Horse whispers and lies

When you think about it, no-one (in the UK at least) had heard of MR before 'The Horse Whisperer' (the book, not the film.) And MR was generally believed to be THE horse whisperer on whom the book was based - that was what brought him to internaional attention.

Now why did people jump to that conclusion, I wonder? Could it be that MR jumped on that bandwagon and used it to his advantage? And of course one NEEDS an explanation for how one became wonderful (hence the stories of studying wild horse behaviour), And once you start re-inventing yourself ..... (poor little cruelly abused boy who saw his father brutalising horses and him and realised there had to be a better way!)
 
Any big name trainer you hear of are either someone who is or trains our top competitors or they have a great marketing machine behind them. That is fine, we all need to make a living.

It is how WE use the knowledge we gather that matters.

We all know good and bad trainers. We have perhaps all used a trainer that one person raves on about yet you yourself didn't get much from it. I know I have.

Trainers and methods are all so diverse. Much like our horses and ourselves. To find the perfect formula off the shelf, at college, at a demo or on a DVD just isn't really going to happen.

I think as horse owners/riders we should continue to listen to others, read their books, watch them at demos etc and just pick up the bits that will suit you and the horse you work with.

It is a bit daft to put any one person up on a pedestal, after all they are also human beings who make mistakes/ go through bad times/ change their opinions/ get too big for their boots then fall flat on their a*** just like the rest of us.

The best horse people I know be they be amateur or professional seem to have open minds. They keep their ego at bay and use their common sense.

Excuse the essay.
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The real horse whisperer was of course, Buck Brannaman, who supplied the horses for the film and showed Robert Redford how to act the part.There was a very interesting documentary out about the making of the film, and apparently the author of the book was very annoyed that MR tried to take all the credit.
I took my nutty welsh cob to towerlands to see if MR would use him for one of his demos. He came over and asked if he was a Fresian, which rather took me aback as he was nothing like one. The cob went round the pen like a mouse on a wheel unlike any of the others which had to be chased. MR said he was just the horse to use, but, they turned him down, and I'm convinced that they knew they wouldn't have been able to work a miracle on him. I finally had him put down although he was only five, as he would just go through anything if he got upset, and having seen him buck his way through a stable door, a muckheap and a wheel barrow without any attempt to dodge them, I decided that it wasn't fair to him or some unsuspecting person to sell him on.
If you are interested in horse trainers, read Mark Rashid's books, there are some very good ways there on "outsmarting" the horse without any pressure or abuse
 
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Rollin - I don't know about your mare, but if Eric asked me to relax and lie down I think I probably would
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I was thinking that too! I wonder if I could convince my horse to act up just so I could get him to come help
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The real horse whisperer was of course, Buck Brannaman, who supplied the horses for the film and showed Robert Redford how to act the part.There was a very interesting documentary out about the making of the film, and apparently the author of the book was very annoyed that MR tried to take all the credit.


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Correct - and it was Buck who helped Nick with the book (which came first!
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) Allegedly, MR started trying to claim he was THE horse whisperer that the book was based on. An American magazine ran an article allegedly saying things MR didn't want said so libel action started. Magazine rolled over (as magazines tend to do.)

I've read the book - illuminating (although not particularly well written.) But it's interesting - given MR's penchant for libel actions - that there hasn't been one. AND I got banned from a certain forum for hinting that I thought it was true!
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I just wondered why several posters were wandering on to topics such as Parelli. I thought that they probably hadn't read the book, because if they had they'd probably have had something different to say.
Janet, I banned myself from the same forum.
 
A very quick reply because it's all been said before, but firstly, MR has transformed the way many horses now get started (yes started not broken) and for that the horse world should be forever grateful.
Even if you don't agree with his family story (and who but him and his Father can prove or disprove it, it's just how he saw his life at the time) then he has taught an awful lot of people to try and see life from their horse's eyes.
How many of us now think more about what the signals are we are giving our horses and receiving?
I know I was shocked after his demo to realise I'd blundered through my horse life ignoring the message the horse was attempting to tell me.
We use a mix of his methods and old fashioned common sense training, and it works.
As for trying horses before the demo, yes, he did ours (and rejected it!) as it would take longer than the 28 mins allocated for the job..
Then one of his wranglers walked out to the box and proceeded to load then remove the headcollar in the box with the ramp still down and no partition a horse who had taken us three hours to load at home..
Yes, you could say we owe his methods a favour, I've never struggled like that since!
 
I have taken a remedial starter to one of his demos (she literally bucked everyone off, even just leaning over her violently and meant to have no rider on her, and had spent a lot of money on various professionals who labelled her unrideable).

She was picked for the demo, but MR quite clearly explained to all owners that he chose horses that will make a good demo not necessarily the horses he would like to work with. The ones that werent chosen were worked on by RAs in the afternoon with whatever their problem was or started for owners. I can also state that MR never worked with the horses prior to the demo, he just watched them loose in the round pen for a few minutes and their reactions to his handlers to choose which horses would be good.

The mare is now 100% with any rider and has never ever bucked since the demo over a year later. It is also quite strange the number of people being very negative on this thread that were on the IH forum for a very long time.

I have read the book, but to be totally honest who really knows where the truth is, but for me he has opened the eyes of a lot of horsepeople to a kinder and easier way of training, and has saved many horses from a very uncertain future including my mare.

You will always get the people who knock different forms of training, but to me closing your mind to different forms of training, restricts your ability to learn and teach.

