Horse with a part of hoof removed... Shoeing question?

[MudMudGloriousMud]

Just as an outsiders observation, the 2nd lot of pictures put on look like the near hind has a very loose shoe twisted under it....... are my eyes playing trucks on me?

In my experience, if the crack is opening during the summer and closing in the winter then there must surely be some sensitivity to grass/sugars?
Have you tried a zero grass/16hr soaked hay diet and seen an improvement in the feet?

Mel x

 

[deoni]

Just as an outsiders observation, the 2nd lot of pictures put on look like the near hind has a very loose shoe twisted under it....... are my eyes playing trucks on me?

In my experience, if the crack is opening during the summer and closing in the winter then there must surely be some sensitivity to grass/sugars?
Have you tried a zero grass/16hr soaked hay diet and seen an improvement in the feet?

Mel x

It does look like that but no he has never been shod, just mud! I have never tried that to be honest, i have had hima few years now so still trying to work it all out
Was going to shoe him but its so confusing as I don't want to damage it.

 

[A Guilding]

I am so sorry the horses in your care have reached this unnatural and unhealthy toe height. I am sure you are doing everything you can to sort this out.

Lucey I take two measurements, toe length and toe height. They arnt the same, the two measurements reflect the dorsal wall angle and help me decide what to trim. Just a thought and not a criticism, some might be aware of the difference but others might find it interesting.

 

[A Guilding]

In one of my data collections of hoof measuring, the mean (average) length of the toe in a random selection of horses was 90.3 mm, or 3 1/2 inches. In another collection it was 89.4 mm, no where near 6 inches.

 

[LucyPriory]

Lucey I take two measurements, toe length and toe height. They arnt the same, the two measurements reflect the dorsal wall angle and help me decide what to trim. Just a thought and not a criticism, some might be aware of the difference but others might find it interesting.

Hiya - not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but that could be me, I can be very literal at times.

I was referring to a post by G Burt in which he claims his horses have very tall toe heights - I stuck to his language, it seemed the right thing to do.

Not sure why there would be any element of criticism? Unless you are criticising G Burt?

 

[LucyPriory]

In one of my data collections of hoof measuring, the mean (average) length of the toe in a random selection of horses was 90.3 mm, or 3 1/2 inches. In another collection it was 89.4 mm, no where near 6 inches.

Quite! You are not the first to find this. G Burt doesn't appear to agree. But that said, I often find shod horses with ridiculously tall feet - they do sort themselves out when the metal is removed.

 

[Graeme Burt farrier]

Blooming eck Graeme, the horses you care for have five to six inches of toe? My 17 hand shirex hunter has just over three. And none of my renters, hunters or dressage horses has been anywhere near four, never mind five or six. With feet that high, do the horses in your care have ground bearing frogs? If not, that would be one reason they grow so slowly.

OK I stand corrected, when you said that I measured dorsal wall height on my own cob, from coronary band to point of toe she is 4 1/2 inches. And yes, she has good frogs.
Apologies as I have only just got in from work.

I am not one of those who is not prepared to accept new things, nor am I unable to take criticism, but I still stand by my earlier results. Unfortunately I do not have the papers anymore as it was over 20 years ago, but I am quite willing to re-do this study online, here, verified, with photographs. I have never, in 40 years shod and barefoot, seen any horse at all renew its whole foot in six months.

In that I for one would love it if I could be proved wrong. But only with dated evidence. Other than that, I prefer to go by my own experience.

As to barefoot growing quicker than shod, Im sorry, Ive never seen this, and yes I do have lots of barefooters, even regularly competing, on the round.
Have to say though, the vast majority of the competition horses I look after have shoes (all my work is protective) and are all guaranteed sound.

There is a certain amount of logic defying regarding barefoot growing that much quicker, in my opinion. For instance, I have a great many horses on the round that only wear front shoes, one of which I shod today, a rather nice little competition pony called Archie. (There you are Julie, I told you Id say so) If barefoot causes the feet to grow at a faster rate, Archie would have had more foot to trim from his hinds than his fronts, but strangely, he didnt even need a trim at all on his hinds...

