Horse that refuses to go into an outline

[Greyhorse1]

As in round into a nice outline.

Sorry I will try and keep this as short as I can.

8 year old mare. Always been mouthy since bitting with a professional. Fave trick is to throw head as high as possible, tongue over bit and tank off. Had bit consultant and settled on a happy tongue with no movement. She hates joints or anything that isn’t still. I’ve trialled many bits and she’s no different.

Well mannered in most respects, light enough in the hand,turns on a sixpence and does exactly as I ask eg transitions/rein back/bending just with her nose poked out.
Back, saddle, physio, vet all fine. No lameness, ulcers (been scoped), had wolf teeth out as a precaution etc. Ive also had a bute trial so I’m confident that she is not in pain. I’ve also tried treeless and bareback pads incase it was saddle but still no change.
Tried micklem and anatomical bridle, no change.

Currently dressage training and despite moving actively from behind and using all of the techniques given, leg to hand etc she will not drop into a contact. She will eventually go to some sort of vertical however instantly pops back up the second something catches her eye or she is worried.

In the show ring she throws her head up and tanks around. She looks like some version of an ugly giraffe when doing so and as a result we are loosing out on lots of placings. I really want to show but she’s not no hope unless she “comes round”

She works nicely in a Pessoa and also equiami. She also lunges freely nicely.
I’ve had about 6 instructors, none have cracked her and all unanimously think it’s a behavioural issue and stems from tension.

So is there anything I am missing here?
I’m tempted to put her in a pelham to show, is this the wrong approach or should I do it ‘properly’?!

 

[be positive]

Have any of the instructors got on and tried to get a feel for her? if not I would be either looking for someone that will or possibly find a trainer you trust who you can send her to for a short while, in my experience long term tension that is causing this type of problem can often be worked through by a decent pro without the need for short cuts, they can then work on the partnership to get you on track, it may be that you lack the experience to get her through this whereas a pro will be used to riding many different types and can find the key more easily than you will.

Putting her in a pelham to show may help fix her in the outline you think you want but it will not solve the fundamental issue of a tense horse that is not performing at it's best and if a judge gets on they will instantly know this so long term you will not be gaining anything.

I am not sure using a pessoa is beneficial for a horse that is reluctant to take a contact and it may be doing more harm than good using either gadget on her.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I was going to say has one of the instructors ridden her? I think if your having an issue getting a good instructor to have a sit really can help fix things.

 

[Mule]

I think engaging the inside hind leg is the answer. When mine has interesting things to look about at, he also emulates a giraffe.
I find a leg yield or putting him in shoulder fore results in him stretching in to the contact. It seems to be a physical reaction that doesn't rely on his attention.
I also get that you can't go about doing lateral work the whole time. I also recommend having an instructor ride him.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Forgot to say what sort of schooling do you do?

I have Arabs so they tend to want to run about with there head in the sky, they get easily distracted and can be tense, I have found lateral work really helps them focus and it helps with suppleness so that then helps them stay in a nice outline as they find it easier.

 

[albeg]

Agree with having your instructor ride her.

What cracked it for my gelding was "showing" him, once he was going forward, but still giraffe-y. I was on him, my instructor took my reins on the ground, took a contact, but "placed" him where she wanted him to be and released the pressure when he responded. Once he got that in halt, she asked me to ask him to walk on, then repeated it in trot. Then I took the reins back and we repeated it with her alongside us, so she could help with a bit of downward pressure if he started to giraffe. We were quite unconventional at first, with hands at odd angles to get him to take the contact, but he's come on a lot.

 

[ycbm]

Is very difficult to comment without seeing her. Do you have any video that you could share?

She sounds very like the ex racer I have been retraining for two months now. He was very locked in the shoulders and back and he will pop up his head at any excuse, especially through the turns. . Like Mule, I find some of the most successful exercises are leg yield and shoulder in/fore.

