Horse won't accept contact

[Laura2408]

I have a 5 year old mare who has been recently backed by a professional. I have had her 2 months so far.

She is quite a grumpy personality, typical grumpy mare and does not enjoy work. I am mainly hacking her and trying to make everything fun.

She has had a vet check her prior to purchase and her back and saddle checked and adjusted within the last 3 months. She shows no signs of any other issue other than this. She had a dental recently and is booked for a reexamination this month.

I am struggling with her accepting the contact. In particular she rein snatches and shakes her head up and down. She opens her mouth constantly when ridden to evade the contact I'm asking for. She is quite a lazy pony and naps about everything!

She mainly does it when she is struggling, for example going downhill hacking or when asked to do something in the school she does not want to do or understand.
She is also terrible around flies and wears a full face mask. If I take up any contact on her mouth she literally throws her head around and chomps on the bit while doing what I ask. It looks awful and is really annoying.

My question is that I have tried her in many different bits and she is the same in them all, shaking her head around and opening her mouth repeatedly.
I assumed she wasn't comfortable in her bit but I've tried so many and she's the same in them all. We've tried every mouthpiece I can think of and it makes no difference. We've tried jointed, straight, loose ring, egg butt, ported, French link...she reacts the same to them all. She's currently in a copper losenge snaffle.
My instructor does not think it's a bitting issue but could be another form of her napping to get out of anything hard.

I wondered if anyone else had experienced this and if I should just persevere with the snaffle she is currently in or if I should try and find another soloution?
Bitless isn't an option as she's going to hopefully be a show pony.

Is this likely to be a young unsure pony issue or something more serious? I assumed it was a combination of frustration, not wanting to do work and not being happy in her mouth but the issue does not seem to be resolving.

I don't want to try bitless as she is to be a show pony eventually.

Any ideas?

 

[Sukistokes2]

What your are describing sounds like pain or dis comfort, or ( trying not to be rude) someone fixing their hands. Also with the grass just coming through she will be growing. Yes check she has enough room in her mouth for the bit you are using. Try riding her in a loose contact and riding forward in to it rather then try in to hold her.

 

[be positive]

I have started a lot of horses over the years and have never come across a "typical grumpy mare" if they are grumpy and nappy they are either in discomfort/ pain or do not understand what is required so need taking back a step or two in what we ask of them so each stage is properly established before pressing on to new things, that does not mean the work is boring but that every step is repeated until they know what you want, it will not be boring for a youngster for example to just learn to walk and halt nicely in a short session as they are at the stage when everything should be new and interesting or it should be if they are comfortable and able to understand what you ask.

Your mare sounds as if she is not happy and if she were with me I would take a twofold approach, 1 do all the checks again including looking at her diet and management, is she getting too much food not enough turnout? 2 if nothing showed then I would go back to groundwork reestablishing the basics until she starts to enjoy rather than resent what you are doing with her, I don't think this is a simple bitting issue or a nappy horse that is not cooperating because she cannot be bothered, horses do not think like that normally, but something more deep rooted that requires tackling from all angles.

 

[shugmx]

Hi, i think your mare sounds very like our six year old, last year we had a lot of problems as above but as he got fitter and able to balance and use himself from behind better, he improved. Although still very sensitive to the hands which we coped with. He went out on a two month break came back in last nov and reverted back to to bucking head throwing and mouth sensitivity. The amount of times we got told he has bad back or sore somewhere and every time we spent money on vet, to be told he is fine. Again 3 months into getting fit he improved although always staying sensitive of the mouth. We have very recently changed to a Micklem bridle and a thin snaffle and he is riding the best he ever rode keeping steady contact. So if you can really push on with her fitness, getting stronger will help her balance and borrow a Micklem and see if it helps. Our boy jumping lovely rhythmic clear round at 110 and 120.

 

[Laura2408]

She is actually a sweet mare at times but she is very mareish. She is dominant and bossy in the field and is very ears back at most things in particular other horses.

She is very willing and does what I ask but has been napping when she is unconfident or unsure of something.

She is happy to be tacked up and accept the bridle.

It's likely that I am not the best rider however she has done the same with every rider that's ridden her so far so I am confident it's not solely me that's the issue. She does not do it all the time but only at times when the work is hard or when she does not want to do something. For example she will stick to certain areas of the school, nap, be pushed forwards then start throwing her head around for a while until she settles again.

