel trapped . I then put him in a rubber mullen mouth snaffle and although he likes this better, he still pulls against bit contact and speeds up when contact is put on- I hacked him out and instead of being silly and going backwards, sideways and up when asked to stand he just stood fine- until bit contact was put on then he pulled and went forwards, he puts his head in and behind the bit to evade it - also when tacked up he grinds his teeth and has his mouth open.

Teeth have been checked etc, when in the school he works behind the bit and leans, I realised his explosive transitions were just an over reaction to the leg- if i gently touch his sides he will go forward nicely in to a steady trot so got to deaden him to the leg a bit. But as he seems to hate the bit I was considering trying something bitless as I have known horses that just never accept the bit and fight it all the time which is what I can imagine him doing! So if I was to try bitless what would be the best option to try? I know a fair bit about bits and how they work but am totally clueless when it comes to bitless contraptions such as hackamores etc! Are they dressage legal? I know there are other types of bitless but I don't know anything about it, he needs a lot of schooling work so I would want something that I can send precise aids with. I am going to keep with a bit for a little bit and see if he settles but if not I can't see the harm in at least trying bitless.

Thanks for reading, any information appreciated I do love how much you end up learning with new horses!

 

[the watcher]

having looked back at your previous post I think it is possible there is an underlying back problem that you may need to address, it is also possible that this horse was over bitted before you got him so has learned to evade behind the bit. Having taken away the relative security of the gag and allowing to him to use himself properly you have actually opened up a world of choices, and right now he peobably doesn't know what to do with them!

 

[TrasaM]

Your horse sounds just like a school horse I have lessons on. I really feel that he was hurt by the bit so now has no tolerance to any pressure and anticipates pain and goes all tense. He's in a happy mouth but I'm not sure he thinks it's happy for him. I wanted to try a bitless bridle but he's a school horse and they said no. It really upsets me when he goes all tense and rushes as he's such a great horse and try's so hard to get it right. I'd be really interested to know what solution you find.

 

[Archangel]

I won't comment on the bitless scenario because I know nothing about it but just reading your post the horse doesn't accept the bit or leg. These horses are quite tricky because they hit the grumble button and it is very hard for them to find the way back and often they just get worse and worse.

The simple answer is that they have to learn to accept the aids and respond to pressure, even if you decide to go bitless later. A vital building block has been missed out or given minimal attention and you are going to have to go back to basics and unpick all the rubbish.

What I would do with this horse is start on the ground, normal snaffle and cavesson noseband done up correctly but not too tight and just show him very simply how to respond to pressure. It is so hard to explain well (I am sure it must be written down somewhere but have never seen it) much easier to show!

Take the bit rings in your hands and feel for the weight of the bit. Transfer this weight to your elbows and keep it there, your forearms and hands are conduits for this pressure. The horse will feel the pressure and think “hello, what is she up to now” and may resist, open mouth, throw toys, but keep the pressure and follow whatever the horse does with the same pressure at the same time encourage the horse to yield (do not increase the pressure, no pulling, wiggling or forcing) - this is new stuff to him. You are showing him a way to understand, not just respond because it hurts.

Probably the last thing he will try is the yield and suddenly he gives the bit back to you by relaxing his jaw and dropping his head, this is the second you also yield and offer it back to him. The key moment, don’t miss it.. Give him a stoke on the neck and tell him well done. Take the bit rings again and repeat. Most horses (like 80%) will get this very quickly and yield again straight away. This is the start of accepting the bit, he has found something he can respond to positively and once this happens he will be more inclined to listen to more. You can take it further and ask him to lower his head and neck as well.

If you work on this so it is fairly established response and the horse understands this option is there, all he has to do is offer it to you. You will find that when you get on, place your legs gently round his sides and take up the rein, replicate what you used on the ground, the horse will respond in the way he did when you were on the ground.

To my mind, then and only then can the horse begin to start his training and acceptance of the leg may well improve like magic.

I have a feeling I have not explained it well enough, it is such a key thing. I had been riding for years and years before anyone explained it to me. I then had to go back and unpick all my mistakes. The horse never let me forget it!

 

[foster]

why dont you put him in straight bar happy mouth snaffle, which is the bit you rode him in when you tried him and is the bit he was ridden in ireland in with no problems. he passed a vetting recently so shouldnt think he has a back problem. he always seemed to like the softness of happy mouth and there is also nathe bits which all my show jumping horses go well in.

