horse turned from a bit moody to scary today :-(

mandwhy

mandwhy

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I posted earlier this week saying my mare had been bitey, reared at me and was generally stroppy at the weekend when she is normally so very good, I figured it was just a bit of mareishness or maybe I could give her a magnesium calmer if she continues like this. As I am waiting for new saddle figured she will be better when in work maybe...

Well this week she has been spooky, anxious, seems more stressed as in cantering around when she is normally quite sedentary, and then yesterday I got the farrier out as her shoes were quite overdue, well she has been arsey about having her feet picked up recently but she was not happy, we got fronts done in the end.... she normally just needs a tap on the hock and she holds it up for you! This is the time of obliging horse she is normally (although I've only had her two months). Decided we'd leave the backs til next time he is around as didn't want to get him booted!

I would have just expected it will pass but today I went along, gave her a bit of a pat, caught up on poo picking so was there a while, then she was hanging about over by the fence where she normally has her food. I went up to her, gave her a bit of a stroke around the neck, seemed fine but as soon as I touched her anywhere past the shoulder she tried to bite, I wanted to pick up a foot just for the heck of it and to keep practising, I literally touched her leg and she turned and went for me, so I growled got her to back away etc, let her calm down, tried again, well this time she REALLY went for me and as much as I tried to stand my ground she was literally going to flatten me if I didn't get out of the way, but she didn't stop there either :-( She was turning, kicking out, circling me, rearing and charging at me teeth bared.... I was shouting WHOOOAA STOP as firmly as I could and she looked so aggressive like she really wanted to hurt me! I had to actually flee through the fence :-(

I was going to feed her early but didn't want to feel like she'd bullied food out of me so I will go back in a bit. She has always been polite around food and has loads of grass plus a pile of untouched hay so I don't think she is ravenous?!

This was really quite a scary incident for me! I don't think I have ever encountered this type of aggression, previous TB I had on loan was quite defiant, as in turning in on lunge and striking out with feet, or getting fed up, rearing and running off bucking, but nothing this nasty, it was like a dog picking a fight!

She is only 5 so I understand she may be testing boundaries but just want a bit of advice so I don't A) allow the behaviour to get worse by 'letting her win' or B) make it worse by presenting a challenge when I tell her off for something.

I think it all boils down to the fact she does not like being shouted at and feels the need to start a fight, but what else would you do if a horse was trying to bite you? I am not an aggressive person. If I see an attempt at a bite I just give her an oi or eeyy stop that, then DON'T you dare! and then if she actually does bite me I will square up to her and er, growl a warning or whatever you want to call it. I don't often smack as it doesn't seem to make much difference to her and she is so strong I think it makes me appear more feeble!

She is a 15hh Haflinger so maybe I should have listened to what I had heard about their reputation but I thought that was more just being a bit bargey and tanking off, I have been very strict with her to avoid this and now it's like she is staging an equine uprising!!

She is very unhappy about something and nothing has changed really other than the weather a bit... advice welcome
 
My old tb when through a similar phase, I got everything sorted out physically first (stomach ulcers, poorly fitted saddle, back/physio done, feet sorted out) and when it continued (but to a less degree) he got a smack with the end of my lead rope. Behaved perfectly after that.

BUT that was only after I had sorted out all his issues.

He was also (due to the ulcers) prone to get angry if he was hungry so he always had access to fibre, he went though a phase of threatening for food so I used to feed in the field, me one side of the fence and him the other and he would only be allowed food if he stood still and turned his head away from me with his ears forward. Once he was stood like that he was allowed the food, after a couple of months he was good as gold even when hungry.
 
Did someone mention stroppy haffie ;)
I also have a haffie which we bought as a 5 year old after being totally ruined by a very soft, 'kind hearted' owner so do understand how strong and scarey these little cuties can be. I am presuming there is no medical reason for this behaviour though it may be worth getting her checked out.
Im not up on the history with your mare but you say there had been a issue with her trying to nip you...this is 1 trick mine has never done but I do wonder if it is pain related or just her testing the boundaries. Looking back over the last few months can you think of any incidents that may have been trivial but that you let her get away with...such as picking her feet up, bargey when led, rude around food etc. In my experience of having to re educate a haffie from being dangerous and unpredictable to a decent family horse the one thing I have learnt is that you must never ever let bad behaviour no matter how slight go un checked...they are very clever and sniff lack of strong leadership a mile off and gradually before you know it you are getting incidents like today. I have loads of examples of rude, bargey habits he got into and how we gradually got him to understand how to behave without ever having to resort to anything stronger than an angry no...PM me if you want to have a chat.
By the way I also have a TB...stacks easier than the haffie and the welshie for that matter!
 