We are still in walk with short burst of trot. She hasn't been rushed and I'm not asking her to do anything she hasn't already done.

She has 24/7 turnout, company and is not overfed or anything like that.

I will do the checks again. I really don't feel it's a pain issue but it's worth a second look!

 

[DabDab]

I agree with you, it doesn't sound like a bitting issue. It also doesn't really sound like napping, and in any case, a horse of her stage in training is unlikely to be napping in such a strong way without a pain/discomfort issue unless something's gone very wrong.
Pain/discomfort is the most likely cause...poll, neck, back, saddle, SI,.....does she have regular physio? If so have they noticed anything?

 

[Wheels]

First port of call would be the dentist - have her Wolf teeth been removed?

Does she have tushes coming through?

 

[Laura2408]

She had the dentist prior to purchase who said everything was fine and that she was due a recheck in 6 months, it's been about 3-4 since then so I will get her done again to be sure. I don't think she has had wolf teeth out but I can't be sure.

She had her saddle fitted and she was checked by a physio at the same time. She felt she was unbalanced however didn't have any issues to be concerned about.

My instructor has said she moves nicely, she has no objections to being tacked up etc so I am at a bit of a loss as to what the issue can be but I will try and find out!

Sometimes she is lovely, settled and works nicely and sometimes she is awful. I'm not sure what triggers a bad day as opposed to a good day really. She does try really hard but seems to get frustrated easily. Most of the napping has happened when asked to leave her friends as she's obsessed with the herd at the moment rather than due to something specific.

 

[tashcat]

Probably irrelevant but how do you respond when she does it? Our gelding needs a really soft hand, and a relaxed seat when he gets worked up - any kind of tenseness does not help at all!

Hope all gets sorted soon

 

[Laura2408]

At first I think I did tense up. I've tried really hard to give her her head and let her get on with it but sometimes she does stress me out as it can last ages and it becomes quite frustrating!
She's struggling to progress in her schooling work as she won't accept the contact so we can't move on to anything more complicated.

She's improved 100% in the last few months though and this is the final piece that needs to fall into place!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Some horses do take a while to fully understand what you want when a contact is picked up she is only 5 and I presume not long been backed, are you having lessons with a good instructor?

 

[Coblover63]

What is she like ridden in a headcollar with nothing in her mouth? What is she like to lunge and is there a difference if she is bitted or not?

 

[DabDab]

Hi, i think your mare sounds very like our six year old, last year we had a lot of problems as above but as he got fitter and able to balance and use himself from behind better, he improved. Although still very sensitive to the hands which we coped with. He went out on a two month break came back in last nov and reverted back to to bucking head throwing and mouth sensitivity. The amount of times we got told he has bad back or sore somewhere and every time we spent money on vet, to be told he is fine. Again 3 months into getting fit he improved although always staying sensitive of the mouth. We have very recently changed to a Micklem bridle and a thin snaffle and he is riding the best he ever rode keeping steady contact. So if you can really push on with her fitness, getting stronger will help her balance and borrow a Micklem and see if it helps. Our boy jumping lovely rhythmic clear round at 110 and 120.

Just to pick up on this (well done on getting your boy to that stage btw), weakness is still a physical issue. There doesn't have to be something structurally wrong with a horse for it to feel pain or discomfort and it to play up as a result. Some horses need a lot more muscle on them than others in order to perform 'normally' without feeling pain or discomfort

 

[Laura2408]

She was sat on aged 3, turned away and backed and ridden away by a professional in March/April this year so she hasn't had lots of work. She's also moved homes in this time and has taken a while to get used to a new routine...she's very opinionated and bossy in the herd and has tried to assert her authority on me too at times!

Lots of the napping has happened when leaving other horses but this mouth/bit thing only happens at certain times. I thought it was flies as the first few times it happened when she was going through swarms of midgies and she did it to the point of rearing but settled soon after.

She did it again however in the school and seems to have realised she can do it every time she is ridden now.

We have weekly lessons with an instructor at the moment who thinks she is slowly improving but she is very green! My instructor didn't think she seemed like a horse in pain however I will be getting her checked regardless to be sure

 

[SEL]

Does she do it fully tacked up on the lunge? I had a youngster with a wolf tooth that hated the bridle full stop - head shaking started as soon as the bit was in. That was resolved by the dentist and patience.

