Horse totally backing off leg

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emfen1305

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I've started having regular lessons now coblet is is back in proper work but recently he has become very backwards in the school. I am taking a punt that it is not pain related as he has had everything checked more than once and had everything scanned, poked and prodded so I do think it's more a battle of wills every schooling session in a hope that I will give up and put him back in his stable.

He is ridden 6 times a week, twice hacking (30 mins - 2 hours depending), twice lunged and twice ridden (inc 1 hour lesson) so I don't think he's being over worked and I try to give him lots of a variety in what we do (poles, transitions, circles and figures of 8) but ever since i've asked him to really start working properly rather than trotting around like a giraffe he just will not move off my leg. He is sharp with the transitions so he does understand my aids but then two or three strides in he just dies, if I then apply my leg he dies even more and god forbid you tap him with the whip, that's almost a signal for reverse! My instructor is a much stronger rider than me and even she is struggling despite using all of the tricks up her sleeve!

Any advice? I do really feel it is more mental with him and once he learns just to get a move on everyone's life will be easier but I am finishing the sessions more out of puff than he is! I contemplated adding some extra feed but I am reluctant to mess too much unless there is a miracle feed out there! Suggestions very much needed for anything I could try!
 
I've just bought one that fits your exact description under saddle.
Mine has been allowed to get away with blue murder, lots of little things that haven't been stamped on that accumulate into a horse dictating to the rider.
This horse I estimate won't go in the school now for at least a month, if not two. Certainly not in the school under saddle, but possibly a bit of inhand work.

It really is a case of repetition. They have to go forwards and stay forwards. I'll be doing it out hacking and you do have to be on the ball and very consistent in your reaction. Once you are confident in your forwards reaction then introduce further schooling in your hacking - get them accepting the contact, able to leg yield etc and very responsive to the leg before doing it on a small circle and in a situation where they are going to try and drop off the leg again.

Also have a think about smaller boundary testing behaviours they may exhibit, and start to correct those as well!
 
ihatework said:
I've just bought one that fits your exact description under saddle.
Mine has been allowed to get away with blue murder, lots of little things that haven't been stamped on that accumulate into a horse dictating to the rider.
This horse I estimate won't go in the school now for at least a month, if not two. Certainly not in the school under saddle, but possibly a bit of inhand work.

It really is a case of repetition. They have to go forwards and stay forwards. I'll be doing it out hacking and you do have to be on the ball and very consistent in your reaction. Once you are confident in your forwards reaction then introduce further schooling in your hacking - get them accepting the contact, able to leg yield etc and very responsive to the leg before doing it on a small circle and in a situation where they are going to try and drop off the leg again.

Also have a think about smaller boundary testing behaviours they may exhibit, and start to correct those as well!
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Thanks, out hacking he is fine once we get going, he did have a tendency in the past to nap quite badly in the past but touch wood he hasn't done that for well over 18 months now so its just a case of getting him to go forward past the first part and then he's fine.

He's a gentleman on the ground and does respect me, he listens to me on the lunge and when i do in hand work he is very responsive, just seems to be when anyone is on him there is a problem!
 
As he is a cob, I would be concerned that he may have PSSM (was EPSM) and I would test him on either a high oil, high vitamin E diet or with 10g of alcar per day and 10,000 it of natural vitamin E (or 20,000iu of synthetic, which is only half as effective).

I have two with it, one of whom would react like yours before I found the answer.
 
emfen1305 said:
Thanks, out hacking he is fine once we get going, he did have a tendency in the past to nap quite badly in the past but touch wood he hasn't done that for well over 18 months now so its just a case of getting him to go forward past the first part and then he's fine.

He's a gentleman on the ground and does respect me, he listens to me on the lunge and when i do in hand work he is very responsive, just seems to be when anyone is on him there is a problem!
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Well he isn't completely fine if he doesn't go forwards from the very start?
Once he is going how does he react to 'schooling' whilst hacking?
 
Get someone to lunge you on him and leave the control to them if it's a pain issue there will be still reluctance if it's a rider/schooling issue then he will go as he normally does on the lunge.
 
ycbm said:
As he is a cob, I would be concerned that he may have PSSM (was EPSM) and I would test him on either a high oil, high vitamin E diet or with 10g of alcar per day and 10,000 it of natural vitamin E (or 20,000iu of synthetic, which is only half as effective).

