Horse with Navicular Syndrome :(

Bonkers2 said:
When I tear a ligament I have to limp, its not the limping that causes the injury, its the other way round.
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It's more like toe first landing causes the ligament to tear. If we had to do an analogy with humans, it's like a runner repeatedly landing heel first (humans are designed to land with ball of the foot first when they run) on hard ground, this will lead over the years to knackered knees and potentially back problems.

Cptrayes, I find it ironic that barefoot is probably the only subject where we agree, yet it is one of the most important aspects of horse care to me ;)
 
Can we agree that a horse with toe first landing is not striding out correctly, and either has poor farriery/poor foot conformation/some other problem [eg thrush/conformation/or other], and if the horse continues to land toe first that it will be likely to cause damage ?
To my mind a horse which lands toe first is not correct. It may not be lame in veterinary sense, but it would concern me, and I would want to change its stride, in fact I would not buy such a horse, and have never had one develop toe first landing, I have always had horses with good feet.
 
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I wouldn't use Tildren as it masks the condition allowing the horse to be worked "normally" which will cause further damage. Tildren will work for 6 months BUT wears off and the horse will be in pain when it does. You can repeat the injections but then the cycle repeats itself. My personal preference is to remove the shoes, look at sending her to Rockley Farm which can be done on insurance with some companies. Read the articles on Pete Rameys site as he makes a lot of sense. www.hoofrehab.com
Lots of luck
 
Goldenstar said:
I would trust my vet on these things.
If we have a horse where Tildren is appropriate I just pay for it that's what I do pay for what my horses need .
If there are bony change so Tildren may well be appropriate navicular syndrome is a whole spectrum of things causing pain .
I know you think that bony pain is not part of it , others think differently .
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Trouble is GS, that there no evidence whatever that bone changes are of any relevance unless they are very severe. MRI has been a godsend. It isn't relevant what I think. The facts are that lameness does not correlate with bone changes, (50 per cent of sound horses have bone changes) but ddft, collateral ligament and/or impar ligament damage is found in almost every single case of caudal hoof lameness put through MRI.
 
Palindrome said:
Cptrayes, I find it ironic that barefoot is probably the only subject where we agree, yet it is one of the most important aspects of horse care to me ;)
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Isn't that kind of difference that makes it worth waking up in the morning ? I'd be bored witless if we were all the same !
 
Bonkers2 said:
Can we agree that a horse with toe first landing is not striding out correctly, and either has poor farriery/poor foot conformation/some other problem [eg thrush/conformation/or other], and if the horse continues to land toe first that it will be likely to cause damage ?
To my mind a horse which lands toe first is not correct. It may not be lame in veterinary sense, but it would concern me, and I would want to change its stride, in fact I would not buy such a horse, and have never had one develop toe first landing, I have always had horses with good feet.
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I hope we can agree that :)

A few years ago I had a ding dong battle on here with a farrier who insisted that toe first was correct.
 
Just thought I would reply as my pony was diagnosed last year and I didn't go down the barefoot route. He has pads on and is fed a hoof supplement, we allowed his feet to grow out to allow heel growth as he had none. His feet were awfully flat too. My awesome farrier has done a great job allowing them to grow and then bring slowly file them back into the right shape. he now has concave feet with a bit of a heel (still has pads on as they aren't quite perfect yet). I have gone out xc, dressage and showjumping this year when last year everyone was telling me to PTS. He also had bilateral hind PSD but after box rest and a slow rehab programme he is back in full work. Don't give up and do what you feel is right.
 
Tiffany said:
My girl was diagnosed with navicular just over 3 years ago, I decided to work with my farrier and she was fine. I made the decision to retire her in March this year but nothing to do with the navicular and sadly I had to make the heart breaking decision to have her PTS two weeks ago. Again, nothing to do with the navicular.
I did look at Rockley considered it but wanted my girl with me rather than miles away and I wasn't on a yard where I could do some of the things required for barefoot.
I'm sure you'll make the right decision for your horse, stay positive and good luck.
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Oh Tiffany. So sorry to hear this. Hugs.
 
Kadastorm said:
Just thought I would reply as my pony was diagnosed last year and I didn't go down the barefoot route. He has pads on and is fed a hoof supplement, we allowed his feet to grow out to allow heel growth as he had none. His feet were awfully flat too. My awesome farrier has done a great job allowing them to grow and then bring slowly file them back into the right shape. he now has concave feet with a bit of a heel (still has pads on as they aren't quite perfect yet). I have gone out xc, dressage and showjumping this year when last year everyone was telling me to PTS. He also had bilateral hind PSD but with box rest and a slow rehab progress he is back in full work. Don't give up and do what you feel is right.
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Can you tell us if your pony had an MRI scan and what it showed if he did?