 

[pedilia]

I think Rebel makes a good point, although I am confused over the bit rings part, do you mean hold the bit rings with your hands? i.e with no reins? Just curious.
Doesn't part of accepting a contact involve going forward and taking the bit, then offering it back to you?

I have decided to go back a step with my 4 year old, she has been broken for about 8 weeks and argues constantly about a contact, she is great at going forward off my leg, just reluctant to take a contact, so I am going back to lunging with side reins until she accepts a contact, then will go back to work under saddle.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

Dr cooke. Not dressage legal but really good. X

 

[Miss L Toe]

I have decided to go back a step with my 4 year old, she has been broken for about 8 weeks and argues constantly about a contact, she is great at going forward off my leg, just reluctant to take a contact, so I am going back to lunging with side reins until she accepts a contact, then will go back to work under saddle.

Controversial .............for a young immature just backed equine .......... most people would be happy just to be going forward and in balance at this stage, I can understand why she is arguing!
To me, going back a step is to go back to long reining where the muscles and the mouth can be developed, and get out and about and see the world.

 

[Tickles]

One of the gentlest (assuming equal 'hands' on all) sorts of bitless is a sidepull - simpler than some it is basically something like a headcollar/caveson with rings for reins either side of the nose band part.

You can be a subtle as you like with almost any bit/bitless option... but I'm afraid I don't think the side-pull is dressage-(association)-friendly.

 

[pedilia]

Controversial .............for a young immature just backed equine .......... most people would be happy just to be going forward and in balance at this stage, I can understand why she is arguing!
To me, going back a step is to go back to long reining where the muscles and the mouth can be developed, and get out and about and see the world.

Controversial? Really?

I am not trying to work her in a consistent contact, she argues about any contact with her mouth. Surely better to go back a step (each to their own on what constitutes going back) than to force the issue with her?!!?
She has/is being walked in hand, lunged, hacked and is getting out and seeing the world, all at the pace she is comfortable with, she is not comfortable with her mouth, I'm not ignoring that fact.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Riding bitless means riding properly from your legs and seat into your hand, if you're someone who mostly rides from the hand you'll struggle with bitless. As already mentioned a side-pull is one of the mildest bitless bridles. Since your horse is very sensitive attaching the reins to a headcollar will probably suffice. No bitless bridles are dressage legal.

I don't know you or how you ride, but there's always the possibility that the contact you're used to is unsuitable for this horse and she wants a lighter contact. Sometimes the weight of the reins is enough, especially if you're using rubber reins which can be quite heavy. TBH what you've described with the horses sensitivity and behavior, it sounds as if the horse is alternately backing off from ,then pulling and running away from, pain. I think this partly because she goes better in the milder bit.

As a young or uneducated/unfit horse, are you asking it to maintain an outline for too long? Even a few minutes can be too long for some at first, until they've built up strength in their muscles. If the horse has a back problem as mentioned in another post, this would need to be sorted first.

How are your hands? Unless you have a consistent elastic contact with hands that don't move unless they need to, I can see how you'd have problems with a horse this sensitive. Same goes for a riding position that's slightly wobbly, which would unbalance you both, affecting the contact on the reins.

I hope you manage to get the problem sorted out.

 

[Magister]

Try a Micklem bridle. There is a company that will hire them to you for a week or two. Think they have a facebook page.

 

[Joeb21]

Get his/hers back looked at , was having the same problems that you described, thinking my horse hates the bit, but before i did anything thought i best get his teeth re-checked and his back. He has just had his back looked at and yes he's very sore in the quarters and poll area. then i remembered that he had slipped/fallen while messing around in his field a month earlier.

 

[Sookiebee]

Ok I posted about a horse that was napping in the school and being explosive in transitions etc, well I spent a lot of time with him yesterday lunging etc and watching him move as well as riding and the problem seems to be fear of schooling and an absolute hate of bit contact.

