Horse turning to a blind panic whenever we try to put the leadrope on

[Arizona120]

We've been having some issues with a three year old colt that I sometimes work with. We've had a couple fluke accidents where he's gotten loose with the leadrope dangling and every time he's gone into a blind panic. The problem is now whenever the leadrope gets clipped on, he immediately starts to panic. He's got a cut on his leg that we need to be able to treat but unfortunately getting hold of him is now a problem.

I've tried practicing just touching the leadrope under his chin and rewarding when he stands still and let's me do this calmly but the minute I actually clip the leadrope on, he just starts panicking straight away. Unfortunately I couldn't hold him the last time this happened so the cycle has been reinforced. Any suggestions on how we could tackle this?

 

[TheMule]

That’s really unfortunate and not an easy one to fix….. he needs to get over it and the best way is to leave him with some rope attached to his head collar, but not a long enough piece for him to stand on. You can plait some baler twine to loop through or just cut a bit of an older rope (so long as it's not the type that will fray) but about a foot long is a good starting point, and he just has to get on with it and get over it

 

[Skib]

I am not a Parelli person, but, from my NH education, I seem to remember that there is an early Parelli ground exercise which consists of draping a lead rope or ropes over a horse. This has a secondary purpose as it makes a horse less likely to panic should it ever get caught in a hedge

 

[ycbm]

If I understand you, you can still get a rope clipped on. If so. Make that the longest line line you can buy (I've got 30m), folded in a way where you can let it run and not strangle your hand. Wear gloves. Start in a smallish pen that he can't completely escape from at the end of the line. Slip the line every time he pulls back, then walk towards him gathering up the slack as you go, and reassure/treat. Repeat until this is thoroughly boring for him, then start trying to lead him.
.

 

[paddy555]

I wouldn't resolve this by using a headcollar and rope. The horse has totally frightened himself no use thinking he has to get over it. I wouldn't risk any more mistakes.

I would get him into a fairly small pen, yard or even stable even using feed if necessary and teach him to lead with a rope around his neck. Handle him and gradually put a fairly short rope over his neck in front of the withers, tighten it gradually and as he gets used to it teach him to back, turn and go forward using this and also a schooling whip. Move onto leading him around a small area using the neck rope, your voice and the schooling whip to indicate what you want.

When he was very happy with this I would put the headcollar on and keep repeating. Then I would start doing the suggestions in post 3 moving onto throwing ropes over and under him, whirling them around above his head. Only when he was confident with it all would I move back to clipping it on and leading from both a neck rope and headcollar rope together.
In the meantime I would be teaching him to lower his head on command. (this is detailed in the TTeam exercises you could google) So in a difficult situation it becomes "lower head, engage brain and don't panic"

 

[little_critter]

Positive reinforcement / clicker training sounds perfect for this situation.
OP what area are you in, if you’re near me I can recommend someone.

 

[Pippin and Poppy]

Positive reinforcement / clicker training sounds perfect for this situation.

Also look into CAT-H for horses.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

To get the leg sorted I would use an old-fashioned rope halter, slip it on over his head, round a bucket of feed if necessary. There will be no click of the clip to upset him Have someone hold the rope, concentrating only on that and standing very still, except for talking to the colt, while someone else dies what needs to be done to the leg.
At a completely separate time, I would stand near him click the lead rope clip a nd treat him, without making an attempt to clip the rope onto him/his headcollar. Repeat and repeat and repeat until he no longer worries about it and fgs don't let him get loose with a rope dangling again.

Eta, you could also bring a headcollar with rope already clipped on, put the rope out of the way so that he doesn't feel its weight, then put the headcollar on him, just to get the leg treated.

 

[Patterdale]

I would clip a rope on that’s been shortened to about 2’ and leave it on. Like with feral youngsters. He’ll soon chill out.

 

[Sossigpoker]

To get the leg sorted I would use an old-fashioned rope halter, slip it on over his head, round a bucket of feed if necessary. There will be no click of the clip to upset him Have someone hold the rope, concentrating only on that and standing very still, except for talking to the colt, while someone else dies what needs to be done to the leg.
At a completely separate time, I would stand near him click the lead rope clip a nd treat him, without making an attempt to clip the rope onto him/his headcollar. Repeat and repeat and repeat until he no longer worries about it and fgs don't let him get loose with a rope dangling again.

