horse using strength against you

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ellis9905

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so i have a problem, i have a22yr old 14.2hh hw cob, hes been on loan to me since august . He has an awful bad habit- when being led ( in or out or to be tied up, or grazed in hand) if he decides he wants to go else where, he'll just barge off- rips lead rope straight thru your hands and buggers off :( fortunatly were on a gated yard.

he had done this a few times in the previous weeks i had had him, usually headed for first patch of grass,id go collect him back and hed be all meek and mild- however he did this last week and almost mowed my daughter down who was leading her pony into the stables ahead of us.

today he did it to 4 of us. everytime someone caught him he would stand for a couple of mins and then do it again.

he just sets his neck, pulls like a train and off he goes.

the first time he did this we reverted to leading in and out in his controller headcollar- like a normal headcollar but has an extra rope like piece that runs thru bottom ring of headcollar, up over the poll and back down the other side- the leadrope is then clipped to this .

He still runs off despite wearing this- today really bothered me as there are children on our yard and the old gentleman who owns the land- my boy when he tanks off doesnt seem to care who or what he runs over! luckily no children or elderly round today.

im feeling very despondant with things today, hes 22 yrs old- is he likely to change or is this the result of being allowed to get away with it for a long time??

i also heard today that he has in fact been out on loan several times in previous yrs and been returned- once for persistently jumping out of his stable, another home for his bolshy behaviour ( i was under the impression from owner she had had him 18 yrs- no mention of his being on loan to various homes in this time!)

not sure what to try to improve this situation?? or if i am even the best person for job :(

feeling really blue now

he has, 24/7 turnout, plenty of hay, feed, company etc.... not lacking on any creature comforts- just a s**t!!

:(
 
I would be tempted to do plenty of ground work, to get him understanding some boundaries. One of which is that when being led he does not overtake, even when you stop walking. This will also get him understanding that the halter you use tightens when he shows negative behaviour but loosens when he is where you want him. They do need to be trained to understand the pressure release thing as far as the halter is concerned.

There are for basic foundation things that I like a horse to understand, these are START/STOP/BACK UP/STAND.

Here are some guidelines for you to have a go at.


HALTER WORK :

Start
To begin with, stand next to your horse’s head, give him a little stroke and then walk around his nose and circle to the right. Remember to walk confidently and have a nice loose rope between you and your horse, do not hold under the chin. He should start to walk with you. If not, don’t stop and wait, keep walking and he will feel the pressure of the rope tightening, if this happens be sure to release any pressure as soon as he moves. Do this a few times in each direction, to really get your horse understanding that when you move he moves. This is the start of showing him that you are an effective leader in whom he can have confidence.
Generally speaking the horse needs to have his nose at or just behind your shoulder when being led.. If he gets in front ask him back by applying pressure to the lead rope, be effective when doing this, but release the pressure and give him a stroke as soon as the horse is back where he should be.

Stop
Ideally your horse should stop when you stop without overtaking or bumping into you. So we need to set a boundary regarding our space. To test this, simply walk along leading your horse on a nice loose rope and then stop. If he overtakes or bumps you, immediately back him up a step and release any pressure when he has done so. Of course, if he does stop nicely give him a stroke. Another way is to ask your horse to stop quite firmly when you stop (3 times) and see if he picks it up this way, don’t forget to reward your horse with a nice head rub or stroke when he gets it right

Back Up
Stand on the near side of your horse, a little in front of him, facing his tail, holding the rope with your left hand near the clip under your horse’s chin. As you take a step towards the back of your horse, apply some pressure to the lead rope, sometimes a jerky on/off pressure can work well. If your horse takes a step backwards, or even attempts to, release the pressure and praise him. Very soon he will be moving backwards willingly with light pressure. We are only looking for two or three steps.