 

[blitznbobs]

If you eliminate everything else it is either that her conformation doesn’t allow for it or pilot error... it is usually this or pain some tendon issues are not helped by bute trial only nerve blocks will rule it out but usually it’s pilot error I’m afraid ... would cdj or mr Hester have the same issues?

 

[DabDab]

Hmm, hard to say really, but it does sound like she has never actually learnt to lower her head on command (i don't mean going round, literally just lowering the head) when she was first backed...? So is missing that 'seeking the bit' piece of the puzzle. (Though I'm guessing massively as it's a little hard to tell from your description).

Might be worth trying an instructor with a completely different approach from what you're used to - maybe someone strong on the biomechanics side of life?

 

[albeg]

Hmm, hard to say really, but it does sound like she has never actually learnt to lower her head on command (i don't mean going round, literally just lowering the head) when she was first backed...? So is missing that 'seeking the bit' piece of the puzzle. (Though I'm guessing massively as it's a little hard to tell from your description).

Might be worth trying an instructor with a completely different approach from what you're used to - maybe someone strong on the biomechanics side of life?

This is a much more concise way of putting what I was trying to explain!

 

[Mule]

If you eliminate everything else it is either that her conformation doesn’t allow for it or pilot error... it is usually this or pain some tendon issues are not helped by bute trial only nerve blocks will rule it out but usually it’s pilot error I’m afraid ... would cdj or mr Hester have the same issues?

That's something I often ask myself when things aren't going right for me. Could my instructor do it? If the answer is yes (which it always is ), I realise I'm the problem and the beast is just reacting to my aids. It keeps things in perspective for me.

 

[tallyho!]

Have you had many "2nd opinions" on saddle/teeth etc? What may be ok by one person's opinion, may throw up some light by another's. I have often found that when I have a problem, I ask as many people as possible. Everyone's experience is different and what may be one persons answer may be another's problem if you see what I mean?

I had problems with an sjr once and went to a master saddler - said all was fine. I knew it wasn't so went to another. Again, nothing wrong. I knew in the pit of my stomach, so I went to back specialist. All my suspicions were true... it WAS the saddle. How could these professionals who were so called specialists in horses back health not see?? I was very cross at the time - mostly at myself - that I'd put my beloved horse through all that. New saddle = new horse.

Anyway, could have been a pointless example, it could be any thing with your horse as no one can see - only your description but what's your gut feeling?

 

[still standing]

I had a similar problem with my mare when I first got her, really liked to throw her head up, so much so that she had a large muscle on the underside of her neck and very little top line and so she physically could not 'round'. Although you say your horse goes nicely in lunging aids, if her default position is to throw her head up, could she be uncomfortable trying to round down? It took some time for the underside muscle to soften with my mare and the top of her neck to start to lengthen.

After that, with the help of a very experienced trainer, I spent many more weeks encouraging my horse to take the contact down, first in walk (plenty of the usual turns, circles, etc) and then in trot. We would start in halt, then light leg on and a constant light but firm contact on the reins until her head and neck would relax down into the contact. Having someone on the ground to check that she was not either poking (too much) or over-bending was very important at this point as she was learning the 'correct' feel. Then holding that position, I would ask for a transition to walk... and so on into trot. Lots of transitions so that she learned what was being asked and also very important to return to halt-walk when tension crept in and she would throw her head up again.

It took a lot of patience and time but has paid off as I have a horse who now very rarely reverts to being a giraffe and is going correctly & working from behind instead, far better for her long-term soundness too. If you have someone who can help you to work on those basics it should be well worth it in the long run.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

My mare also had a lot of muscle in the wrong places from throwing her head up and generally being tense when ridden. It’s taken me a year of hacking and schooling (working on straightness and suppleness) where having a contact and working in an outline have been at the bottom of my list of concerns but she is now starting to seek the bit all on her own. I guess because she now has the correct muscle and because she trusts me.