Thank you both I am glad I'm not the only one!

Dizzle - I did wonder about being angry when hungry as I was in the 'food area', but she lives out on two acres of overgrown grass, If I give her a section of hay she leaves half at the mo (I only really give it to her because she really likes hay!) And has a small feed of chaff and linseed. I am wondering if anything could be wrong, am due to get her teeth done soon so could maybe be that and will speak to the vet when he comes. Although judging from how she was with the farrier I would rather wait to see if she settles down first :-/

RRR - Yes! The previous owner who I think had her for a year and a half said that her first owner did parelli and pretty much let her do whatever the heck she wanted so she had to do a lot of making boundaries! She did well as she is normally so good, steps back when requested casually, very friendly and sweet and respectful, until now!

She still stands back and waits for food etc so she's not bargey as such until you try and do something with her, I have tried to be strict about that as I know how intelligent this breed are and they pick up so quickly on what they can get away with!

With the feet I have probably let her get away with it as my recently broken arm is a bit crap! So I thought no problem we'll get her back to being good with praise etc...

My BF did hand treat her a few too many times I think and she started to get bossy, he is nervous of horses so I thought getting him to tell her to step back and be polite for a bit of carrot and him even giving her feed and making her wait was a good exercise for him, again testament to how good she was as he generally does not trust them one bit! But she did start harassing him a bit and being bargey when he came in (although fine with me and I did my best to teach him elbows are your best defence!)

She is very good led in the field but I was taking her out on the roads in hand to keep her busy and then she would get a bit anxious and I would find it more difficult to be as consistent (in a bridle of course) as sometimes you have to do what is best for safety and getting out of the way rather than from a horse training perspective! The last time she did get very strong as we had to go past some excitable horses in a field, and I haven't taken her out for about two weeks as lack of time and it being dark and horrid!

I have ridden her only twice, didn't want to put anything ill fitting on her so bought her without tack and got her fitted but the saddle I ordered is STILL not here, I am hoping riding will improve things! I was considering bareback but since arm was recently injured I don't want to fall on it!

She definitely seems not to trust me after getting the farrier out!
 
When she goes to bite you bump her in the chops with whichever bit she was going to bite ie elbow, knee, head (!). I would be strict when handling her, sounds like she has her feet under the table now and is pushing her luck.
 
Sounds like your horse has 0 respect or confidence in you. Thats not to say you have been doing anything wrong, just maybe missing a few things out. I would recommend buying some books on ground work, what about Kelly Marks Perfect manners, you need to be assertive with this mare or she could hurt someone and end up being only good for meat herself, dont forget these are prey animals, you should not be the one running away. That does not mean shouting and getting emotional, just educate yourself on how to provide your little darling with a leader..you. Good luck
 
Have you changed diet, my girl goes a bit loopy on hayledge. Last year, when she was 5, she did all the rearing up when being led, and it was due to the hayledge. I agree with Ffion about the biting, get the knee or elbow ready and defend your space,the harder she comes at the harder you need to defend .
 
For a bit anyway I suggest you use a head collar and rope for anytime you want to handle her. If you're not handling her, ignore her. Even if you want to give her a pat or mess with her feet or whatever, head collar and rope. This is going to help her with boundaries. If she was messed about with Parelli I'm not surprised by her actions. Having said that I have a stroppy mare. But she really hates anyone near her stable, or should I say the Princess Palace. But I ignore her. I do what I need to do like filling water ect and pay her no mind. She looks scary but its her. If I need to do something with her she knocks all the mare behavoir off. Thing is she was like this when she came home from jumper training. Apparently, I learned after it was all over, that her trainer loved a good fight. And even though I went there everyday, things probably weren't too pleasant for her. Yes I feel horrible and guilty. But I've also had mine since she was born. Great under saddle and a real trier. I think the hardest thing for me has always been she's not a lovey mare as she is my heart horse. But that's my problem not hers. I handle and treat her with respect and she is who she is.

