Horse throwing tantrums- how to deal with it?

[BethH]

For what it's worth I have to agree with Kerilli, I really have gone through hell with my horse - I took the well meaning advice from friends about how he was playing me up and trying it on and I had to show him who was in charge, I was told to wack him when he reared and dominate him to prove I was in charge of him - I have to say this is really not my style and makes me deeply uncomfortable when horses are gracious enough to allow you to put a lump of metal in their mouths and sit on their backs but he was a total nightmare so I decided to try it.

Luckily I was in the school when I decided to take him on, well I lost! He reared higher every time I wacked him, went over backwards and I was incredible luckily that he twisted away so as not to land on me when I flew off backwards with him, the thing is he is such a lovely character that I knew straight away i had just got it incredibly wrong and there was no way I could build a relationship of trust with him unless I found another way, I then decided to ignore said advice of more experienced horsemen and bought Perfect Manners and a couple of other books and got some decent lessons in groundwork training. I have had Ryan for 9years now he is still tricky but I have learned alot, the most important lesson I think is that there is always a reason for his behaviour and it is never based on human logic!

 

[paddi22]

Exactly, different approaches work for different horses.

That's why i like the long lining for rears, it allows you to be objective and analytical when faced with the rearing situations and frees you from your stream of consciousness survival flow when you're on board ( eg oh sh¨t he's going up, is he balanced, am i balanced, is he coming down, is he falling back etc)

I realised with my lad that he couldn't handle me being completely passive when he reared. He almost felt paniced at what to do next and would go up and up again unless i reacted. i also learn that punishment when he went up didn't work as is just made him worse. The only thing that worked for him was flexing, but with another horse it helped me discover pushing him harder was the way through it and a roar and a smack was the way to go.

It also helped me analyse behaviours before and after the rears that i hadn't picked up on before. One lad braces his neck to left and then goes up then after the rear he plunges right and always spins right.

I find this stuff really useful as it helps you when you are back on board. I think analsying from the safety of the ground is invaluable and gives you the freedom to try different approaches without the danger of the horse flipping back on you.

 

[Sandstone1]

Honestly I don't think things like smacking him with the girth are going to help! Go back to basics, and try possibly free schooling before riding.

Well said! Smacking him with the girth really not going to help!

 

[Kokopelli]

Just a little update- rode tonight and was passive throughout rearing. The first time he went up quite high which was worrying then second was just a little hop and he didn't do anymore rears. He then reverted to putting his head between his knees and rodeoing round the arena. After abot half a lap he got bored then worked very nicely and even did some baby half passes.

Which is most likely why this horse is like it is in the first place......

Totally agree, although I think he probably threw the odd buck or little rear every now and again I think he has been made worse by this attitude.

Exactly, different approaches work for different horses.

That's why i like the long lining for rears, it allows you to be objective and analytical when faced with the rearing situations and frees you from your stream of consciousness survival flow when you're on board ( eg oh sh¨t he's going up, is he balanced, am i balanced, is he coming down, is he falling back etc)

I realised with my lad that he couldn't handle me being completely passive when he reared. He almost felt paniced at what to do next and would go up and up again unless i reacted. i also learn that punishment when he went up didn't work as is just made him worse. The only thing that worked for him was flexing, but with another horse it helped me discover pushing him harder was the way through it and a roar and a smack was the way to go.

It also helped me analyse behaviours before and after the rears that i hadn't picked up on before. One lad braces his neck to left and then goes up then after the rear he plunges right and always spins right.

I find this stuff really useful as it helps you when you are back on board. I think analsying from the safety of the ground is invaluable and gives you the freedom to try different approaches without the danger of the horse flipping back on you.

I do want to try long lining just worried about the other issues like kicking out, bucking and bombing. I suppose if I give it a go back protector, hat and be very spacially aware of him so I can jump out the way when I know.

Well said! Smacking him with the girth really not going to help!