My current youngster does exactly what yours does but only when I'm riding. Loose rein, contact or anything between can all lead to mouth opening and head shaking up and down. She has underlying muscle and hock problems and right now struggles to take my weight (all 8 stone of it). I had a number of lameness work-ups, but improvement has been 3 solid months of concentrating on building up her core strength and gradually increasing the time I'm in the saddle. She's weak on her right side and particularly stiff through her poll, so the mouth opening and head flicking is a 'this hurts' sign. Little and often is the way forward for us - no point in worrying too much about having her on a contact when she can't use her hindquarters effectively yet.

 

[Laura2408]

I wouldn't dare ride her in a headcollar so I have no idea!

She does not do it on the lunge or inhand but she can be very strong and does not always listen. She will open her mouth on the lunge though the same as ridden but she does not open her mouth or mess about in hand.

 

[Laura2408]

Sorry cross posted. She is quite one sided and the physio did comment on this but said it was very much something that would correct itself with work, strenghthening and time. She's very green and hasn't done a lot so I wasn't worried by this at all.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would get a second opinion on the saddle, have you tried her in a straight bar bit like a Cambridge snaffle they are very mild I taught my Arab how to accept a contact in one he would not accept any pressure in a jointed bit for years, then once he was going sweetly in the Cambridge I put him in a lozenge loose ring snaffle and his fine now it's almost like he needed something to give him confidence, can I ask what breed pony she is ?

 

[Laura2408]

Pink she is a fell.

I will ask for a second opinion. The saddle seems to fit well but I am no expert!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Pink she is a fell.

I will ask for a second opinion. The saddle seems to fit well but I am no expert!

being a fell she will be quite wide some saddle fitters just can't do wide fittings what width saddle is she currently wearing?

 

[Cortez]

She's only been ridden for a couple of months, so she knows pretty much nothing. The problem is not one of equipment, but of knowledge. You need a good instructor who has experience with very young horses.

 

[Tnavas]

I would suggest that you have her mouth X rayed - there are times when horses have bone spurs on the bars of the mouth which makes any bit uncomfortable.

As Cortez says she is very green so may never have been taught to accept the contact.

I would be lunging her daily from a cavesson with side reins. Building muscle and allowing her to find the contact herself and develop confidence. Until she has accepted this work I would not be riding her. The reason I say from a cavesson is that lunging from the bit can cause other resistances. For fit of side reins - attache half way down the sides of the horse and adjust the reins until they reach to the base of the ears. This generally gives a suitable length for the horse to seek the contact rather than be held in a frame.

 

[Laura2408]

Thanks everyone. I will invest in some side reins and do more groundwork.

She hasn't done much ridden work except hacking and one 30min lesson per week as I've been trying to work on confidence as she's scared of life at times.

She's in a wide/xw straight cut working hunter saddle which I have just had checked, flocked and adjusted last month. The fitter saw me ride in it and I had her back etc checked at the same time.

 

[wkiwi]

You have had lots of ideas in the replies above, but I can't see anyone recommending going back to the person who broke her and discussing the issue with them?
We have on the yard a very green (backed 6 weeks with minimal handling before that) 4yo mare who was backed by a professional rider and is accepting a nice contact from the day she arrived and has not been nappy. Of course she is a complete baby in regards to balance, transitions etc. but making progress with each lesson.
If you can't get hold of the original breaker, then maybe (if you can afford it) have your instructor more regularly (say every time she is ridden for a week or two) to see if that helps.
Just a personal opinion, I wouldn't lunge a young horse in side-reins as the biomechanics of lunging has been shown to be not so good for them. Can someone teach you how to long-rein instead (if you don't know already of course). More walking, but easier to teach a horse to go straight and have a soft even contact and better for their joints.

 

[blitznbobs]

Give her a chance she's only been ridden for 8 weeks she may yet not be strong enough to do what you ask ... don't rush her - teaching horses is at their pace not yours what is the rush?

 

[Tnavas]

You have had lots of ideas in the replies above, but I can't see anyone recommending going back to the person who broke her and discussing the issue with them?
We have on the yard a very green (backed 6 weeks with minimal handling before that) 4yo mare who was backed by a professional rider and is accepting a nice contact from the day she arrived and has not been nappy. Of course she is a complete baby in regards to balance, transitions etc. but making progress with each lesson.
If you can't get hold of the original breaker, then maybe (if you can afford it) have your instructor more regularly (say every time she is ridden for a week or two) to see if that helps.
Just a personal opinion, I wouldn't lunge a young horse in side-reins as the biomechanics of lunging has been shown to be not so good for them. Can someone teach you how to long-rein instead (if you don't know already of course). More walking, but easier to teach a horse to go straight and have a soft even contact and better for their joints.