Stand
Using a long lead rope, stand directly in front of your horse, facing his nose. Adopt an assertive position (Stand up tall, nice square shoulders) and look your horse in the eye. Slowly back away from him, letting some rope out as you go. If he attempts to walk towards you raise a hand, or both hands. If this is ineffective give the lead rope a shake (we are only looking to stop him coming forwards, not back him up). Once he has stood for a short period, drop eye contact, adopt ‘softer’ body language and ask him to come to you by applying a little pressure to the lead rope. Remember he is still to respect your space, so don’t allow him to come in really close, unless of course you ‘invite’ him into your space!

The above exercises are good for setting a foundation of mutual respect between you and your horse. It is the start of getting your horse to understand that you are an effective leader, in whom he can trust and have confidence.
To keep things interesting for you both, you can incorporate obstacles and have a specific route in mind, whilst carrying out the above halter work.

Key notes

Short regular sessions are best
Don’t ask your horse for too much too soon
Do allow a loose rope between you and your horse
Walk confidently
Reward the good behaviour
Be aware of how your horse is reacting
Be prepared to go back a step if something isn’t working
End each session on a good note
 
ellis9905 said:
so i have a problem, i have a22yr old 14.2hh hw cob, hes been on loan to me since august . He has an awful bad habit- when being led ( in or out or to be tied up, or grazed in hand) if he decides he wants to go else where, he'll just barge off- rips lead rope straight thru your hands and buggers off :( fortunatly were on a gated yard.

he had done this a few times in the previous weeks i had had him, usually headed for first patch of grass,id go collect him back and hed be all meek and mild- however he did this last week and almost mowed my daughter down who was leading her pony into the stables ahead of us.

today he did it to 4 of us. everytime someone caught him he would stand for a couple of mins and then do it again.

he just sets his neck, pulls like a train and off he goes.

the first time he did this we reverted to leading in and out in his controller headcollar- like a normal headcollar but has an extra rope like piece that runs thru bottom ring of headcollar, up over the poll and back down the other side- the leadrope is then clipped to this .

He still runs off despite wearing this- today really bothered me as there are children on our yard and the old gentleman who owns the land- my boy when he tanks off doesnt seem to care who or what he runs over! luckily no children or elderly round today.

im feeling very despondant with things today, hes 22 yrs old- is he likely to change or is this the result of being allowed to get away with it for a long time??

i also heard today that he has in fact been out on loan several times in previous yrs and been returned- once for persistently jumping out of his stable, another home for his bolshy behaviour ( i was under the impression from owner she had had him 18 yrs- no mention of his being on loan to various homes in this time!)

not sure what to try to improve this situation?? or if i am even the best person for job :(

feeling really blue now

he has, 24/7 turnout, plenty of hay, feed, company etc.... not lacking on any creature comforts- just a s**t!!

:(
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Carry a schoolin whip with u, nd there r headcollar u can buy that put pressue on em when they pull, n release when they stop. I think it is cause he has been allowed to get away with it. or if worst comes to worse lead him up in his bridle ?
 
Try leading him in a bridle, with a schooling whip held in front of his nose, where he can see it, this should act as a physical barrier to his forward movement. Don't be afraid to tap his chest with it if he starts to get in front of you. Don't let him go straight from one place to another, do zig-zags, serpentines and circles. If he is tanking off to get to his field/stable go in completely the wrong direction, keep him guessing so that he is not so confident in his own ability and listens to you.
 
This is a problem this horses handlers have caused through lack of consistency and boundaries.


The tip given by winterwood are brilliant but I would add a few things - the horses feet MUST move first, then you are instantly in position of boss mare as you are controlling his feet. If you want that blade of grass under his feet then you move him out of the way to get it.

He must also yield both ends - the goal is softly from just a point, it will take a while to get there.

If he goes to tank TURN quickly! This forces him to yield his hind end and takes the power out of the tank.
 
Try a Be Nice headcollar. They put pressure on the pole and stop them dragging you all over the place. I wouldn't be without mine.
 
TigerTail said:
This is a problem this horses handlers have caused through lack of consistency and boundaries.


The tip given by winterwood are brilliant but I would add a few things - the horses feet MUST move first, then you are instantly in position of boss mare as you are controlling his feet. If you want that blade of grass under his feet then you move him out of the way to get it.