As I said previously it was a one off thing done on his shoulder not massively hard. He has zero respect for people and that has instilled a bit of respect for me, since doing it he hasn't bitten me or lifted a leg to me once so obviously it has helped. It's not like I beat the crap out of him.

 

[kerilli]

Good to hear that he gave up the rearing so quickly, hope he gives up the broncing quickly too.
I would be very wary of long-reining a horse who kicks out and bucks. I am not a fan of it... and can think of two very good experienced people who got put in a coma when long-reining (horse ran backwards and gave them both barrels).
Just a quick response to those who are against the 'totally passive' approach - having thought further about it, I think I try to be passive (i.e. not confrontational/demanding, with that sort), but also very reassuring. If they are in a mental tizzy, it's about calming them down enough that they start THINKING again instead of just (over)reacting... call me a coward, but a 1/2 tonne flight animal in that frame of mind is not safe to be on or around...

Oh, and as for smacking him with something for biting... Bravo. I'd do the same. They must NEVER think biting is acceptable. There has to be respect for the puny human, as TS puts it! They're allowed to scowl, or even snap teeth, swish tail, they're allowed to give me a warning so that I know they're unhappy and I can do something about it, but biting is a total no-no... and, bluntly, HE is not allowed to discipline YOU like that, as that's what it is in horse terms.

BethH puts it perfectly: "the most important lesson I think is that there is always a reason for his behaviour and it is never based on human logic!"
Yes, hear hear. It's easy to get anthropomorphic. Horses do NOT reason the way humans do... some of the justifications I hear for horse behaviour make me boggle.

 

[Kokopelli]

Definitely think I'll give long lining a miss I don't think it will end well.

Totaly agree though, you need to get the horse out of 'flight mode' before you can do anything with them, the passive riding through the rearing has worked an absolute treat so fingers crossed the broncing stops soon as well.

 

[kerilli]

what do you do when he broncs, out of interest?

 

[Kokopelli]

Hold onto the neck strap and wait for him to stop then carry on schooling. I try very hard not to catch him in the mouth but occasionally if I'm not quick enough to grab the neck strap I'll get his mouth which makes the situation much worse but that hasn't happened often.

 

[kerilli]

Ah, ok. What does he do if you pull his head up? Must admit I'm not brave enough to leave their head down when they're broncing, in case they really go for it... I give a pull to get their head up and then send them on, but if he overreacts horribly to a pull, fair enough.

 

[racingdemon]

i haven't read all the way through, but just wanted to echo the do nothing approach.... i have a mare atm, who when she first arrived would try anything to get you out of the saddle (rearing, bucking, whipping around you name it & she tried it) When she wasn't doing that she would plant herself & stick her head in a perfect rollkur style shape (despite me being sat there without holding the reins) but, she realised very very quickly that nothing she did got a reaction, i stayed in the plate, just sat quietly, and gradually she stopped being a challenge, one day i sat for 40minutes until she decided to walk on again!

she's as sweet as a nut now, you still have to ask gently for new things, but she has so much more confidence in herself, she just hates being put under pressure she can't manage, but in giving her the confidence that whatever she does it's calm & quiet, she can accept new things & is loving her work..... the transformation is huge!!

slowly slowly catchy monkey!

 

[Goldenstar]

What happens when you lead him from another horse ?

 

[Kokopelli]

If you pull his head up he fly bucks and they're so hard to sit on. I give him quite a loose rein when he does it and he gets so confused and unbalanced he stops fairly quickly.

It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if there is another horse but when we hack we go with someone else for safety reasons.

 

[kerilli]

So... You see a difference between 'broncing' & 'fly bucking'... ? Can you drive him through the bucking? I am never passive about bucking, I think it's more dangerous than rearing.

 

[Kelpie]

So... You see a difference between 'broncing' & 'fly bucking'... ? Can you drive him through the bucking? I am never passive about bucking, I think it's more dangerous than rearing.