I've lunged hundreds of young horses over the years without any problems, Common sense dictates that you lunge on a large circle, on goo going for a sensible length of time and that you DON'T CANTER. A horse will get more benefit from being lunged without the unbalancing effect of a rider.

All mine work in a snaffle and cavesson noseband as they have lovely mouths - as a result of being lunged in side reins.

There is a possibility that the person who broke this horse used a pessoa! Which grabs at the mouth with every stride

 

[Cortez]

I've lunged hundreds of young horses over the years without any problems, Common sense dictates that you lunge on a large circle, on goo going for a sensible length of time and that you DON'T CANTER. A horse will get more benefit from being lunged without the unbalancing effect of a rider.

All mine work in a snaffle and cavesson noseband as they have lovely mouths - as a result of being lunged in side reins.

There is a possibility that the person who broke this horse used a pessoa! Which grabs at the mouth with every stride

Second this, and long reining young horses - especially if the trainer is inexperienced - is really not the way to train a ridden horse (OK if the horse is for driving).

 

[Rollin]

Hi, i think your mare sounds very like our six year old, last year we had a lot of problems as above but as he got fitter and able to balance and use himself from behind better, he improved. Although still very sensitive to the hands which we coped with. He went out on a two month break came back in last nov and reverted back to to bucking head throwing and mouth sensitivity. The amount of times we got told he has bad back or sore somewhere and every time we spent money on vet, to be told he is fine. Again 3 months into getting fit he improved although always staying sensitive of the mouth. We have very recently changed to a Micklem bridle and a thin snaffle and he is riding the best he ever rode keeping steady contact. So if you can really push on with her fitness, getting stronger will help her balance and borrow a Micklem and see if it helps. Our boy jumping lovely rhythmic clear round at 110 and 120.

This.

Our Shagya mare has a naturally high head carriage and I find her difficult to get working on the bit, although she works well with our Pro rider. I was also told that as her back gets stronger it will be easier for her to work in a better outline. This is proving to be the case. Pro riders have tried different bits, currently she jumps with a Kimblewick, she is a brilliant jumper. I too have just purchased a Micklem bridle for her - I will let you know how we get on.

 

[Laura2408]

She is quite a nappy and backwards personality, ridden or not. She will nap in a headcollar if she is being asked to go somewhere she dosent want too- I think lots of it is that she is so opinionated! I'm not saying this is the ridden issue but she is not one of those confident type ponies, she takes time to suss things out and work out whether she wants to do it or not.

I have no idea who backed her other than it was a professional although I will ask the seller. I bought her from somewhere 4 hours drive away so it's unlikely I can get them to come and do anything though.

My instructor is really good with her but only comes to the yard once per week. There's always the possibility of using a different instructor through the week.

I will have a look at the suggestions thanks!

 

[Goldenstar]

I've lunged hundreds of young horses over the years without any problems, Common sense dictates that you lunge on a large circle, on goo going for a sensible length of time and that you DON'T CANTER. A horse will get more benefit from being lunged without the unbalancing effect of a rider.

All mine work in a snaffle and cavesson noseband as they have lovely mouths - as a result of being lunged in side reins.

There is a possibility that the person who broke this horse used a pessoa! Which grabs at the mouth with every stride

I think this as well .
However I would get a vet who has qualified to do teeth to sedate the horse an dlook in its mouth at once .
I never ever that the vendors word the horse has had its mouth done because firstly people lie and secondly you have no idea who they got to do the mouth.
If the horse has a thick tongue I would try the myler comfort snaffle loose ringed and micklem bridle .
I would step back with the training to walk lunging in long side riens at first then on to trot and long reining until I fixed the issue in the early training .i would get the horse out and about by leading it from another horse .
I would however still thinking there's might something wrong with the horse so I would be keeping a very close eye on it .
I would get a full assement from a acpat Physio at once and depending on what they found book them in again for eight or twelve weeks .
However if the Physio found any pain that concerned them I am afraid it would be a vet that I would be calling .
Horses do come through training issues and you just have to graft to get them to where you want but with a horses like this you need to be always thinking what's the reason is something that right.