Horse very reluctant to leave the herd after routine change

Tash88

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Hi, some of you will remember I posted recently about some problems I was having with my horse, and whether I should just give up. I've decided not to for the time being; he has been given a clean bill of health after having the vet out to check everything and I am not ready to give up on his training yet. He has improved in the last few weeks but now there is another issue that I'd appreciate some advice on as it needs to be nipped in the bud!

He is on part livery but goes out with the DIY geldings as he didn't really get on with individual turnout, particularly when the mares' herd moved into the field next door to his paddock. He has been much happier since moving into the geldings' field last September, moreover this is what he was used to as he was out with 15ish other geldings where I kept him previously on DIY livery. At the last yard he lived out (mainly) in the summer and was stabled overnight in the winter; it is the same where I am now but as he is on part livery he comes in every night.

Since most of the other geldings started living out a couple of weeks ago he has been a nightmare to bring in and turn out, and it doesn't help that the summer field is at the back of the winter field, and so when he is walking away from his friends he can see them for longer and has more opportunity to think about it and escape. He is fine to catch and will walk out of the summer field nicely, but then as he approaches the gate to the track he will spin, rear and nap towards the field he has just left. It is difficult to hold him when he does this and often when he is let go of he will gallop flat out back to the field. When he is caught again the process will be repeated.

I'm on part livery so it is more often than not the staff who bring him in, however saying that I am very involved and at the yard most days after work. There is at least one day a week where I don't exercise him and just give him a good groom etc, and so I spend lots of non-riding time with him as well, although I do exercise him five days a week. I have no concerns about the staff's capabilities and have reminded them that they can ask me to get him in if he's really playing up, which they did last Thursday and yesterday. He was fine with me both days and on Sunday when I brought him in. Ultimately I know that he is my responsibility and although I pay for a service I don't want anyone to get hurt and neither do I want to be worrying at 4pm every day when I'm at work and it will be time to bring him in! After a particularly bad day yesterday I am going to bring him in for the rest of the week.

I'd really appreciate it if anyone had any advice; I think it's mainly because the other boys are all out and he doesn't want to leave them, plus there is a lot of grass out there. He is generally a bit quirky and nappy to ride in the school but fine out hacking and will hack/school alone without an issue, so he isn't massively affected by separation anxiety. He is fine to handle and not at all aggressive. It has only been a real issue in the last couple of weeks since the other geldings started living out, and he became a little difficult when the geldings started staying out later and his bringing in time remained the same.

Any advice much appreciated and thank you in advance,

Tash
 

Annagain

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Is there a reason, other than you paying for it, that he's coming in overnight? Could you just leave him out and have the staff check on him in the field on the days you can't get there? Hopefully not being taken away so often will mean when you get him in to ride he'll be ok for you?
 

laura_nash

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It sounds like he just doesn't fancy coming in as he rather likes being in the field with his mates. He's got away from someone once at a particular spot and now thinks this is a good option. Each time he gets away from someone the behaviour is being reinforced.

What is he wearing coming in, would a controller headcollar and decent length rope help?
Can you make it only you bringing him in for a while - even if that means him staying out some evenings?
If there is room on the track I would do some groundwork as you bring him in, i.e. get him to stop, back up, leg yield (if he knows how in hand), just generally make sure he is listening to you and not thinking about making trouble.
 

sport horse

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I would put a chifney or bridle on him so that you or the girls can hold him. He must not be allowed to get away or he will learn that behaviour and it could well come into your ridden work.
 

Tash88

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Is there a reason, other than you paying for it, that he's coming in overnight? Could you just leave him out and have the staff check on him in the field on the days you can't get there? Hopefully not being taken away so often will mean when you get him in to ride he'll be ok for you?