I have two with it, one of whom would react like yours before I found the answer.
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He has been tested for type 1 and was negative, he is currently on the diet for type 2 inc vit e oil. I thought it could be that as he does show some symptoms but I am not forking out for a muscle biopsy after all of the vets bills over the last couple of months! Thanks though!
 
ihatework said:
Well he isn't completely fine if he doesn't go forwards from the very start?
Once he is going how does he react to 'schooling' whilst hacking?
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He's quite spooky and uses that to try and get out of working properly (both in the arena and out hacking) but once i've got him relaxed he will work quite nicely and go forward. Unfortunately there isn't anywhere that i can take him to "school" him (fields or such) only paths in straight lines which is fine but doesn't translate when we are back in the arena as such..
 
blitznbobs said:
Get someone to lunge you on him and leave the control to them if it's a pain issue there will be still reluctance if it's a rider/schooling issue then he will go as he normally does on the lunge.
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Good idea, I wanted to have some lunge lessons to work on my own position so could try that, he is fine on the lunge!
 
emfen1305 said:
He's quite spooky and uses that to try and get out of working properly (both in the arena and out hacking) but once i've got him relaxed he will work quite nicely and go forward. Unfortunately there isn't anywhere that i can take him to "school" him (fields or such) only paths in straight lines which is fine but doesn't translate when we are back in the arena as such..
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you can do leg yield.shoulder fore. shoulder in.and the much neglected loads of transitions within and between the paces for a start on paths. just bacause there is not a place to go ib ciecles does not mean you cannot school out hacking. first you do the warm up phase of say 10 mins walk (proper marching walk) on a long rein gradually coming to medium walk the same as you would in a school with halts and walk on again and the horse staying forwards to the bit. then you can do trot and start working properly. you only need a single track for schooling out hacking especially as you say he uses spooking as an evasion :)
 
I sometimes find my horses school better after a short hack they are more relaxed and have a had a warm up, and they tend to go in the school and work properly from the off I don't have that stuffy bit you often get when you first go in the school.

how is his saddle fit ? I only ask as sometimes when it's not right they feel it more in the school when the work is harder.
 
Pinkvboots said:
I sometimes find my horses school better after a short hack they are more relaxed and have a had a warm up, and they tend to go in the school and work properly from the off I don't have that stuffy bit you often get when you first go in the school.

how is his saddle fit ? I only ask as sometimes when it's not right they feel it more in the school when the work is harder.
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I have started to warm him up by walking down the lane as it works out at about 10 minutes but then we have a little tantrum when we get back and go in the school as he thinks it is over and done with haha

i've had it checked twice by two different fitters and they both agreed while it is not absolutely perfect it's not a bad fit, it has plenty of wither clearance and i can run my hand down both flaps at the front when i am on him, the fitters think the panels at the back are about 1/4 inch too long but with all of the other vets bills its a bit lower on my priority list of things to change if it is mostly OK!

Though the saddle fit has just reminded me that i'm currently trying a micklem and have been for 2 weeks (about the same time he's starting to get worse with the backing off) so i might try swapping him back into his normal hunter bridle and see if he goes back to normal..
 
emfen1305 said:
He has been tested for type 1 and was negative, he is currently on the diet for type 2 inc vit e oil. I thought it could be that as he does show some symptoms but I am not forking out for a muscle biopsy after all of the vets bills over the last couple of months! Thanks though!
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I agree a biopsy is pointless atm. When you say he's on the diet, do you mean you are using amino acids, or half a litre of oil a day? PSSM horses need that on top of a low sugar diet.

They are also renounced for being spooky, and one of mine has been a terrible spooker, the other is just 'normally' sharp, but very sharp for his breeding.
 
With a horse that slacks of the pace without changing gait I tend to do lots of transitions within the pace - out hacking and in the school - and also be hyper aware not to use my legs to correct the slowing. If you use your legs to push them along constantly then you'll end up knackered, but not a lot else. Use leg aids to get to the required speed and then use something else as a reminder to stay there. So I tend to go for making a clicking noise, followed by whirling the end of a schooling whip (if they were really lazy I'd tap them with the whip). Meanwhile your legs should remain entirely still.

If you're super consistent it doesn't take them long to work it out - out hacking is the best place to start with the walk
 
ycbm said:
I agree a biopsy is pointless atm. When you say he's on the diet, do you mean you are using amino acids, or half a litre of oil a day? PSSM horses need that on top of a low sugar diet.