I’m a bit pathetic and soft when it comes to my horse but I much prefer the idea of gently encouraging something from my mare than forcing it. I asked on here a few months ago about lunging aids cause I got myself in a tiz about contact and outline and comparing myself to others but we’ve managed it without any gadgets!

You’ll get there, maybe see if someone can take videos every now and then so you can see your progress.

 

[tristar]

take off all the gadgets forget about ``getting the back end working`` and go large no small school figures ride forwards within the balance of the horse, or in this case allow the horse to find its balance within a slower trot, its sounds like a balance problem, too much dressaging i find horses like this need to go forward from a soft asking supporting leg, into a hand that allows them to reach forwards and round the back, then find the place of comfort and relax into submission, but i find its a very subtle thing that has nothing to do with force or stronger bits,but. also the correct seat of the rider

 

[Hallo2012]

take off all the gadgets forget about ``getting the back end working`` and go large no small school figures ride forwards within the balance of the horse, or in this case allow the horse to find its balance within a slower trot, its sounds like a balance problem, too much dressaging i find horses like this need to go forward from a soft asking supporting leg, into a hand that allows them to reach forwards and round the back, then find the place of comfort and relax into submission, but i find its a very subtle thing that has nothing to do with force or stronger bits,but. also the correct seat of the rider

whilst this is the ideal way, and will work on an un-spoilt horse..............on something with a large amount of tension and negative muscle memory its simply not going to get any form of correct work for long enough to build any correct muscle or habits.

OP you need to go to a good trainer, who produces horses you would like to get on and ride, who will get on and ride yours and probably pay for her to go there for a week or two.
its impossible to re-school horses like this over the internet but suffice it to say it wont be sweetness and light, as you change the goal posts so she will challenge that and there will be ugly moments and less than ideal moments but sometimes you have to be very blunt to show them the right answer. no force but you will need to have strength in your convictions and know when to hold and when to give.

 

[tristar]

but thats just it you need to ride in the` ìdeal`way to achieve the ideal outline in any horse spoilt or not tense or not

`it won`t be sweetness and light` `there will be ugly moments` and being `very blunt` sounds utterly frightful!!!!!!!

there are no` goalposts,` we are not playing football this is a horse that needs time , patience and understanding

 

[Pearlsasinger]

but thats just it you need to ride in the` ìdeal`way to achieve the ideal outline in any horse spoilt or not tense or not

`it won`t be sweetness and light` `there will be ugly moments` and being `very blunt` sounds utterly frightful!!!!!!!

there are no` goalposts,` we are not playing football this is a horse that needs time , patience and understanding

I agree!

If the rider consistently sits well, holds their hands correctly, with 'give' from the elbows, and uses leg and seat/weight aids sympathetically, the horse will respond correctly, as far as it is physically able. It will certainly take time to build the correct musculature but there should not be 'ugly moments'. Both horse and rider are supposed to enjoy the experience!

 

[ycbm]

I asked for video because it would have helped us to give an informed answer to this poster. As it stands, none of us know whether it needs sympathetic riding or someone to say 'no you bloody well aren't going to stick your head in my face'. There are horses of both types and a whole range in between.

As for goal posts, they come with goals. Like many people, I find working towards a goal a productive thing to do with horses. And when they achieve one goal, you move the goalposts further out and train towards those.

If a horse has been trained, or simply allowed, to go in the wrong way for a long time, then they won't necessarily produce correct work simply because the rider sits correctly. And I'm not sure it's possible to ensure that they 'enjoy' the experience of someone telling them they have it all wrong and need to change.

But I suspect most of the argument in the last three posts is more about differences in terminology than true differences in opinion about how to train a horse like this.

What H2012 certainly has right is that it can't be done without seeing, and preferably feeling, what is going on.

...

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of advising an unknown person on a horse of unknown schooling that "ugly" moments are likely in the future progress of their schooling. I'm concerned that it could be misinterpreted to accept, or justify, training methods which aren't fair or desirable for the horse.