 

[pines of rome]

Surely if he is working, his hinds would be self trimming!

 

[LucyPriory]

Surely if he is working, his hinds would be self trimming!

Exactly and it's a sad day when peeps can only measure how fast a foot is growing by the amount of hoof they trim off the bottom.

 

[Graeme Burt farrier]

Exactly and it's a sad day when peeps can only measure how fast a foot is growing by the amount of hoof they trim off the bottom.

So you are saying Im right, that all four feet are growing at the same rate, but the hinds are being worn away at the same rate as I am trimming the fronts then.

 

[cptrayes]

As to barefoot growing quicker than shod, Im sorry, Ive never seen this, and yes I do have lots of barefooters, even regularly competing, on the round.
Have to say though, the vast majority of the competition horses I look after have shoes (all my work is protective) and are all guaranteed sound.

There is a certain amount of logic defying regarding barefoot growing that much quicker, in my opinion. For instance, I have a great many horses on the round that only wear front shoes, one of which I shod today, a rather nice little competition pony called Archie. (There you are Julie, I told you Id say so) If barefoot causes the feet to grow at a faster rate, Archie would have had more foot to trim from his hinds than his fronts, but strangely, he didnt even need a trim at all on his hinds...

Why should all the feet grow at the same rate? I see no problem in believing that if feet grow in response to wear then those feet experiencing greater wear will grow quicker.

Neither do all feet necessarily wear at the same rate and I have no problem imagining a horse which needs its front feet trimmed when its back feet are fine. In fact, I do not need to imagine anything, I have one outside right now.


As for suggesting that if bare feet grew quicker you would have more to trim behind off a horse who is UNSHOD behind and shod in front, well I'm sorry but words fail me on that one if you cannot understand what is going on there!

It is not so much that barefoot feet grow quicker, rather that shod feet grow slower because, I believe of a reduce blood supply.

If you have never seen this then I can only question where on earth you are looking, and beg you once more to take time to look at the Rockley blog where you will see astonishing rates of growth in properly stimulated feet in just three weeks.

 

[LucyPriory]

So you are saying Im right, that all four feet are growing at the same rate, but the hinds are being worn away at the same rate as I am trimming the fronts then.

Sorry but no - at no point in that post did I say you were right.

 

[ImmyS]

If barefoot causes the feet to grow at a faster rate, Archie would have had more foot to trim from his hinds than his fronts, but strangely, he didnt even need a trim at all on his hinds...

No he would not have more foot to trim behind because they would be worn from work, the fronts aren't worn from work due to shoes and therefore need trimming. Barefoot hooves grow in response to wear and tear so surely as the bare hinds are subjected to more wear they will consequently grow at a faster rate than the fronts which are not ...surely, or am I missing something here?

 

[unbalanced]

Can't quote as I'm on my phone, but I'm sure my pony can renew her hoof in the next six months. I am sure others will be up for the challenge as well. CP and Lucy? Ready for a HHO study?

 

[ImmyS]

Can't quote as I'm on my phone, but I'm sure my pony can renew her hoof in the next six months. I am sure others will be up for the challenge as well. CP and Lucy? Ready for a HHO study?

I'm really intrigued by this now, my girl is barefoot behind and so would be interested in seeing how quickly she renews her hooves. I think a HHO study would be great

 

[cptrayes]

Can't quote as I'm on my phone, but I'm sure my pony can renew her hoof in the next six months. I am sure others will be up for the challenge as well. CP and Lucy? Ready for a HHO study?

I'm not making marks in my boys' beautiful feet !!

Seriously though, the next time they get an identifiable mark, I'll start a photo series.

Meanwhile I suggest anyone who doubts it looks at the photo record on the rockley blog where they can easily see that most horses leaving at the end of their normal 12 week stint have grown well over half a foot.