He must also yield both ends - the goal is softly from just a point, it will take a while to get there.

If he goes to tank TURN quickly! This forces him to yield his hind end and takes the power out of the tank.
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Excellent advice from both winterwood and TigerTail - but if this fails, get a Chifney and lead him in it. I rarely recommend Chifneys for handling problems but for a HW cob of this age - who has obviously been USING his strength successfully for a liong time, you might need to bring in the big guns!:D
 
I'd use a stallion chain. I'd also have a lr on the headcollar, but I would use the chain if he started. However, if you haven't used one, get someone who has to show you.
 
I would use a stud chain across his nose and also a long roe. When he set his neck and went for freedom I would give him two or three double handed jerks on the chain so he really felt it.
He has learnt that he is stronger than people and the fastest way to get him to behave is to give him a dose of his own medicine so to speak.
 
I have an ID when he arrived he was a nightmare he had been taught that going where the handler wanted was optional and basically did his own thing if he wanted to go he did.
I did a lot of basic lunge work in the school we had a yard rule he had to be lead in the bridle with the line from the outside bit ring and over his head and we always carried a schooling whip and wore gloves. Even though it just across the yard to the gate we would walk halt walk halt across the yard lead him round the long way so he never took the desisions about where we where going if he was rude on the way to the paddock he got taken back to the stable.
He's basically a charming horse who had been mucked about and before long he became cooperative and happy to join the team.
But I don't think you can ever completely trust horses who have been taught how strong they are so we are still careful with him for instance I would not trot him up for the vet in a head collar .
 
Good advice already, I think a bridle would be more effective, I don't really rate those control headcollars and they have to really understand pressure and release, although a rope headcollar can be quite good, still using pressure and release. With my mare I lead her in a bridle (we go on the roads in hand), mostly keep it all loose and relaxed but hold my hands either side if she is being a bit strong so I can keep her straight and keep control, she doesn't tank off in fact she turns into me so I use the outside rein to prevent it. Also I carry a short stick which I poke her in the chest with if she tries to barge as a schooling whip is a mere caress to her thick coat! Especially important for me as I need her to stand at a junction to cross the road!

He may be getting confused if you are grazing him in hand, could you stop or somehow make it really black and white for him? My mare used to pull her old owner about including when ridden to eat stuff but I have set out from the start she is not to do it with me at all.

You will get there, just try to set out early on that even though he has been allowed to mess about with other people, he is with you now and you won't accept it!
 
I have been known to use a chifney when Shy behaved like this - it is only and option if you know how to use it, when to use it, and when not to use it. A very powerful tool, and it really did the trick with my lad, when he just put his head down and went. Only use it the once in fact.

Have heard great things about the Dually headcollar. But in your case, i would simply use a bridle at all times - I have a webbing bridle and bit set up for when we just go out for walks.

Another trick is to wrap the lead rein round the nose for extra control (again you need to know what you're doing).

Good luck x
 
My girl used to be like this l got myself a brilliant instructor who has helped hugely. Lots of ground work yielding to you backing up moving her feet, also as said above stopping so they stop beside you respecting your space be consistent and it does get better :D
 
Goldenstar said:
But I don't think you can ever completely trust horses who have been taught how strong they are so we are still careful with him .
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i think this is what i fear, especially with kids on the yard :(

so torn as my instructor who i respect enormously says hes the bolshiest horse shes delt with for a long time, even in his bridle when on the ground- but totally different when ridden!

im definatly having goldfish next time- no going out in cold, no worrying too hot/cold wet etc !!
 
ellis9905 said:
i think this is what i fear, especially with kids on the yard :(

so torn as my instructor who i respect enormously says hes the bolshiest horse shes delt with for a long time, even in his bridle when on the ground- but totally different when ridden!

im definatly having goldfish next time- no going out in cold, no worrying too hot/cold wet etc !!
Click to expand...

Get a chifney and use it all the time for stuff fron the ground if he suits you in every other way you can manage this issue it's a pain but you can do it.
 