I'm also inclined to think H2012 (and others) suggestion that the OP needs a good (really good) instructor to answer her question, is entirely good advice.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If a horse has been trained, or simply allowed, to go in the wrong way for a long time, then they won't necessarily produce correct work simply because the rider sits correctly. And I'm not sure it's possible to ensure that they 'enjoy' the experience of someone telling them they have it all wrong and need to change.


...

Which is why the change should be encouraged gradually in order to avoid 'ugly moments' and forcing the horse into a particular shape.

 

[ycbm]

Which is why the change should be encouraged gradually in order to avoid 'ugly moments' and forcing the horse into a particular shape.

H 2012 specifically said 'no force'.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

H 2012 specifically said 'no force'.

Which was something of a contraction, as H2012 also said in response to tristar's advice to throw away all gadgets:


whilst this is the ideal way, and will work on an un-spoilt horse..............on something with a large amount of tension and negative muscle memory its simply not going to get any form of correct work for long enough to build any correct muscle or habits.

I agree with tristar, for the reason that I gave above, and disagree with H2012

 

[DabDab]

Which was something of a contraction, as H2012 also said in response to tristar's advice to throw away all gadgets:


whilst this is the ideal way, and will work on an un-spoilt horse..............on something with a large amount of tension and negative muscle memory its simply not going to get any form of correct work for long enough to build any correct muscle or habits.

I agree with tristar, for the reason that I gave above, and disagree with H2012

Personally I didn't read it like that. I read H2012 responding to the phrasing used by Tristar, which when read a certain way, seems to be advocating just letting out the reins and wanging the horse around the arena until it decides on a better frame for itself. I kind of know what T is getting at, but the 'don't ride the back end' comment is unfortunate.

I agree with ycbm - I think you're all discussing the semantics of what you're saying, rather than the thing itself.

In terms of the ugly moments comment I think H2012 was just referring to the OP's horse, it that there is no way to magically make it look like a show horse - it will go through several transitional 'ugly' patches first. Her response to Tristar was quite separate in her post.

 

[Greyhorse1]

Sorry it has taken me forever to come back to this post. I have read all the replies and appreciate all advice.

The horse really is a stubborn type. She is opinionated and I do think a lot of the problem is her attitude. I had lessons from an experienced dressage coach and judge for nearly two years but the outline part has never come. We achieved ‘connection’ as in she is listening to me and doing as I ask quite sweetly however is not coming any more round than this.
I switched instructors twice more with no results and recently aquired instructor number 4 with whom some progress has been made but he is very expensive and I can only afford one lesson per month so everything is slow going.

I have had the saddle checked twice in 6 months, dentist then vet to sedate and check a second time a month later, vet out, veterinary physio, mctimeny practitioner and various other instructors etc. I’ve also had a bitting expert fit her bridle and fit. She is in a simple snaffle and caveson with an occasional grackle for faster rides. No gadgets except like I said occasional Pessoa use which a few people thought would show her the way.

I admit I am not the most experienced of schooling riders having mainly bombed around for most of my life however every instructor has said my hands are light and still enough but that the horse won’t accept the contact correctly. None of them have said I’m an awful rider although I’m sure a pro could get a better tune out of her than I. I don’t really have the funds to send her away. I have not had anyone else ride her and all of my instructors have been too big to get on.

My passion lies in showing and dressage. She is fine for prelim and local level but cannot progress further without appearances changing. Obviously I love the horse and want her to be happy but at the same time it’s the last small piece of her becoming something much more special which is extremely frustrating. She has not been rushed, I’ve been messing around for years!

I am happy to send videos to anyone if they want to pm me although I would rather not post them publicly.

 

[MrsMurs]

Ingredients as follows : time and patience 🤣

Have you looked at Art2ride, chap named Will Faber?
He gives some very interesting groundwork excercises to encourage the horse to stretch down and lift the back, these can then be progressed to riding excercises.