 

[Oberon]

Archie. Chronic crack. Jan 2012 (just before shoes were pulled)

Same hoof. April 2012

Same hoof. May 2012

You can see more of his hooves here.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=534542&highlight=hoof

 

[unbalanced]

I don't need to make marks. She has a fascinating metabolism so grows her own.

 

[LucyPriory]

Hi Unbalanced - you are right natural marks can plot growth very well.

Sorry to everyone who has seen the second link before but it is a reasonable example of speed of growth. The horse is average to slower than average in growth. The first link is of a previously poorly nourished horse.

http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/six-weeks-off-hind.html

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/story-of-abscess.html

This link shows a hoof over a space of 2.5 months. Follow the progress of the red arrows which mark two particular event lines. The last photo doesn't have the arrows, but you can see the event lines in question about 1/3 the way up the hoof from the ground.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/navicular-and-metabolic-10-weeks-3-days.html

 

[LucyPriory]

I'm not making marks in my boys' beautiful feet !!

Seriously though, the next time they get an identifiable mark, I'll start a photo series.

Meanwhile I suggest anyone who doubts it looks at the photo record on the rockley blog where they can easily see that most horses leaving at the end of their normal 12 week stint have grown well over half a foot.

This one is pretty easy to track

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/thoroughbreds-cant-go-barefoot-they.html

 

[trina1982]

I've wanted to mention this for such a long time but fear it may be a bit 'too much information' for some, but it's how I explained to my friend how feet react to stimulus and she clicked, and is a convert .

So, here we go...

Hooves are like boobs.

When you breastfeed, it takes a little while for your boobs to catch up with demand. I see the same in hooves. The more you require of them, the more hoof they produce. There will be a lag period whilst the body says - are you sure this is a definate increase required - this is when you/horse could get a little sore. But then, magically, the body just knows to up production and everything settles down again. (and vice versa when you slow things down again).
If you aren't using your boobs in a balanced nature, one boob WILL get better at production, and will get bigger and produce more (high/low heels anyone?)
If you wear underwired bras during breastfeeding you restrict the breast tissue, and you get blocked ducts and disfigured boobs, which hurts like a b****.
Some people, through no fault of their own, find they need a little help with production. Sometimes diet supplements help, sometimes it's actually a hormonal issue. Sometimes it's just having faith that the boobs will catch up, even though you are worrying constantly for days on end (and have a baby attached constantly - but it needs to happen to assure your boobs they need to up their game - bit like walking out gently in hand/track system.

So there you go, boobs are magic and so are hooves. Trust that they know what they are doing! (disclaimer - some hooves/boobs do get a bit lost along the way and this is no failure, just an exception to the rule, and nothing to be ashamed of. That's when bottles/shoes are brilliant devices to keep everyone comfortable and happy )

I bet you won't look at hooves in the same way now

 

[amandap]

Exactly and it's a sad day when peeps can only measure how fast a foot is growing by the amount of hoof they trim off the bottom.

Hear, hear!

Barefoot hooves doing enough work on hard surfaces shouldn't have any excess wall to trim. It seems many believe they just don't grow.

ps. trina1982 I actually think that's quite a good analogy... not a 'boob' at all. Lol

 

[brucea]

Hear, hear!

Barefoot hooves doing enough work on hard surfaces shouldn't have any excess wall to trim. It seems many believe they just don't grow.

ps. trina1982 I actually think that's quite a good analogy... not a 'boob' at all. Lol

YAYYY!!!!!! I love you Lucy!! Roadwork - a bare hoof's best friend!

And boobs are wonderful too. Great analogy!

 

[Alyth]

I've wanted to mention this for such a long time but fear it may be a bit 'too much information' for some, but it's how I explained to my friend how feet react to stimulus and she clicked, and is a convert .

So, here we go...

Hooves are like boobs.