Not meaning to thread-jack but just curious about this as I have one (a youngster) whose not adverse to a bronk/ buck...... so far I've gone the passive route, as it's only happened in situations that have been a bit "high energy" for her (introducing canter work out hacking/ little tissy on her first hack out, etc).... so would you "never say never" about being passive?/ how situation specific do you see it, etc? (btw, by passive here, I guess I don't mean do absolutely nothing - so ask the horse to do something else, be calm in yourself, etc - just not punish or put more energy into the situation....)

 

[Goldenstar]

So... You see a difference between 'broncing' & 'fly bucking'... ? Can you drive him through the bucking? I am never passive about bucking, I think it's more dangerous than rearing.

I completely agree I would much rather take on a rearer than a bucker.

 

[siennamum]

I completely agree I would much rather take on a rearer than a bucker.

Me too. Strange how there is so much hostility to rearing really, people are forgiving of a high spirited buck I suppose. I'm not as it happens, a buck can really catch you out and get you fired off a shoulder. Mine is long in the back, loose in the back and really uses himself over a fence, he has always snaked his head when landing, which I reprimand him about (midly) also wouldn't ignore/indulge bucking.

 

[wench]

Different things work for different horses. My big TB, Henry was a real drama queen, and often prone to teddys coming out of the pram when we didnt get our own way, mainly when we didn't feel like doing any work.

However, he did not rear or buck - probably as this would expend to much energy.

We went through a phase of having a tantrum in the school if something new had appeared in the corner (a new jump wing, or a pot of fake flowers that weren't there yesterday). He would wind himself up into a blind tizz... I'm not going anywhere near that scary pot of flowers its going to eat me etc... However if you gave him a smack with the whip it brought him back to his senses, and behaved normally.

 

[kerilli]

Not meaning to thread-jack but just curious about this as I have one (a youngster) whose not adverse to a bronk/ buck...... so far I've gone the passive route, as it's only happened in situations that have been a bit "high energy" for her (introducing canter work out hacking/ little tissy on her first hack out, etc).... so would you "never say never" about being passive?/ how situation specific do you see it, etc? (btw, by passive here, I guess I don't mean do absolutely nothing - so ask the horse to do something else, be calm in yourself, etc - just not punish or put more energy into the situation....)

I think Koko and I may be using the same words for different things, that's what I wanted to check. I even asked some fb/HHO friends this morning to check what they mean by 'fly buck' and 'bronc', as I wasn't positive we were all on the same page!
Okay, my meanings and what I do.
'humping' - a really arched back, head down and overenthusiastic very big canter, not going forward enough (but NOT on the spot), usually high jinks only (NOT attempting to get you off, just feeling a bit too fresh), typical of a clipped horse on a cold windy day! I drive on and pull head up (usually only takes 1 pull) because it might turn into...
'broncing' proper bucks, maybe on the spot (which makes them far harder to stay on), proper rodeo stylee, often involves twisting, really trying to get you off. Head is down, back arched (or vertical!), horse really going for it.
This I always try to stop asap, pull head up sharply and then ride forwards. Or, if it was really really bad, halt, pat, get off, then check everything... has girth pinched or something? Check because I really don't want to have to stay on that again! Then either lunge briefly to ensure bucks have gone, or get back on and continue and hope they have.
'Fly bucks' are usually in a straight line in canter, just horse having fun 'kicking up his heels', not particularly unseating at all, unless you're very unlucky or insecure.
There's also those little sulky stroppy little bunny hops behind, when you ask for canter, say, which I just ignore (but check saddle, back etc).
Give me a rearer (but not a flipper, obv) any day. no fan of buckers, have seen too many very very nasty falls. Seen a vid of a lady getting bucked off onto sleepers round manege and paralysed.

 

[ihatework]

And I think the moral of the story is that people have different definitions of what constitues a problematic buck / rear and that how you deal with it is completely dependant on the horse and the situation.

Two memorable rearing horses in the past for me ...

One an intermediate eventer, german bred, very nappy but athletic with it. Never bucked but would randomly plant and rear full height. That one was a passive horse. I'd face him the way I wanted to go and sit there until he gave up, memorably for approximately 20 minutes, clipped and mid winter in the pouring rain, until he was shivering uncontrollably and gave in ... that was the last time the bugger tried it on ironically.