Hi - thanks for the reply. To be honest no, apart from the fact that he has to have a feed so that he can have his supplements, but this can easily be achieved by feeding him in the other field away from the other horses, and this is what the DIY owners are doing. I'd be happy to do this and hopefully the staff will be too; ultimately it will be quicker than turning out, mucking out and bringing in! I'd still like him to be in the odd night, for example if I was riding early the next morning or he had the farrier as he often comes early, but I would be happy for him to live out in the summer and have been thinking along the same lines as you; hopefully he will get over his 'fear of missing out' and relax a bit. However in an ideal world he would be coming in at night and I know that really his behaviour should revolve around what I want him to do and what I expect rather than what he dictates. It's so tough sometimes!
 

Tash88

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I would put a chifney or bridle on him so that you or the girls can hold him. He must not be allowed to get away or he will learn that behaviour and it could well come into your ridden work.

I see where you are coming from and agree, but I can't risk hurting his mouth. His reactions are quite dramatic and I think he would pose a danger to himself, particularly if he was wearing a chifney and that would almost certainly affect ridden work. At the moment he is wearing a control headcollar; I only put that on him again yesterday and so it hasn't been long enough for me to say that it is working.
 

Tash88

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It sounds like he just doesn't fancy coming in as he rather likes being in the field with his mates. He's got away from someone once at a particular spot and now thinks this is a good option. Each time he gets away from someone the behaviour is being reinforced.

What is he wearing coming in, would a controller headcollar and decent length rope help?
Can you make it only you bringing him in for a while - even if that means him staying out some evenings?
If there is room on the track I would do some groundwork as you bring him in, i.e. get him to stop, back up, leg yield (if he knows how in hand), just generally make sure he is listening to you and not thinking about making trouble.

I think you're right, but it stems from not wanting to leave the herd when they're all having a lovely time in the field. He must know that they're not all coming in and is wondering why he has to. As I said in my reply to sport horse, he is wearing a control headcollar now. His groundwork is pretty good as this is something I practise with him and so I will try that tonight, thank you.
 

Chloeap

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This sounds exactly like my horse.
When I first got him he would do the same - rear and spin, then try and charge back to the others. He is a strong horse so no chance with a normal lead rope and heacollar. I found the thing that stopped this behaviour was buying the LeMieux control headcollar, attaching a lunge rope and wearing gloves. If he tried to get away I could spin him back round.
I found that if he got away with it once, he would just keep doing it and got worse. Once I was able to hold on he stopped the behaviour extremely quickly. He hadn't done it for months, but turned him out with a new horse in a much nicer field and he tried it on again - got away with it 1st day as unprepared, 2nd day he tried it and didn't get away with it. Hasn't done it since :)
 

Tash88

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This sounds exactly like my horse.
When I first got him he would do the same - rear and spin, then try and charge back to the others. He is a strong horse so no chance with a normal lead rope and heacollar. I found the thing that stopped this behaviour was buying the LeMieux control headcollar, attaching a lunge rope and wearing gloves. If he tried to get away I could spin him back round.
I found that if he got away with it once, he would just keep doing it and got worse. Once I was able to hold on he stopped the behaviour extremely quickly. He hadn't done it for months, but turned him out with a new horse in a much nicer field and he tried it on again - got away with it 1st day as unprepared, 2nd day he tried it and didn't get away with it. Hasn't done it since :)

It isn't nice to go through but I'm glad it isn't just me! I've had this horse for four years and he's never been this bad, but then he's never had to come in when the others are living out before. I have a rope that is between a lead rope and a lunge line in length so will use that today and see how I get on with that; if that is too short I will use the lunge line. Thank you :)
 

Chloeap

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It isn't nice to go through but I'm glad it isn't just me! I've had this horse for four years and he's never been this bad, but then he's never had to come in when the others are living out before. I have a rope that is between a lead rope and a lunge line in length so will use that today and see how I get on with that; if that is too short I will use the lunge line. Thank you :)

Nope not just you, I struggled with this but have a strong and tough friend who helped me. She refused to let go and he learnt that he can't get away with it. I am not very strong and a bit wimpy so got the control headcollar so can just spin him back round if he tanks off!
Good luck with it! It's not nice and quite scary sometimes.
 