Eta, you could also bring a headcollar with rope already clipped on, put the rope out of the way so that he doesn't feel its weight, then put the headcollar on him, just to get the leg treated.

This !
Sounds like he's scared of the sound and feeling of the rope clicking on , so these approaches would remove that trigger.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

To get the leg sorted I would use an old-fashioned rope halter, slip it on over his head, round a bucket of feed if necessary. There will be no click of the clip to upset him Have someone hold the rope, concentrating only on that and standing very still, except for talking to the colt, while someone else dies what needs to be done to the leg.
At a completely separate time, I would stand near him click the lead rope clip a nd treat him, without making an attempt to clip the rope onto him/his headcollar. Repeat and repeat and repeat until he no longer worries about it and fgs don't let him get loose with a rope dangling again.

Eta, you could also bring a headcollar with rope already clipped on, put the rope out of the way so that he doesn't feel its weight, then put the headcollar on him, just to get the leg treated.

This totally and agree don't just leave a rope attached to the headcollar for him to just get on with it, if his inclined to panic he could really hurt himself and it will scare him even more.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I have run the other end of a rope (the clipless end) through the ring of a headcollar and held the folded over rope in my hand before with fractious horses, then if they panic too much you can let go of the folded piece and keep hold of the length of the rope and it will just slide out of the ring.
It's not the ideal solution, but if he's already taken to ripping the rope out of your hands at least it won't be left on the headcollar to spook him.
It goes without saying I wouldn't try the above unless I was in a safe place to have a loose horse!

 

[SpeedyPony]

Another thought- for dealing with the leg in the immediate future, is it possible to run him into a stable/pen and treat without needing a rope on him?

 

[AdorableAlice]

I've had this problem with a very large youngster with a huge panic drive.

I put an ancient and rotten leather headcollar on him and left it on him, with a 6" bit of baling string tied to the ring. I did not use a rope, instead I used a piece of old cotton lunge line cut into lengths, and threaded it through the headcollar under his chin (not the ring). I could hold both loose ends of the lunge line in one hand and attempt to touch the horse with my other hand, or in the very beginning, a padded walking stick with a glove on it. If/when the horse decided he couldn't cope I just opened my fingers and let one end of the line go, which would slide easily out of the headcollar. I tried to read the horse and let the line go before he actually went. I knew, with his anxious mentally, that if he got loose with anything attached to him, he would do real damage to whatever was in his way and himself. I did all the training in an enclosed environment and gradually made the space bigger before finally being outside in the school and then the paddock

With time, effort and consistency he improved and I could use a normal rope and clip and taught him to tie up. Even now, at 12 years of age, I am careful with anything dangling around him. When he was calm enough to back, he was not lunged or long lined and is only lunged now if a vet wants to see him trot up.

It is not an easy problem to solve and under no circumstances would you want to have the horse loose with a fixed dangling rope.

 

[Arizona120]

Thanks for all the responses! Lots to think about.

Just a bit more info - he currently lives out in a big paddock (it's a couple hectares) and we can't really get him into a smaller space (there's a lunge ring close by) without leading him on the rope. He's got a massive panic drive and panics blind so will and has run into fences before, making me weary of putting him in smaller spaces as well. We've been quite gentle with him but he was quite wild when he arrived and had previously been mishandled. When attempting to halter break him, the previous handlers had pushed him into such a shutdown that he literally lay down and they couldn't get him to get up again he was so unresponsive. He can still be somewhat fearful of people. As he's in a larger space, I'm also weary of leaving any rope on him in case he gets loose and caught on something. Think the idea of threading the lunge line through without clipping on might help. He also really doesn't like being handled while eating his feed so unfortunately that won't work.

Up until now, I've done primarily positive reinforcement with him which has worked quite well but unfortunately he isn't very responsive to it when he starts panicking. It also seems to be more the fact that the leadrope is attached than the noise of the leadrope that triggers him, my leadrope is quite quiet.

I wouldn't resolve this by using a headcollar and rope. The horse has totally frightened himself no use thinking he has to get over it. I wouldn't risk any more mistakes.