And what the pads are that he is he shod with? Are they wedges, thicker at the back?

I'm very pleased for you both that you have him back in work :)
 
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Hi all, I am reading this post with interest as my tb has just had an MRI after intermittent lameness and has been diagnosed in his problem foot with navicular syndrome along with damage to his ddft and a slight amount of damage to the navicular bone. The vet that oversaw the MRI and is a specialist lameness vet has advised me to allow him plenty of free exercise ie turnout, and has actively encouraged me to give him light walking work and hacking, avoiding tight turns and exercising him on a good surface. My boy has typical flat tb feet on the front, for the last two years on the basis of bruised soles (he has a bit of a convex sole on the problem foot) we have made the decision to raise his heels, first by a graduated pad and now by graduated heartbars. The vet has advised me that he would be best off to remain shod, and whilst fully respecting (and feelign quite envious) that barefoot has worked successfully for many others, looking at how much more comfortable my boy is with the slight raise to his heel, I will be keeping him comfortable and keeping him shod in this way. Along with my farrier, we are going to discuss with my actual vet (who was spot on in his suspected diagnosis of navicular syndrome) whether to stay with the heartbars or go for more normal shoes with a graduation towards the heel - my farrier has said he will fabricate these himself for me. The specialist vet advised that there are too many tears in the soft tissue for any of the available treatments to be effective, which is obviously very disappointing for me, but I am still able to enjoy my boy if I am very careful about the ground I take him over. He has no trouble in the school or over a consistent surface, so I am currently long reining him in the school to start off very gently, and hopefully progress to some ridden work in walk in a month or two - I am in no rush, and whilst it breaks my heart that we are going to be limited in what we can do, I still have him to love and enjoy and he is happy and that is the main thing. The one thing which you could consider is Osphos (google it), I haven't yet decided (got to wait for the full report and discuss that with my vet first) whether to give this a try myself (can only help and if it does nothing, nothing has been lost, in for a penny in for a pound etc). This is in the same family as Tildren but as I understand, is less aggressive in administration (think it is just an injection into the foot) and is designed for soft tissue woes rather than bone issues. Going forward, from my own experience with foot woes, check the feet for heat before deciding what to do each day exercise wise - heat will tell you if its a bad day (apologies if teaching you how to suck eggs), have faith in your own knowledge of your horse and take it easy - better to get back to work slowly than not at all. Wishing you the very best of luck (whilst hoping for the same myself!) xxx
 
ClaireTotts said:
Hi all, I am reading this post with interest as my tb has just had an MRI after intermittent lameness and has been diagnosed in his problem foot with navicular syndrome along with damage to his ddft and a slight amount of damage to the navicular bone. The vet that oversaw the MRI and is a specialist lameness vet has advised me to allow him plenty of free exercise ie turnout, and has actively encouraged me to give him light walking work and hacking, avoiding tight turns and exercising him on a good surface. My boy has typical flat tb feet on the front, for the last two years on the basis of bruised soles (he has a bit of a convex sole on the problem foot) we have made the decision to raise his heels, first by a graduated pad and now by graduated heartbars. The vet has advised me that he would be best off to remain shod, and whilst fully respecting (and feelign quite envious) that barefoot has worked successfully for many others, looking at how much more comfortable my boy is with the slight raise to his heel, I will be keeping him comfortable and keeping him shod in this way. Along with my farrier, we are going to discuss with my actual vet (who was spot on in his suspected diagnosis of navicular syndrome) whether to stay with the heartbars or go for more normal shoes with a graduation towards the heel - my farrier has said he will fabricate these himself for me. The specialist vet advised that there are too many tears in the soft tissue for any of the available treatments to be effective, which is obviously very disappointing for me, but I am still able to enjoy my boy if I am very careful about the ground I take him over. He has no trouble in the school or over a consistent surface, so I am currently long reining him in the school to start off very gently, and hopefully progress to some ridden work in walk in a month or two - I am in no rush, and whilst it breaks my heart that we are going to be limited in what we can do, I still have him to love and enjoy and he is happy and that is the main thing. The one thing which you could consider is Osphos (google it), I haven't yet decided (got to wait for the full report and discuss that with my vet first) whether to give this a try myself (can only help and if it does nothing, nothing has been lost, in for a penny in for a pound etc). This is in the same family as Tildren but as I understand, is less aggressive in administration (think it is just an injection into the foot) and is designed for soft tissue woes rather than bone issues. Going forward, from my own experience with foot woes, check the feet for heat before deciding what to do each day exercise wise - heat will tell you if its a bad day (apologies if teaching you how to suck eggs), have faith in your own knowledge of your horse and take it easy - better to get back to work slowly than not at all. Wishing you the very best of luck (whilst hoping for the same myself!) xxx
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Claire I am sorry this will upset you, but I think that you are being very badly advised to shoe with wedges, which many vets and farriers now disagree with because they temporarily relieve things but in the end crush the heel even more.