Chloeap

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Also definitely wear gloves. I have experienced rope burn too many times and it's horrible. He actually tore through my gloves once, can't imagine the pain I would have been in if I hadn't been wearing them
 

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I wrote a long reply and lost it!
But basically, you are paying to have your horse taught bad manners by incompetent staff, even though you are at the yard most evenings He doesn't behave like that for you. Leave him out.
Be absolutely sure that he needs the supplements, check that the ingredients are not making his behaviour worse, it can happen!
 

Tash88

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I wrote a long reply and lost it!
But basically, you are paying to have your horse taught bad manners by incompetent staff, even though you are at the yard most evenings He doesn't behave like that for you. Leave him out.
Be absolutely sure that he needs the supplements, check that the ingredients are not making his behaviour worse, it can happen!

I agree with what you are saying, although was reluctant to claim that he always behaved for me as he doesn't always and they were dealing with him more than I was! Although on balance he is always better behaved for me. I would say that some of the staff aren't competent to deal with him but my YO definitely is, and she has been doing everything for him since he's started playing up and the other staff became nervous. He was only ever naughty with her once.

I do have a positive update though - I brought him in every evening last week after Tuesday's incident and he was fine, more relaxed each time in fact. I was away on Saturday evening and all Sunday working and so my YO brought him in, and he has been fine. So hopefully we have cracked it. I'm bringing him in tonight and my YO will have to bring him in tomorrow as I am working away again. When I bring him in after work it is about 1.5 hours after he is usually brought in and I think that helps.

Chloe - he is wearing a control headcollar (chain over the nose) and I'm using a longer rope with gloves, but fortunately *touch wood* I haven't had to test that method yet!

Thanks again for all your replies.

Tash x
 

GirlFriday

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Glad you are get to ng the behaviour sorted but really it isn't natural or healthy for a grazing herd animal to be in a box by itself so if you are lucky enough to be in a position where he can go put 24/7 in summer really I'd jump at the chance. Asking him to be on a different routine than the others is pretty hard lines on him too :-(
 
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I have recently bought a rising 3 year old who has lived in a herd in what is basically a cow shed for all of his life. We think if he ever was turned out it would have only ever been in the summer to keep labour costs down. When we bought him, he had to be quarantined in a stable for a week to be ensure that he hadn't caught strangles. This was his first ever time in a stable and he was obviously incredibly distressed and was really tucked up and he really wanted to be back in a herd environment. I've found that bringing him in at lunch time for some hay and rest and then turning him back out at for the night. It's really helped with him break away from his herd mentality and develop my routine without causing him too much distress.
 

Tash88

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Glad you are get to ng the behaviour sorted but really it isn't natural or healthy for a grazing herd animal to be in a box by itself so if you are lucky enough to be in a position where he can go put 24/7 in summer really I'd jump at the chance. Asking him to be on a different routine than the others is pretty hard lines on him too :-(

Hi - thanks for the message. I agree in that 24/7 turnout is lovely but he is coming into a section of the yard where all the other horses are in and so he isn't alone as such. He is happy with this situation most of the time, plus some of of the other geldings are still coming in at night from his field so he isn't the only one. He always has plenty of hay and likes his routine. There are many things that horses have to adapt to when we domesticate them and this is one of them; I always do my very best by him but this is a situation where I feel he has to work around me and what I would like to do. He is turned out daily (all day) during the winter as well which is more than can be said for a lot of horses at other yards in the area!
 

Tash88

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I have recently bought a rising 3 year old who has lived in a herd in what is basically a cow shed for all of his life. We think if he ever was turned out it would have only ever been in the summer to keep labour costs down. When we bought him, he had to be quarantined in a stable for a week to be ensure that he hadn't caught strangles. This was his first ever time in a stable and he was obviously incredibly distressed and was really tucked up and he really wanted to be back in a herd environment. I've found that bringing him in at lunch time for some hay and rest and then turning him back out at for the night. It's really helped with him break away from his herd mentality and develop my routine without causing him too much distress.

Sounds good, I'm pleased your youngster is settling with you. Turning my horse out at night was something I was thinking of, but since he seems to be improving I'll keep him in at night and out in the day for the time being and hopefully the foreseeable future. Best of luck with your boy.
 
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