Lots of great advice, but at the age of 22 years and having been through the hands of a number of owner/loaners, whose experience probably differed greatly, I think you would be very unlikely to change his behaviour.

It's a defeatist view, but I would be aiming at damage limitation rather than trying to retrain a wily old cob. If he was with me he would have a chifney or a lip chain.

Another trick to stop him straightening his neck, but its a right faff, is to put a roller and tight side reins on whilst you lead him to his paddock or wherever you need to go. A cavesson and long line (as if you were lunging) can be used with the roller to enable you to bring him round in a tight circle if he tries to run through the side reins. With children possibly in his way, I would be attaching those extra tight side reins to something with a curb on it. He will be using his own strength against himself with the all the breaking tack on, but it is a time consuming and frustrating routine to have to do just to get from A to B on your own yard.

No one will agree with my comments, but, in my view, at the age of 22 the days of being nice to it have gone, it just needs gaffering before it hurts someone. I had a cob like the one you are describing and it was nothing short of dangerous it went into hunt service where is was one of the best they had for years in the field, but on the ground it never improved.
 
We took on an 18yr old WB back in early March, she was food aggressive and very bargy, we taught her manners by being consistent, every feed she wore a dually headcollar and only approached her feed when I said she could, also using voice aids, same with backing up, dually, voice aids everytime, she is now in such a short time, a nicer horse to be around, plenty of praise when she does what i ask, loud growls if she doesn't
 
Older horses can relearn manners ime. :) Doing lots of groundwork and being consistent at all times is key I believe. Nothing to add really except I would use a longer lead rope, 12ft probably, so if he does take off you have more leverage, and always wear gloves. :)
 
In the short term if you don't have a controller headcollar or chiffney, just thread the lead rope over his nose. Works wonders with the HW cob at my yard who does exactly the same thing at times.
 
We had a cob mare at work that would barge out of the stable and just decide to bolt off in hand, the only way to get her out of the stable without her doing it was put the chiffney on over the door and she was never led anywhere without it, was the only thing to stop it we tried stallion chains rope over nose nothing worked except the chiffney.
 
Buy a dually headcollor and find your nearest recommended associate from Intelligent Horsemanship. I know they will be able to help you. You will find the info on their website. I've watched them work with horses of all ages with great success. :)
 
amandap said:
Older horses can relearn manners ime. :) Doing lots of groundwork and being consistent at all times is key I believe. Nothing to add really except I would use a longer lead rope, 12ft probably, so if he does take off you have more leverage, and always wear gloves. :)
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Yes.^^ I've been in the same position with a 20 year old I ride. His owner told me to double the lead rope around his nose but I though this was not dealing with the basic problem which was him making the decisions about when and how he wished to be lead. also I was uncomfortable having such a short lead on him.
Some great advice on here for me too so I'll be trying some of the techniques out. So far I've just made him circle me each time he tries to rush off and I make a point of starting and stopping when I lead him so that he has to listen to me and not drag me across the field. It seems to be working :)
 
The way you describe him is EXACTLY how I would describe how my boy does it...

I tried a dually... worked for a time...then he'd just march on through it..

I resorted to leading him in a bridle, off a lunge line, meaning I could still hold onto him if he did get away, which worked very well... for a time. Then I'm afraid I just had to get tough. I carried a schooling whip and I had to use it. Just a couple of times but it was enough to get him to respect me and everything I asked him to do. I have since been able to lead him everywhere in just a normal headcollar for the first time in years... and albeit with a couple of minor blips, he's been fine. Part of the battle is breaking the habit.

Also consider walking on the other side of him if he always tends to take off in the same direction... sometimes just simple changes are enough to put them off their stride and give you the upper hand.

With my boy he always did it in the same places so I learnt ways of distracting him (treats) and also asking things of him (stand, back, walk on) but they only worked for a little while.

The thing with horses like this is you can do ground work til you're blue in the face and they behave impecably in an artificial situation... get them into a real life situation / routine and they are complete b***ers!! I feel your pain.
 
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