They are also renounced for being spooky, and one of mine has been a terrible spooker, the other is just 'normally' sharp, but very sharp for his breeding.
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The type 2 diet isn't the same as type 1. Type 2 diet is higher protein and they are less sensitive to sugar.
 
emfen1305 said:
I have started to warm him up by walking down the lane as it works out at about 10 minutes but then we have a little tantrum when we get back and go in the school as he thinks it is over and done with haha

i've had it checked twice by two different fitters and they both agreed while it is not absolutely perfect it's not a bad fit, it has plenty of wither clearance and i can run my hand down both flaps at the front when i am on him, the fitters think the panels at the back are about 1/4 inch too long but with all of the other vets bills its a bit lower on my priority list of things to change if it is mostly OK!

Though the saddle fit has just reminded me that i'm currently trying a micklem and have been for 2 weeks (about the same time he's starting to get worse with the backing off) so i might try swapping him back into his normal hunter bridle and see if he goes back to normal..
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You may have just solved your own problem! But equally, it could be that your horse doesn't agree that the saddle fit is good enough.
 
FfionWinnie said:
The type 2 diet isn't the same as type 1. Type 2 diet is higher protein and they are less sensitive to sugar.
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One of mine tests negative for type one yet are both responsive to amino acids and vitamin E and a low sugar diet. And the tested one responded to high oil but responds much, much better to alcar. I'd just like to know what diet the OP is taking about because at the moment all she has mentioned is vitamin E and there may be other stuff she can try.
 
Variety in the school may be key to stimulate your cob mentally. Sounds like you mix your work up well between hacking, schooling and lunging, but how about using a variety of equipment in school such as cones, poles, a jump etc to set up a bit of an obstacle course to ride around. Schooling doesn't have to be about endless circling. Bending through cones is fun (and can be ridden like serpentine), and I balance tennis balls on top of mine which I teach her to halt for whilst I pick up then from halt to trot (transition practice!) to the next come where she has to halt again while I place it on, or sometimes a bucket to drop into. Or poles laid out in a passage at adjacent angles to each other and have to ride through carefully without her feet touching performing halts and turns on forehand etc to get through. Then on over trotting poles and then over the jump....
 
Corbie said:
Variety in the school may be key to stimulate your cob mentally. Sounds like you mix your work up well between hacking, schooling and lunging, but how about using a variety of equipment in school such as cones, poles, a jump etc to set up a bit of an obstacle course to ride around. Schooling doesn't have to be about endless circling. Bending through cones is fun (and can be ridden like serpentine), and I balance tennis balls on top of mine which I teach her to halt for whilst I pick up then from halt to trot (transition practice!) to the next come where she has to halt again while I place it on, or sometimes a bucket to drop into. Or poles laid out in a passage at adjacent angles to each other and have to ride through carefully without her feet touching performing halts and turns on forehand etc to get through. Then on over trotting poles and then over the jump....
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That's a good idea, you're right i do vary what he does but actually thinking about it when we school or lunge we do the same thing really as I was hoping practice makes perfect, ie if i do the circle enough times he will actually bend and step under! I'll try putting out some random poles and cones and give him something to think about. He seems to think he is some superb dressage cob in his head that needs no further schooling as he is great but unfortunately you don't get marked very well for acting like a giraffe/tortoise hybrid!
 
Tangaroo said:
I had two horses that were like this in the school and turned out they both had bilateral PSD.
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He's been for a full lameness work up at vets inc scans and xrays, they only found mild arthritis so was injected and then slowly brought back into work.
 
I could literally have written this post about my own horse. He is totally backwards in the school most of the time but really forwards out hacking after the first 5-10 mins. He is tested negative to pssm1 as well, and I have just ordered some vit e and alcar to try with him. I have had various lameness work ups, x rays, scopes, etc but no real results showed up! What I have found so far is that he doesn't take kindly to getting cold so I over rug him to keep his muscles warm which seems to keep him happier in work! I also try and vary what I do with him so always have poles out in different patterns, raised poles, do transitions ALL the time at every couple of markers, chuck in random turn on the forehands, rein back etc, so that he is constantly switched on, oh and I don't do much walk work with him because he tends to switch off! :)
 