I would get him into a fairly small pen, yard or even stable even using feed if necessary and teach him to lead with a rope around his neck. Handle him and gradually put a fairly short rope over his neck in front of the withers, tighten it gradually and as he gets used to it teach him to back, turn and go forward using this and also a schooling whip. Move onto leading him around a small area using the neck rope, your voice and the schooling whip to indicate what you want.

When he was very happy with this I would put the headcollar on and keep repeating. Then I would start doing the suggestions in post 3 moving onto throwing ropes over and under him, whirling them around above his head. Only when he was confident with it all would I move back to clipping it on and leading from both a neck rope and headcollar rope together.
In the meantime I would be teaching him to lower his head on command. (this is detailed in the TTeam exercises you could google) So in a difficult situation it becomes "lower head, engage brain and don't panic"

@paddy555 this probably the one of the best ways around it but don't know how successful we'll be in such a large space. Gauging from where he currently is, I think this will probably take a fair amount of time but the leg is a bit urgent.

@AdorableAlice I think I'm in quite a similar situation with this young one. We've also left an old halter on last time he panicked as well so hopefully he's easier to get a hold off since he's a bit nervous of being handled now. Maybe another route to try.

Will let you know how things go, I did pop down earlier today to say hello to him but he's quite nervous after our session. Hopefully we can still get ahold of him

 

[Tiddlypom]

I would clip a rope on that’s been shortened to about 2’ and leave it on. Like with feral youngsters. He’ll soon chill out.

Or he might kill himself trying to get away from it . That’s flooding, which is out of favour for a reason.

I’d thread a piece of rope through (no clip on it).

 

[little_critter]

Thanks for all the responses! Lots to think about.

Just a bit more info - he currently lives out in a big paddock (it's a couple hectares) and we can't really get him into a smaller space (there's a lunge ring close by) without leading him on the rope. He's got a massive panic drive and panics blind so will and has run into fences before, making me weary of putting him in smaller spaces as well. We've been quite gentle with him but he was quite wild when he arrived and had previously been mishandled. When attempting to halter break him, the previous handlers had pushed him into such a shutdown that he literally lay down and they couldn't get him to get up again he was so unresponsive. He can still be somewhat fearful of people. As he's in a larger space, I'm also weary of leaving any rope on him in case he gets loose and caught on something. Think the idea of threading the lunge line through without clipping on might help. He also really doesn't like being handled while eating his feed so unfortunately that won't work.

Up until now, I've done primarily positive reinforcement with him which has worked quite well but unfortunately he isn't very responsive to it when he starts panicking. It also seems to be more the fact that the leadrope is attached than the noise of the leadrope that triggers him, my leadrope is quite quiet.

@paddy555 this probably the one of the best ways around it but don't know how successful we'll be in such a large space. Gauging from where he currently is, I think this will probably take a fair amount of time but the leg is a bit urgent.

@AdorableAlice I think I'm in quite a similar situation with this young one. We've also left an old halter on last time he panicked as well so hopefully he's easier to get a hold off since he's a bit nervous of being handled now. Maybe another route to try.

Will let you know how things go, I did pop down earlier today to say hello to him but he's quite nervous after our session. Hopefully we can still get ahold of him

I’d suggest that if he’s getting to the point of panicking, then the positive reinforcement is going too fast for him. You might need to break it down into the tiniest steps and him be comfortable before you move to the next tiny step.

 

[SantaVera]

Have you tried putting a headcollar on with just a clip attached and no rope,then unclip the clip after a little while and see if he's ok with the sound. This could progress to attaching a clip with a short rope tail and so on until you can get a full leadrein on him. Might take weeks.

 

[ycbm]

Your latest information changed everything and you should ignore my previous post. Your horse is far too damaged to treat in any way "normally".
.
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[paddy555]

Your horse is far too damaged to treat in any way "normally".
.
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I agree and there is a high likelihood of someone getting hurt if you do.

I cannot see any way you can treat the leg. A horse this traumatised in a large field even if you got a headcollar and rope on him and held him it wouldn't be safe for someone to get near enough to the leg.

Realistically any attempt to "train" this horse is going to take a very very long time. I have no idea what plans there are for his future but I think whoever owns him will have to be prepared that they cannot be sure he will be ridden if he is as traumatised as you describe. A horse pushed into the shut down trauma you described is not going to forget that memory for a very long time. Perhaps he has just been taken on as a rescue.