I’ve tried them and found them to be really good, particularly at relaxing the horse before ridden work and encouraging them to seek a contact.

 

[albeg]

Getting an instructor to ride her won't necessarily get a better tune out of her, but it will give them a feel for what you are working with.

Stubborn can be worked with, with mine stubbornness was mostly lack of understanding and weakness. Long reining/lungeing off two reins helped him too.

 

[ycbm]

aquired instructor number 4 with whom some progress has been made but he is very expensive and I can only afford one lesson per month so everything is slow going.

I think you have probably hit the nail on the head a bit here. You have an instructor who you make progress with, but that progress stalls in between lessons.

Either he is not giving you enough advice and exercises to keep the progress happening between lessons, or there is something about your riding that only happens when the instructor is there or his words are still ringing in your ears.

Can you get your lessons videoed and rewatch them, if you don't already?

The risk with taking advice from an internet forum who can't feel the horse or see it in the flesh is that you will try one person's ideas, then another, meanwhile undoing what the trainer you have found who is creating progress has achieved.

Can you identify what it is that stops you doing more of the same thing that creates progress in your lesson when the lesson has ended?

 

[Mule]

Sorry it has taken me forever to come back to this post. I have read all the replies and appreciate all advice.

The horse really is a stubborn type. She is opinionated and I do think a lot of the problem is her attitude. I had lessons from an experienced dressage coach and judge for nearly two years but the outline part has never come. We achieved ‘connection’ as in she is listening to me and doing as I ask quite sweetly however is not coming any more round than this.
I switched instructors twice more with no results and recently aquired instructor number 4 with whom some progress has been made but he is very expensive and I can only afford one lesson per month so everything is slow going.

I have had the saddle checked twice in 6 months, dentist then vet to sedate and check a second time a month later, vet out, veterinary physio, mctimeny practitioner and various other instructors etc. I’ve also had a bitting expert fit her bridle and fit. She is in a simple snaffle and caveson with an occasional grackle for faster rides. No gadgets except like I said occasional Pessoa use which a few people thought would show her the way.

I admit I am not the most experienced of schooling riders having mainly bombed around for most of my life however every instructor has said my hands are light and still enough but that the horse won’t accept the contact correctly. None of them have said I’m an awful rider although I’m sure a pro could get a better tune out of her than I. I don’t really have the funds to send her away. I have not had anyone else ride her and all of my instructors have been too big to get on.

My passion lies in showing and dressage. She is fine for prelim and local level but cannot progress further without appearances changing. Obviously I love the horse and want her to be happy but at the same time it’s the last small piece of her becoming something much more special which is extremely frustrating. She has not been rushed, I’ve been messing around for years!

I am happy to send videos to anyone if they want to pm me although I would rather not post them publicly.

It shouldn't be taking years. It may be that the instructors aren't telling you exactly what to do. (They should be doing this, if they haven't you will have to ask)
Some of them won't use constructive criticism or just can't explain things well. The best riders in the world can't necessarily teach. Teaching is a skill.

I used to have lessons with a Grand Prix rider, I've now had two with someone who competes at medium. I've progressed more in those two lessons than I thought possible. The difference is the new instructor can explain things well.

 

[Palindrome]

What breed is she? Can she go comfortably on the vertical or does she struggle due to her conformation (can you fit your fist under her jaw between the jaw bones)?

Is the problem the poking out her nose or throwing her head?

Is she raising her back or hollowing? Do you do any lateral work? The only sure way to raise their back is through lateral work. You could try turn on the forehand on foot to start with, she should slightly bend her neck towards you and as you ask her to step under and out with her inside hind legs, she should raise her back just behind the wither and lower her head.

I would say overall forget about the contact and instead get her moving around your leg, turning on the forehand and on the hind (pirouettes); once she is very responsive to that she will lower her neck and head and allow you to have a contact.