And as another point, Monty first came to the public attention due to the Queen and his work with her horses which encouraged him to write his first book.
 
I have absolutely no qualms about the benefits of NH, whoever is teaching the principles - horses win every time and that is not in question.

It's the scruples behind the hype and marketing I struggle with. There are lots of people out there not jumping on any bandwagons or pulling any punches, but simply getting on with what they do - helping horses and people, and not doing anyone down or selling themselves down the road.

I would like to believe he 'came through' adversity and succeeded in making things better for horses in spite of personal chagrin, but not at the expense of truth and anyone's reputation.
 
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and has saved many horses from a very uncertain future including my mare.

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You can say that about ANY competent trainer! I've had at LEAST 12 in my career where I was the 'last resort' (as in would have been PTS) - and many others that would at best have ended up in a market.

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but to me closing your mind to different forms of training, restricts your ability to learn and teach.

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I don't close my mind to any form of training- but I can't take liars seriously.

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And as another point, Monty first came to the public attention due to the Queen and his work with her horses which encouraged him to write his first book.

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You really HAVE swallowed all the MR hype whole!
 
"You can say that about ANY competent trainer! I've had at LEAST 12 in my career where I was the 'last resort' (as in would have been PTS) - and many others that would at best have ended up in a market."

This is very true, but on the flip coin how many people can also say negative things about these trainers also, just they are not in the public eye, so by the same token publicity is both good and bad.

I don't close my mind to any form of training- but I can't take liars seriously.

But who knows the full truth only him and his father, and it is not unheard of families feuding to make money off of each others backs.

You really HAVE swallowed all the MR hype whole!

No, this was also backed up by the Queen in a documentary The Queen and her horses, which gives a slightly different slant than MR on his introduction to her, but she speaks herself on pushing for a book.

I am not a dedicated follower of any method. What is sad is we do not know the truth, only the people that are involved in these issues do, (there are hundred of autobiographies by famous people, whose ex partners and families then write a book contradicting everything that was previously said or sell to the tabloids) the only real lo sers at the end of the day are the horses when people stop learning off of others due to what really is gossip, let the horses tell us the results.
 
I'm not sure but didn't he have to apologies to the Queen about something i.e not being completely truthful.

Can someone verify that?

And yes this is about the book 'Horse whispers and lies' as I'm sure the whole Natural Horsemanship thing has been done before, I can't stand Pat and Linda Parelli they are the reason why a horse bordered with me last winter by a novice owner was sent to auction in the summer and ended up on a double decker to the slaughter house.

(While with me he was fine, spooky but nothing that time and patience wouldn't of solved, but after she took him home in the spring and subjected him to the 'Parelli games' he bucked her off rodeo style and broke her shoulder and ribs. I pleaded to her that if she couldn't find him a home then at least PTS but no she wouldn't. So don't anyone tell me that this NH is anything but a marketing gimmick aimed at novice people who lack confidence and are being told they can train horses)

RIP Apollo
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Sorry had to rant
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The original post stated could MR be a fraud and the whole natural horsemanship thing is a huge marketing gimmick. Which is why I replied I don't have time for MR but I do Parelli and their NH.

I don't believe NH is specifically marketed towards novice people. NH cannot be blamed for people's stupidity, that horse you described could still have bucked his novice owner off regardless of it being'' subjected'' to NH.
 
Maybe and we are all entitled to our own opinions, but the Parellis are the worst in mine.

This horse was 12 years old and she bought him from a ranch that had used him for years. He was a bit spooky but only needed a quiet person to bond with not someone to chase him round with a lunge line, wave plastic bags in his face etc

But she had bought all the DVD's and thought that she could desensitise him. But anyway what is done is done and I don't want to get anyone's back up. And now I've gone off topic
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Specifically in response to ZS's post... the other side of the coin is this...

My horse was to load (still has his moments) so I had an RA out to me to help. At the time she was actually organising the horses for the MR demo in 2008. She told me that they go to look at lots, most are unsuitable. Those which are suitable are asked to attend the morning of the demo so that MR can see them all. He then, as you say, picks the horses he will work with.

He has something like 45 mins with each horse in the demo (or less possibly?). Some of the horses need more than 45 mins plus the bit of groundwork that KM or one of her RAs might do with it during the day, so those horses aren't chosen for the demo. At the end of the day, people go to see a show. They want to see a "cured" horse and something that has serious behavioural problems isn't going to be suitable for a 45 min demo in such a strange environment. Of course MR is a showman, what else did you expect? He's a business man and he obviously feels that the best way to market himself and his technique is to put on these tours. There would be no "show" if the horses didn't appear to be "cured" of their issue because when people have paid £50 for a ticket, they want to see something.

I was also told that after MR has seen all of the horses the morning of the demo, KM talks to the owners of those not chosen and offers to either work with them herself (as they are usually too bad to be dealt with that day), or puts them in touch with one of her RAs. Apparently sometimes the horses will require a week or two at her yard, others just a few sessions at home with an RA and their owner.

I don't always like the way that MR type work is marketed but find Kelly Marks' work much more palatable (though a bit bunny huggery even for me... I put the book down when she started claiming that all trailer travel was cruel
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). I also liked the fact that when the RA came to me, it was very matter-of-fact and sensible. Parelli, on the other hand, is a different matter because IMHO it is specifically marketed as a cure to nervous, novice riders who think that waving a carrot stick at their horse is a substitute for developing real horse sense...
 
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