Another that was less athletic but just naughty, and would be quicker to spin, and would do this as much as you would let happen. That one was actively chased and always gave up pretty quickly, the more you got after him the better he was to the point of then not having an issue.

To bucking horses ...

Last horse I owned rarely bucked, maybe a 2-3 times a year, but when he did it was a full on rodeo and I'd often fall. That one was a sock in the chops (and not half measures) the moment you felt him thinking about it, if you stopped it quickly you were fine. If you didn't get the warning you were on the floor.

Current horse, if feeling well, bucks loads! Squeaks, humps etc. Never unseated and on the whole just sit there and let him go forwards. Usually calling him some semi affecionate, semi- rude names! Will occasionally give him an 'oi' or a 'no' if he is overstepping the mark.

 

[paddi22]

absolutely agree, people would be horrified when i'd ride my rearer, but i think it's safer than broncing,. The worst are those 'whiplash' style bucks that come out of nowhere.

Sounds like a very difficult horse with serious problems. If he was mine I'd cut all riding and restart him completely from scratch, somethings gone wrong down the line with his education somewhere. There's very few bad horses who just throw tantrums, he's communicating his unhappiness.

 

[dafthoss]

So glad I read other people prefer rearers as well was begginning to think I was alone, obviously not the blind panick over backwards type but those with self preservation I much prefer to a bucker.

As for definitions of fly bucking etc, I call kicking out at the leg, normally only one sided fly bucks, bronching head between knees lifitng front then back and bucking when just the back end comes up.

With mine I tend to ignore fly bucking as its normally when he is cross about being made to work any attempt to correct it normally results in full on strop where as you can coax him out of it and get him to do as you want if your quietly consistent, bucking is normally a high spirited thing so only told off for when it gets too much and bronching gets his head pulled up sharpish and sent forwards. Rearing is best dealt with by quietly making him face the object he doesnt want to go past/through until he gives in although have on others used the spin them method as it had scared its rider by going up and knew she would now back down if he threatened to go up so she had to know how to prevent the rear in the first place.

 

[PrillyD]

My 22 y.o tb x is a nightmare for tantrums- think she would be happiest just getting to gallop everywhere. She jogs, swings her arse to the left (we have 3ft ditches along our hacking route which she's put me in 3 times in the last year!!) she'll bunny hop and lock her neck. She spins and tries cantering sideways. On the ground however, she's the best behaved horse in the world. I think she has mental issues rather than physical as she's been checked over by physios, sadlers, vets, etc etc time and time again and some days when life is chilled, she wouldnt say boo to a goose. I've had her 13 years now and she is 10000000% better than she was as a 9 y.o. Still, gets me round a xc course quickly and she's in her element. Frustrating at times (quite often) but wouldn't change her for the world (except the ditch part)

 

[kerilli]

PrillyD, I have a tb mare who is the same. Although normally I absolutely abhor their use in 99% of cases, a very loose pair of draw reins somehow works a miracle on her brain. It is as if it makes mental tramlines and she relaxes within them, most odd. Stops the bum-swinging (dangerous towards ditches or cars!) and general hysteria. I only used them for hacking on her and they made her a lot safer to take out!

 

[PrillyD]

Interesting, thanks may just try that!!

 

[giveitago]

remember to assess the food intake too. mine improved immensly when we took out the sugars and cereals.

24/7 turnout a must and some NH type ground manners will work wonders.

and a whole heap of patience!

 

[Kokopelli]

Not the best news, owner who hasn't seen him in a while has said there is definitely an improvement but she is really considering having him pts. I totally understand the reasoning behind this as he is 14.2 and no way would I let a kid get anywhere near him atm and she has said she can't gurantee she will be able to keep as a companion all his life and doesn't want him falling into wrong hands (i.e a kid getting on him and having a nasty fall.)

We have to spring to work it out so fingers crossed he continues improving.