xgemmax said:
I could literally have written this post about my own horse. He is totally backwards in the school most of the time but really forwards out hacking after the first 5-10 mins. He is tested negative to pssm1 as well, and I have just ordered some vit e and alcar to try with him. I have had various lameness work ups, x rays, scopes, etc but no real results showed up! What I have found so far is that he doesn't take kindly to getting cold so I over rug him to keep his muscles warm which seems to keep him happier in work! I also try and vary what I do with him so always have poles out in different patterns, raised poles, do transitions ALL the time at every couple of markers, chuck in random turn on the forehands, rein back etc, so that he is constantly switched on, oh and I don't do much walk work with him because he tends to switch off! :)
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This is good to hear, in a fashion not that i wish anything bad on anyone else's horse haha but it's nice to hear other people have these issues and it's not necessarily pain related! I have spent the last 8 months and the best part of £5000 on scans, xrays, supplements, treatments, drugs etc not to mention countless hours of worrying and google trying to find out what is wrong. Part of me does worry as he was very stoic when he had ulcers and arthritis (albeit mild) but to be honest they did a full body bone scan and xrays, flexions, hard and soft lunging etc and he never really presented anything so I would be confused if he did have some terrible underlying issue! I do now think it's just a bit of his personality and who will give in first mentality haha! I think i will really force myself to do lots of with him and stop being so lazy myself as of course it is easier for me just to let him trot a couple of laps of the school which I am guilty of when I am tired. He does look his best whilst lunging so I do think it is a fault of mine!
 
emfen1305 said:
This is good to hear, in a fashion not that i wish anything bad on anyone else's horse haha but it's nice to hear other people have these issues and it's not necessarily pain related! I have spent the last 8 months and the best part of £5000 on scans, xrays, supplements, treatments, drugs etc not to mention countless hours of worrying and google trying to find out what is wrong. Part of me does worry as he was very stoic when he had ulcers and arthritis (albeit mild) but to be honest they did a full body bone scan and xrays, flexions, hard and soft lunging etc and he never really presented anything so I would be confused if he did have some terrible underlying issue! I do now think it's just a bit of his personality and who will give in first mentality haha! I think i will really force myself to do lots of with him and stop being so lazy myself as of course it is easier for me just to let him trot a couple of laps of the school which I am guilty of when I am tired. He does look his best whilst lunging so I do think it is a fault of mine!
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Yes know the feeling, I do find myself lacking motivation to school sometimes when I know I have a battle on my hands! I also find he works best when in consistent work so instead of giving him a day off a week I'll give him an easy day where we just walk round the block or something. I usually do 4-5 days hacking, 1 lesson and one school with poles, occasionally a little jump. I don't lunge as mine backs off completely and it's just a waste of time for him.

Literally the only thing that showed up at the vets was mild arthritis in his right stifle which was treated with a steroid injection but that really set off his symptoms after that and he was completely miserable, could not tack him up or put a rug on all winter and he had 5 months off, and really don't think it did much! I feel like the vets think I'm wasting their time as they don't think there is anything wrong with him, so I do my best to manage him with how he is most comfortable.
 
xgemmax said:
Yes know the feeling, I do find myself lacking motivation to school sometimes when I know I have a battle on my hands! I also find he works best when in consistent work so instead of giving him a day off a week I'll give him an easy day where we just walk round the block or something. I usually do 4-5 days hacking, 1 lesson and one school with poles, occasionally a little jump. I don't lunge as mine backs off completely and it's just a waste of time for him.

Literally the only thing that showed up at the vets was mild arthritis in his right stifle which was treated with a steroid injection but that really set off his symptoms after that and he was completely miserable, could not tack him up or put a rug on all winter and he had 5 months off, and really don't think it did much! I feel like the vets think I'm wasting their time as they don't think there is anything wrong with him, so I do my best to manage him with how he is most comfortable.
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I try to avoid it except when I am having my lesson so that I know I am doing everything as best I can to give him the best chance of going well but then my instructor wants us to work on things in between to try and get him more consistent which makes sense! I currently work Toby 6 days a week with a day off but sometimes it drops to 5 if i have to work late or do something, I do at least try and do something with him on the days when i am not riding even its just stretches or teaching him little tricks.

Yeah Toby was the same, full body scan totally clear bar both hocks, He had nerve blocks but made no difference and then the xrays showed mild arthritic changes so they injected. He had a fairly bad experience, not the vets fault, he just is very routine driven and being sedated twice a day and moved from stable to stable just really affected him so much so that he flipped himself over in the horsebox on the way back and colicked all weekend so to be honest I don't want to send him back to the vets for more tests haha. He does look much better than back in January, just a feeling that I get sometimes and its a 50/50 between pushing him to get on with it or calling the vet for further tests.. I know what you mean about the vets feel like your wasting their time though..
 