When you breastfeed, it takes a little while for your boobs to catch up with demand. I see the same in hooves. The more you require of them, the more hoof they produce. There will be a lag period whilst the body says - are you sure this is a definate increase required - this is when you/horse could get a little sore. But then, magically, the body just knows to up production and everything settles down again. (and vice versa when you slow things down again).
If you aren't using your boobs in a balanced nature, one boob WILL get better at production, and will get bigger and produce more (high/low heels anyone?)
If you wear underwired bras during breastfeeding you restrict the breast tissue, and you get blocked ducts and disfigured boobs, which hurts like a b****.
Some people, through no fault of their own, find they need a little help with production. Sometimes diet supplements help, sometimes it's actually a hormonal issue. Sometimes it's just having faith that the boobs will catch up, even though you are worrying constantly for days on end (and have a baby attached constantly - but it needs to happen to assure your boobs they need to up their game - bit like walking out gently in hand/track system.

So there you go, boobs are magic and so are hooves. Trust that they know what they are doing! (disclaimer - some hooves/boobs do get a bit lost along the way and this is no failure, just an exception to the rule, and nothing to be ashamed of. That's when bottles/shoes are brilliant devices to keep everyone comfortable and happy )

I bet you won't look at hooves in the same way now

Brilliant!! I want to steal it!! Please!!

 

[cptrayes]

I bet you won't look at hooves in the same way now

Well you're right about that

 

[ester]

I've never put my boobs to the test so wouldn't know

Is it bad that while on a trip to the natural history museum today I was checking out the hooves on the galloping horse taxidermy

 

[trina1982]

Steal away by all means. I just found that I couldn't quite convince my friend that her horses feet would adapt to roadwork, until I said - look, you're feeding your baby girl - your boobs magically know what to do - it's a bit like that. And the more I thought about it, the more the parallels started to appear.

Heck, if it helps one person understand, then my odd comparison has done it's job

 

[cptrayes]

I've never put my boobs to the test so wouldn't know

Is it bad that while on a trip to the natural history museum today I was checking out the hooves on the galloping horse taxidermy

Ester I'm so sorry

It's terminal I'm afraid.

 

[Oberon]

Hooves are like boobs.

When you breastfeed, it takes a little while for your boobs to catch up with demand. I see the same in hooves. The more you require of them, the more hoof they produce. There will be a lag period whilst the body says - are you sure this is a definate increase required - this is when you/horse could get a little sore. But then, magically, the body just knows to up production and everything settles down again. (and vice versa when you slow things down again).
If you aren't using your boobs in a balanced nature, one boob WILL get better at production, and will get bigger and produce more (high/low heels anyone?)
If you wear underwired bras during breastfeeding you restrict the breast tissue, and you get blocked ducts and disfigured boobs, which hurts like a b****.
Some people, through no fault of their own, find they need a little help with production. Sometimes diet supplements help, sometimes it's actually a hormonal issue. Sometimes it's just having faith that the boobs will catch up, even though you are worrying constantly for days on end (and have a baby attached constantly - but it needs to happen to assure your boobs they need to up their game - bit like walking out gently in hand/track system.

So there you go, boobs are magic and so are hooves. Trust that they know what they are doing! (disclaimer - some hooves/boobs do get a bit lost along the way and this is no failure, just an exception to the rule, and nothing to be ashamed of. That's when bottles/shoes are brilliant devices to keep everyone comfortable and happy )

Absolutely brilliant

It's absolutely true as well

.

Also - when you start feeding, it is sudden and constant...your nipples aren't used to the workload and become cracked and sore. Eventually they get used to the workload and toughen in response.
With newly deshod hooves - you don't want a sudden workload to make them sore. So up the work slowly and give them chance to catch up.
Sadly, hungry babies don't give us that option

 

[trina1982]

Absolutely brilliant

It's absolutely true as well

.

Also - when you start feeding, it is sudden and constant...your nipples aren't used to the workload and become cracked and sore. Eventually they get used to the workload and toughen in response.
With newly deshod hooves - you don't want a sudden workload to make them sore. So up the work slowly and give them chance to catch up.
Sadly, hungry babies don't give us that option

Thank you

Although there is always the options of nipple shields for protection (hoof boots?)