We're very careful what food he has, good turnout with not too rich grazing 24/7 and he has recently started having a magnesium based calmer as it has helped a little which makes me think he did have a slight magnesium deficiency.

I think Koko and I may be using the same words for different things, that's what I wanted to check. I even asked some fb/HHO friends this morning to check what they mean by 'fly buck' and 'bronc', as I wasn't positive we were all on the same page!
Okay, my meanings and what I do.
'humping' - a really arched back, head down and overenthusiastic very big canter, not going forward enough (but NOT on the spot), usually high jinks only (NOT attempting to get you off, just feeling a bit too fresh), typical of a clipped horse on a cold windy day! I drive on and pull head up (usually only takes 1 pull) because it might turn into...
'broncing' proper bucks, maybe on the spot (which makes them far harder to stay on), proper rodeo stylee, often involves twisting, really trying to get you off. Head is down, back arched (or vertical!), horse really going for it.
This I always try to stop asap, pull head up sharply and then ride forwards. Or, if it was really really bad, halt, pat, get off, then check everything... has girth pinched or something? Check because I really don't want to have to stay on that again! Then either lunge briefly to ensure bucks have gone, or get back on and continue and hope they have.
'Fly bucks' are usually in a straight line in canter, just horse having fun 'kicking up his heels', not particularly unseating at all, unless you're very unlucky or insecure.
There's also those little sulky stroppy little bunny hops behind, when you ask for canter, say, which I just ignore (but check saddle, back etc).
Give me a rearer (but not a flipper, obv) any day. no fan of buckers, have seen too many very very nasty falls. Seen a vid of a lady getting bucked off onto sleepers round manege and paralysed.

Yeah think we may have diff definitions.

By broncing I mean head between the knees proper rodeo style round the school.

By fly bucking I mean he jumps in the air then does a huge buck mid air- not sure about the term for this.

I prefer buckers personally, I must be crazy! If this little guy didn't rear I would love him maybe I should join the rodeo?

 

[Kelpie]

thanx for the clarificaiton, Kerilli.

Interesting, it's such a difficult topic - I wish sometimes they could just tell us what the problem is.... tho I do always think it must be because there is a problem....

 

[paddi22]

i agree with the poster above. in 30 years i've never seen a horse that difficult without underlying physical problems (unless they have tumours etc).

Most times if its not physical, it seems to be due to huge gaps in their education.

Otherwise its the correct mix of feed, turnout and exercise being met. It's amazing when you see dangerous/nappy horses going to new homes and turning into saints, due to being ridden in different ways (more/less arena & schoolingwork/ more gallops/ constant hacking etc)

It's fascinating trying to get into a horses psyche and see what situation it's happiest in!

 

[siennamum]

He sounds like a pony I rode when I was a child OP. This mare bucked me off 6 times in the first 20 mins I rode her. She had been through every yard in the county and knew she could get people off her back. In hindsight she was probably in pain, but this was 35 years ago and people didn't routinely make the checks they do now.
She became useful with us, won a lot jumping, (would always buck you off if you stopped paying attention) but was incorrigible and reverted to her naughtiness with new owners.

I think she was retired in the end, and she suprisingly produced super foals.

 

[kerilli]

Yeah think we may have diff definitions.

By broncing I mean head between the knees proper rodeo style round the school.

By fly bucking I mean he jumps in the air then does a huge buck mid air- not sure about the term for this.

I prefer buckers personally, I must be crazy! If this little guy didn't rear I would love him maybe I should join the rodeo?

Crikey.
I agree with the others. SOMETHING is making this horse react so extremely. The fact that nobody has found what it is yet, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I would be very careful about being someone else's free Crash Test Dummy, to be blunt. High jinks is one thing, we all know about those and cope with them fine for the most part, but this horse sounds as if he has a serious problem and is doing his best to tell you.
Do you have any vids of him working (or not, as the case may be).
The thing is, although 'pts' sounds terrible initially, perhaps it is the best thing, rather than him falling into the wrong hands and possibly seriously hurting someone, and then going down in the world...