I would stop lunging twice every week, it serves little purpose if he is not working really well, will be tough on his hocks if he is, it may be boring him to the extent he switches off rather than gets on with it that is now transferring to ridden work, I know it can be useful for some, can be an easy way to exercise but it could be contributing to his lack of enthusiasm under saddle, if you cannot ride then think of something else that he can do, some in hand polework, loose schooling, long reining which would be easier on the hocks and you can get outside the school for added interest.

Think outside the box a bit and see if a few weeks of doing something different helps, some gymnastic jumping over low fences, if he is up to it, could give him a boost.
 
be positive said:
I would stop lunging twice every week, it serves little purpose if he is not working really well, will be tough on his hocks if he is, it may be boring him to the extent he switches off rather than gets on with it that is now transferring to ridden work, I know it can be useful for some, can be an easy way to exercise but it could be contributing to his lack of enthusiasm under saddle, if you cannot ride then think of something else that he can do, some in hand polework, loose schooling, long reining which would be easier on the hocks and you can get outside the school for added interest.

Think outside the box a bit and see if a few weeks of doing something different helps, some gymnastic jumping over low fences, if he is up to it, could give him a boost.
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I get your point but I have been advised by the vet and physio to do regular lunging to encourage him to stretch over his back, something he is learning to do under saddle but not consistently, he is much more consistent on the lunge now and does work nicely especially over poles. I do lunge in very large circles and make sure he has sufficient warm up and cool down so I feel like it helps him but I do see where you are coming from, I will try to mix up some of the exercises. He does everything else you mention fine and I do do that now and again but he has only just started back in full ridden work inc schooling so I feel like regular longreining, loose school and in hand walks would be going a bit backward as I spent 8 weeks solidly doing that for his rehab. I don't mind every now and again which i do to mix things up but I feel like he needs a bit of ridden consistency in the school to get him working properly, but that's just my opinion! :)
 
i`ve had horses like this, and known horses in the same family like this.

so i worked them every day, always lunging before riding, and free schooling and loose jumping, and kept on and on, they were not lazy, just took more training, and eventually became more forward off the leg.

i know how tiring it can be, but i learned not to keep pushing and shoving just riding them steadily and waiting and waiting, then suddenly the whole thing comes together, instead of getting deader they come to life and when they start to enjoy work its like a rolling ball that gathers momentum.
 
tristar said:
i`ve had horses like this, and known horses in the same family like this.

so i worked them every day, always lunging before riding, and free schooling and loose jumping, and kept on and on, they were not lazy, just took more training, and eventually became more forward off the leg.

i know how tiring it can be, but i learned not to keep pushing and shoving just riding them steadily and waiting and waiting, then suddenly the whole thing comes together, instead of getting deader they come to life and when they start to enjoy work its like a rolling ball that gathers momentum.
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I am hoping this is the case, and that the consistency will help him to come round to the idea, he's a smart cookie and very honest so I think it's either I am not asking the right questions or he's looking for an easy way out haha!
 
I ride one horse who is possibly the most backwards thinking individual to have ever graced the planet. He's fine when he jumps, if it's bigger than a metre. On the flat and over small jumps he just cannot be bothered to put in the effort - has apparently always been like this even with pro riders and he is sound as a bell, so I don't think it's physical.

I will sometimes use a jump as part of my warm up but more as of late I've been a bit stricter. I get in the arena and after a gentle walk around and a lap or so of trot on a long rein I go straight into canter

on a loose rein. I ask lightly from a walk and if he doesn't go straight away, I use the whip. I will be honest and say it isn't a gentle tap, I just put my hand on the neckstrap and flick it behind my leg pretty hard from that position along with a kick if necessary. He leaps forward usually, which is why the hand is on the neckstrap! Then I stop at the other end with a big pat and test the walk-canter again. It only took a few rides of doing this for him to go forward off the leg much more easily and we were both happier for it.

After he's in canter I then do plenty of lengthening and shortening the stride and really push for a very very obvious difference, and then back to trot. We then do some transitions between paces and if he doesn't go off the leg immediately in the upwards transition he'll get a tap. It's finally getting to the stage where he (mostly) goes into the next gait without too much hassle - though I do still sometimes have to give him a kick halfway round the school to keep him in the chosen gait!
 
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