There is no such thing as 'typical flat tb feet', if they are fed and stimulated properly, which is difficult in shoes.

Please, please take a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com before you listen to your experts that your horse can't improve from a barefoot rehab. You will also find Nic Barker generous with her time if you email her to ask her opinion.
 
ClaireTotts said:
My boy has typical flat tb feet on the front
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cptrayes said:
There is no such thing as 'typical flat tb feet', if they are fed and stimulated properly, which is difficult in shoes.
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This is exactly the part of the post that i picked up on too. I have no doubt that the shape of your horse's hooves can be improved and I second CPT's recommendation of looking at the rehabilitations that go on at Rockley. On the blog search for 'wedges' and then also search for 'navicular' if you don't want to spend days reading the whole thing.
 
You will be astounded by what you can achieve without wedges. Mine had them for a few months, under same advice as you have been given Claire, but I scrapped them because they did sod all and of course my boy's feet did not magically improve. Neither did his soundness. So, shoes off, no special facilities, feet have and are still improving hugely and we are slowly slowly getting closer to soundness.. its a long haul, but it is really isn't as difficult as it seems. I have some pictures in a thread a few below if you want to have a look. Shoes came off in March and we are both much happier now.
 
ClaireTotts said:
... has advised me to allow him plenty of free exercise ie turnout, and has actively encouraged me to give him light walking work and hacking, avoiding tight turns and exercising him on a good surface.
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Your specialist lameness vet is spot on with the above but the rest of his advice is outdated and misguided.

You must sort out the balance of the hoof with regard to landing and the action of the leg; this cannot be done with the presence of a shoe.

Put your horse in a position to fix itself.
 
ClaireTotts said:
Hi all, I am reading this post with interest as my tb has just had an MRI after intermittent lameness and has been diagnosed in his problem foot with navicular syndrome along with damage to his ddft and a slight amount of damage to the navicular bone. The vet that oversaw the MRI and is a specialist lameness vet has advised me to allow him plenty of free exercise ie turnout, and has actively encouraged me to give him light walking work and hacking, avoiding tight turns and exercising him on a good surface. My boy has typical flat tb feet on the front, for the last two years on the basis of bruised soles (he has a bit of a convex sole on the problem foot) we have made the decision to raise his heels, first by a graduated pad and now by graduated heartbars. The vet has advised me that he would be best off to remain shod, and whilst fully respecting (and feelign quite envious) that barefoot has worked successfully for many others, looking at how much more comfortable my boy is with the slight raise to his heel, I will be keeping him comfortable and keeping him shod in this way. Along with my farrier, we are going to discuss with my actual vet (who was spot on in his suspected diagnosis of navicular syndrome) whether to stay with the heartbars or go for more normal shoes with a graduation towards the heel - my farrier has said he will fabricate these himself for me. The specialist vet advised that there are too many tears in the soft tissue for any of the available treatments to be effective, which is obviously very disappointing for me, but I am still able to enjoy my boy if I am very careful about the ground I take him over. He has no trouble in the school or over a consistent surface, so I am currently long reining him in the school to start off very gently, and hopefully progress to some ridden work in walk in a month or two - I am in no rush, and whilst it breaks my heart that we are going to be limited in what we can do, I still have him to love and enjoy and he is happy and that is the main thing. The one thing which you could consider is Osphos (google it), I haven't yet decided (got to wait for the full report and discuss that with my vet first) whether to give this a try myself (can only help and if it does nothing, nothing has been lost, in for a penny in for a pound etc). This is in the same family as Tildren but as I understand, is less aggressive in administration (think it is just an injection into the foot) and is designed for soft tissue woes rather than bone issues. Going forward, from my own experience with foot woes, check the feet for heat before deciding what to do each day exercise wise - heat will tell you if its a bad day (apologies if teaching you how to suck eggs), have faith in your own knowledge of your horse and take it easy - better to get back to work slowly than not at all. Wishing you the very best of luck (whilst hoping for the same myself!) xxx
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Education is the key to success: management, diet, execise, farrierry/trimming/intervention/non intervention.
Please be aware that most farriers are trained to shoe horses first and foremost, a good farrier is interested in your horse's wellbeing, but not all embrace a holistic approach, the same can be said for vets.
Many of the horses on re hab at Rockley have gone through one or more of the above procedures, and it has not worked. There is no silver bullet.
 