When he first came I put him in a french link loose ring snaffle, that did not go down very well as it had a lot of movement in the mouth and he didn't like it at all- I also had left the flash strap off so he could evade it easier thinking it was being nice putting a gentle bit in and letting him have his mouth so he didnt feel trapped . I then put him in a rubber mullen mouth snaffle and although he likes this better, he still pulls against bit contact and speeds up when contact is put on- I hacked him out and instead of being silly and going backwards, sideways and up when asked to stand he just stood fine- until bit contact was put on then he pulled and went forwards, he puts his head in and behind the bit to evade it - also when tacked up he grinds his teeth and has his mouth open.

Teeth have been checked etc, when in the school he works behind the bit and leans, I realised his explosive transitions were just an over reaction to the leg- if i gently touch his sides he will go forward nicely in to a steady trot so got to deaden him to the leg a bit. But as he seems to hate the bit I was considering trying something bitless as I have known horses that just never accept the bit and fight it all the time which is what I can imagine him doing! So if I was to try bitless what would be the best option to try? I know a fair bit about bits and how they work but am totally clueless when it comes to bitless contraptions such as hackamores etc! Are they dressage legal? I know there are other types of bitless but I don't know anything about it, he needs a lot of schooling

Ok I posted about a horse that was napping in the school and being explosive in transitions etc, well I spent a lot of time with him yesterday lunging etc and watching him move as well as riding and the problem seems to be fear of schooling and an absolute hate of bit contact.

When he first came I put him in a french link loose ring snaffle, that did not go down very well as it had a lot of movement in the mouth and he didn't like it at all- I also had left the flash strap off so he could evade it easier thinking it was being nice putting a gentle bit in and letting him have his mouth so he didnt feel trapped . I then put him in a rubber mullen mouth snaffle and although he likes this better, he still pulls against bit contact and speeds up when contact is put on- I hacked him out and instead of being silly and going backwards, sideways and up when asked to stand he just stood fine- until bit contact was put on then he pulled and went forwards, he puts his head in and behind the bit to evade it - also when tacked up he grinds his teeth and has his mouth open.

Teeth have been checked etc, when in the school he works behind the bit and leans, I realised his explosive transitions were just an over reaction to the leg- if i gently touch his sides he will go forward nicely in to a steady trot so got to deaden him to the leg a bit. But as he seems to hate the bit I was considering trying something bitless as I have known horses that just never accept the bit and fight it all the time which is what I can imagine him doing! So if I was to try bitless what would be the best option to try? I know a fair bit about bits and how they work but am totally clueless when it comes to bitless contraptions such as hackamores etc! Are they dressage legal? I know there are other types of bitless but I don't know anything about it, he needs a lot of schooling work so I would want something that I can send precise aids with. I am going to keep with a bit for a little bit and see if he settles but if not I can't see the harm in at least trying bitless.

Thanks for reading, any information appreciated I do love how much you end up learning with new horses!

work so I would want something that I can

 

[Sookiebee]

I searched the same topic for a reason. I train reining horses for a living. This is the second time I’ve come across this in my horse career. I am curious about this because it’s not something that I’ve been able to “train” out of this particular horse. I’ve come to the conclusion that there are certain times that certain few horses just aren’t bit type horses and you have to go with their flow. They are often very talented horses. And if you believe in it, both horses I’ve known like this have been double whirl horses. My first time experiencing this was my very first horse. She was an auction bought grade mare. Basics nothing fancy. Get on and go type. I learned to ride on this horse. The entire time my dad taught me right and I learned well but she never fully accepted the snaffle. Always gapping her mouth. Then fast forward about 6 years. She was by this time my old mare and I had learned a few things and decided to try a hackemore on her. Well low and behold she suddenly turned into a cruise control sedan. She just didn’t like a bit. Then recently after showing a lot in reining and being accustomed to transitioning bits and starting off slow. I’ve had one mare that just hasn’t taken to a bit. Right from the get go. Teeth and vet checked. Chiropractor and massage. Nothing physical. She just doesn’t like it. Put a bosal or loping hackemore and she’s a different horse. She’s also a double whirl. Some things just can’t be explained. Now I truly believe that some horses aren’t bit horses. Simple as that. Not very often but every once in a while.

 

[paddi22]

Have you tried a biting consultant? French links don't always suit some horses, and some hate rubber bits as they are so chunky.
I had a similar horse once and the contact issue turned out to be a back and is issue. whenever he was asked to work properly and take weight behind, his is would hurt him. I thought it was a biting issue for ages.