It's hard to tell if you are talking about a horse or a smaller pony.
It would IMO be pointless in even trying to put a headcollar and rope on in the field and try to lead him. There is no way you will match his strength and it will be another failure if he takes off again. It may be better to go up to him in the field and just handle him without a rope or headcollar. Teach him to be stroked, to try and get to like humans.
I don't see you making much progress in a large field as he can simply leave. If he wasn't a colt I would suggest putting a quiet horse in with him and work it that way. Maybe he is a very quiet colt and that could work.

If he was mine I would get him into a smaller area (coral type area) where he would live permanently with another (very quiet and friendly) horse in a pen next to him and he would be entirely dependent upon me for his food and the other horse to help me train him. As you can't lead him to move him you will probably have to either drive him, lure him with food or lure him with another horse. I would also limit it to only one person working with him, feeding him etc (a female) It may take him a long time to trust someone.

 

[TPO]

What's wrong with/happened to his leg and what sort of attention does it need?

Are you in the UK?

 

[maya2008]

I have one of these… between myself and previous owner we have discovered that:
- leaving a small bit of rope on does nothing. She doesn’t care and it doesn’t help her get used to the longer one.
- waiting for her to stop panicking doesn’t work, because she never stops. She’ll run and run then stand there, shake and pant, before setting herself off again until she is exhausted or it comes off. She never stops being stressed by it. Old owner described having to do so to get her feet done as ‘traumatising for both of us’.

Hence me going down the desensitising route when she arrived here. This initially went well until the rope unfurled all snake-like. Then we got past that, could snake it out and touch her legs, dangle down beneath her head etc. Unfurling while touching her? Fine if I have one hand on each end. As soon as she thinks it might be attached to her, she’s not happy. We’re currently working on that!!! I clicker train her because it works. She needs the enormous negative association she has to be replaced by positive association - high value food (polos/carrots) works wonders.

In the short term, I have taught mine to stand for me, while I pick up feet/faff around. She knows voice commands and will stand and wait when asked. So I can get stuff done, and ‘lead’ her about, just can’t get a lead rope on!!

I have had several feral traumatised ponies before - what has worked for us is removing their fear of humans in general with gentle desensitisation (several months to a year), then spending the money on the specialist trainer (as appropriate to their specific issue) when that’s the only hurdle left. Cheaper that way, and more likely to succeed.

This one you work with needs consistent desensitisation work with one person they can learn to trust, over a significant period of time. That or to go away to an experienced trainer who specialises in this kind of thing.

 

[Lois Lame]

Are you able to encourage him into a small area? It's not a safe thing to be operating in a large area where it's too easy to lose the horse with a lunge rein or lead rope trailing.

I personally would do as ybcm suggested. ycbm, I'd be interested to know why you no longer think this would be okay.

 

[ycbm]

Are you able to encourage him into a small area? It's not a safe thing to be operating in a large area where it's too easy to lose the horse with a lunge rein or lead rope trailing.

I personally would do as ybcm suggested. ycbm, I'd be interested to know why you no longer think this would be okay.

The horse has previously been so flooded that it lay down and acted as if it was dead. It's also known to panic so badly that it runs into fences.

The risk of creating a panic where it kills or seriously injures itself is far to high far too high to be safe.

The risk of flooding it so it lays down and plays dead is far too high to be fair.

I agree with Maya now we have the fuller details that the horse needs gentling and taming and learning he's with humans he can trust over months to a year before anybody tries to actually handle him like a horse. If his trust can ever be regained after the start he's had.
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[Pippin and Poppy]

The Science of Connection (Polyvagal Theory with Horses)​

There is a youtube video by Warwick Schiller that briefly talks about this. He is not usually brief lol but his videos are allowing me to build the most amazing connection with a difficult young Connie mare I own.
Applying the methods he describes does need the human involved to be able to read and respond to the horse they are working with - and be in control of themselves, but even in my early attempts results have been profound.
He is not just another cowboy and is well worth investigating.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Short term - he's not feral - you can get near enough to touch his chin & he will eat food? Can your vet prescribe an in food sedative that would enable you to treat his wound without physical restraint?

Long term- what is the plan for his future? What do you need him to do?