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ClaireTotts said:
Hi all, I am reading this post with interest as my tb has just had an MRI after intermittent lameness and has been diagnosed in his problem foot with navicular syndrome along with damage to his ddft and a slight amount of damage to the navicular bone. The vet that oversaw the MRI and is a specialist lameness vet has advised me to allow him plenty of free exercise ie turnout, and has actively encouraged me to give him light walking work and hacking, avoiding tight turns and exercising him on a good surface. My boy has typical flat tb feet on the front, for the last two years on the basis of bruised soles (he has a bit of a convex sole on the problem foot) we have made the decision to raise his heels, first by a graduated pad and now by graduated heartbars. The vet has advised me that he would be best off to remain shod, and whilst fully respecting (and feelign quite envious) that barefoot has worked successfully for many others, looking at how much more comfortable my boy is with the slight raise to his heel, I will be keeping him comfortable and keeping him shod in this way. Along with my farrier, we are going to discuss with my actual vet (who was spot on in his suspected diagnosis of navicular syndrome) whether to stay with the heartbars or go for more normal shoes with a graduation towards the heel - my farrier has said he will fabricate these himself for me. The specialist vet advised that there are too many tears in the soft tissue for any of the available treatments to be effective, which is obviously very disappointing for me, but I am still able to enjoy my boy if I am very careful about the ground I take him over. He has no trouble in the school or over a consistent surface, so I am currently long reining him in the school to start off very gently, and hopefully progress to some ridden work in walk in a month or two - I am in no rush, and whilst it breaks my heart that we are going to be limited in what we can do, I still have him to love and enjoy and he is happy and that is the main thing. The one thing which you could consider is Osphos (google it), I haven't yet decided (got to wait for the full report and discuss that with my vet first) whether to give this a try myself (can only help and if it does nothing, nothing has been lost, in for a penny in for a pound etc). This is in the same family as Tildren but as I understand, is less aggressive in administration (think it is just an injection into the foot) and is designed for soft tissue woes rather than bone issues. Going forward, from my own experience with foot woes, check the feet for heat before deciding what to do each day exercise wise - heat will tell you if its a bad day (apologies if teaching you how to suck eggs), have faith in your own knowledge of your horse and take it easy - better to get back to work slowly than not at all. Wishing you the very best of luck (whilst hoping for the same myself!) xxx
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This is quite a similar story to mine and whilst my boy was able to work with heart bars on, eventually, he went lame again and the heels were severely contracted by this point so, in the absence of advice from farrier, the vet and I agreed that turning him away to pasture for 6 months would be the next step... however, since he was EMS this was impossible so this is how I went down the BF route with a qualified trimmer who had lots of experience with this thing and worked with my vet. Anyway, to cut a long story short. He was completely sound and competing again after 10 months healthier than ever.

I'm not saying it's the only way... but neither is remedial shoeing... the great thing is that nowadays you have choice and two certified schools of trimming if you wanted to go down that route. EPAUK and UKNHCP. The only two bodies recognised by LANTRA.

In my view, nature is a great healer and even if you turned away with just a pasture trim... I bet much of the problem with resolve itself as I believe that all navicular is, is a squashed heel. Heels get squashed when they are not given enough room to move and be exercised to maintain the depth required for everything to fit in and work properly.
 
Hi all, many thanks for your comments and recommendations, it is nice to know there are other possibilities to consider out there and I will be doing so. Apologies also to the initial thread author - it wasn't my intention to hijack your post! I also hope that some of the info offered to me can benefit you also. I wasn't entirely satisfied with the specialist if I am honest, but I can't knock my regular vet and farrier for doing their best for me, even if it seems there are other options to consider. I will certainly be looking into giving the foot its natural flexibility a chance, fingers crossed xxx :-)
 
ClaireTotts said:
but I can't knock my regular vet and farrier for doing their best for me, even if it seems there are other options to consider. I will certainly be looking into giving the foot its natural flexibility a chance, fingers crossed xxx :-)
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They are doing their best, that's what I felt with my ex racer who had ddft, dsil and collateral ligament damage. However the tools they have in their toolkit around various remedial farriery apporaches and some drug treatments (adequan, catrophen etc) do not statistically have a good success rate (between 10 and 20 % for the injuries my horse had) which is why they are rightly being very conservative in their prognosis.

After 18 months and my horse getting lamer, he went to Rockley. He came back sound and I had 2 years jumping and doing cross country until he injured his shoulder and had to be retired.
 
ClaireTotts said:
Hi all, many thanks for your comments and recommendations, it is nice to know there are other possibilities to consider out there and I will be doing so. Apologies also to the initial thread author - it wasn't my intention to hijack your post! I also hope that some of the info offered to me can benefit you also. I wasn't entirely satisfied with the specialist if I am honest, but I can't knock my regular vet and farrier for doing their best for me, even if it seems there are other options to consider. I will certainly be looking into giving the foot its natural flexibility a chance, fingers crossed xxx :-)
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Good luck, and keep us updated! It can be so difficult to go 'against' what professionals are advising. Whatever path you choose, I hope it works out for you and your horse! x
 
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