Terri
 
mperson01 said:
Have you changed diet, my girl goes a bit loopy on hayledge. Last year, when she was 5, she did all the rearing up when being led, and it was due to the hayledge. I agree with Ffion about the biting, get the knee or elbow ready and defend your space,the harder she comes at the harder you need to defend .
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I don't agree with this, there is no excuse for bad behaviour unless it is ill or you have been feeding steroids:eek: You are in charge don't wait for the need to defend yourself..take control horse ownership should be about be partners and fun, not enemies and war
 
It could just be moodiness/bad manners but then I have a friend who had a pony for their daughter and, over the last year or so she started getting really aggressive when she hadn'r been previously. I collected this pony for them originally and she had been a lovely pony for the kid for the first year or 2.

They looked in to everything - hormones, ulcers, tack, back, teeth etc etc and ccould not find any reason for it. The vet actually suggested having the pony PTS!! She couldn't do that, as the pony was still only young (under 10) and she changed vets. Coincidentally she then heard from someone else who had a similar experience and it was down to a mineral deficiency. The vet described it as the pony been hyper-sensitive all over - it would make her skin feel like it was on fire. It had already got to the point they could ride her or even brush her as she'd react so violently and aggressively.

They put her on some supplement (I can't recall what it is called but I believe it did have some magnesium in) and within a fortnight the old, pleasant-to-be-around pony was back again!

they have since sold the pony as she is now outgrown but the new owners were fully advised of the problem. However, I think it is dependant on the soil type and whether it's lacking in these minerals so, it may be the pony would actually be fine elsewhere anyway.

Just goes to show there can be so many reasons for this type of behaviour but you do have to start ruling out one at a time!
 
My Haffy gelding is very grumpy at the minute but not nasty. I do have to set boundries with him EVERY day!

For example, if I bring him in to feed him, I always pick his feet and check him over before he gets any feed. These are the rules, BUT every other day he will be impatient and hop around and not stand to have his feet picked. On these days I untie him and back him away from me (by rope wiggling) sometimes right to the end of my 22ft line. Then ask him back but stop him mid way, back him back a couple more steps than I turn and walk back to where he was tied, tie him up and pick his feet no problem! I never let anything go unchecked, no matter how minor.

I reckon once she is in work she will be much better. Just be really firm with her, even if that sometimes means getting angry with her. I would carry a whip when you approach her in the field for your protection. I am not saying hit her, but at the same time Haffy's are strong and know it so just be careful xx
 
Horses work to get things they want, and try to get away from things they don't like. Things they want include food and company. Things they don't like include small spaces and being alone. They don't spend time plotting how to get one over on humans, unless there's a clear benefit in terms of getting something they don't currently have (food, company...). They will try to escape situations where they feel trapped or alone or in discomfort, and will try to defend themsleves when they feel a threat.

Your horse had hay and grass, but still reacted badly when you tried to handle her. Previous to you trying to handle her, she had been sociable and wanted to stay near you, suggesting she didn't see you as a threat until you tried to touch her. And I think you've said she was Ok to have feet done before?

Is she by any chance turned out on frosty grass? Leading possibly to tender feet (hence the difficulties with farrier) and sore tummy (hence not wanting you to touch her flanks?). Just a thought - but when behaviour has previously been good and is now bad and deteriorating there is always a reason, and the reason is never "just wants to get one over on you".
 
Thanks everyone for your thoughts!

EI - you raise a good point that I did not have a headcollar or anything on today and it would probably not have happened! She had never been strong in a headxollar as she knows I will yank on it if she does anything drastic.

Daisy2 - Thanks I will look into books, I do like reading about that sort of thing.*

Haffy - yes that is what I usually do! Sometimes I think too much of what I do with her involves backing up and I think she must get fed up! I think she will defo be better when ridden although wouldn't have fancied that today!

Brightbay - yes she lives out and the change in her is literally since the frost came on Sunday I think it was. I had thought there might be a foot problem hence not happy about farrier etc, although after she was acting up I walked her round on the tarmac without her front shoes on for a breather and noticed she did not seem footy like the TB would have been (he would be visibly sore if he lost a shoe). I am cautious that she is a good doer but as her weight is ok at the moment I didn't feel the need to restrict her grazing or anything? She has 4 shoes on at the mo (hinds left on to be attempted next time he comes to do other horses). She is not rugged as she gets stressed by it if left for a whole night (i have worked up to about 4 hours).
 
Ladyt - yes think I will think about a supplement as that sounds rather similar!

Ffion and mperson - I will have my elbows at the ready!

I went back with a stick just in case when I went to feed her and she was absolutely fine, stepped back when asked and waited nicely, stroked her along her body just to test reaction as she has never been moody about that and she was fine :-)

Defo going prepared tomorrow!
 
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