 

[Arizona120]

100% agree with taking it slowly and building connection. A little more context - sorry I really should have included more info in my first post, new to this! - I've working with this colt and his brother for about a year now (probably once or twice week, that's just as much time as I've had). They used to be completely untouchable but I used clicker training to first initiate an interact, teaching them to target. From there I moved on to targeting a halter and gradually being able to halter and then lead them as well as getting them used to being touched and handled. Their feet were absolutely atrocious and they'd previously had very bad experiences with the farrier so most of my focus has been on handling their feet. It took a few months, but we've been able to start trimming them regularly and they have both been super about having their feet done.

Where it went wrong with this colt was a couple weeks back. I'd started introducing some basic pressure and release exercises and was asking him to yield his hindquarters away from me when he spooked at something and came jumping sideways towards me. I'd stepped back to get out of the way so he didn't hurt me when he started bolting forward and I just lost grip of the leadrope. It's probably the worst experience around horses I've ever witnessed, he went totally blind, running and getting caught up in the lunge ring fenceline. Not sure how better I could have handled it in the moment without getting hurt, only thing I could think of is that I should be started some desensitization with the rope sooner. I hadn't really had any issues with him being spooky before then and he had calmed down so much from when I started working with him.

Unfortunately he had another similar experience to this soon after with his owner. Not 100% what happened but at one point the lead managed to fling over his back his back while he was running and the poor guy literally flung himself into his back.

We obviously wanted to take it slow after this, but then he cut his leg (thankfully not lame or anything, just a gash on his coronary band that we need to be able to clean and bandage so it doesn't get infected) and admittedly probably pushed him too far as we prioritised getting the cut treated.

That's when I went back to first targeting the leadrope with him and then practicing tapping he clip under his chin on the halter where I'd need to attach it (clicking and rewarding when he did so obviously). I did this over a couple sessions and when he seemed very comfortable and relaxed, I tried clipping it on instead of just tapping it and he still immediately started to panic. It's like this is now a trigger to panic, also not sure if we've unfortunately triggered some trauma from his past too. I think @paddy555 was right and I shouldn't have started with the halter and lead in the first place but worked to to it but first using a neckrope.

I've been chatting to the owner. The top corner of their paddock is narrow enough that we could put a temporary fence to get him into a smaller space. It also won't hurt him if he does panic blind again and he runs through it. One of the colts he stands with is very calm and gentle so we can keep him in there as a buddy. We feed them in this corner so should be able to lure them there. We're also looking at feeding him a sedative or something calming to help. Looks like we'll have to start building connection from the start again.

We've been struggling to get good quality roughage lately so the horses have been getting Lucerne as it's what we can get. Wondering if that's been contributing to a magnesium imbalance that's perhaps contributing to his edginess.

Thanks for all the input and advice, it's been a very tricky situation so it's well appreciated

 

[Arizona120]

Short term - he's not feral - you can get near enough to touch his chin & he will eat food? Can your vet prescribe an in food sedative that would enable you to treat his wound without physical restraint?

Long term- what is the plan for his future? What do you need him to do?

Sedative is probably a good idea! There aren't really any long term plans for him. He was taken on during the COVID lockdown as no one was prepared to buy him and the stud he was bred at couldn't keep feeding him. His current owner runs a riding school which he obviously isn't suitable for and she doesn't have much time outside riding school hours for other horses. Ideally, we'd find someone else with more time to take him on but don't know if he'll ever be a regular riding horse given his past.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Sedative is probably a good idea! There aren't really any long term plans for him. He was taken on during the COVID lockdown as no one was prepared to buy him and the stud he was bred at couldn't keep feeding him. His current owner runs a riding school which he obviously isn't suitable for and she doesn't have much time outside riding school hours for other horses. Ideally, we'd find someone else with more time to take him on but don't know if he'll ever be a regular riding horse given his past.

I'm going to be the first to mention the elephant in the room. He is very damaged and doesn't have a safe place in the world. It would not be wrong to have him PTS.

At least, if you go down the sedative route, while he is sedated could he also be gelded? He would have more homing options then. He needs to find someone with a big heart and a lot of patience...and at the moment, someone who also hasn't got mares.

 

[marmalade76]

I think I'd be cutting my losses on this one, sounds like he's just too messed up to ever live a comfortable life.