Horsebox engine (iveco) advice please...

kerilli

kerilli

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In the ongoing saga of my horsebox, I seem to be surrounded by rip-off merchants. I've come to the conclusion that I must sound like a 12 year old billionairess on the phone. I haven't authorised anyone to do anything yet, so my lovely horsebox is still sitting there in a sorry blown-engine state. the quotes are coming down but i'm getting so much totally conflicting advice that I want to cry or tear my hear out.
If any ford-iveco engine experts could advise, so that when I go in to tackle the garage I have some more idea of what I'm trying to talk about, I'd really really appreciate it. Thankyou.

story so far:
lovely Solitaire 3-horse & living body on an 04 Iveco tector chassis. Cost a chuffing fortune 2 yrs ago. Regular runs, didn't sit all winter doing nothing, it was taken out for a run every week or so even when no horses needed moving (as mechanics advised.)
I've spent a LOT of money with garage A, every year. About £1000 last year, over £500 this spring, over £1200 in June for a full service and to get it through its Plating. Every time there was the slightest concern with it, I got them out.
It ran beautifully a few times after the plating, then took it out, fine, left it an hour or so, trundled out of driveway to come home and it suddenly overrevved mentally. Pulled over, turned it off immediately. Waited a bit, it wouldn't restart. I checked the oil level immediately and it was fine. Rescue guy couldn't get it going, thought it might be the turbo but then decided it wasn't. gave up.
Got it towed back to garage A, as they were only an hour away and I trusted them... :(
They tried to start it, replaced injectors (1 was melted, 1 had snapped off), got it going, left it to run for 5 mins and it blew up, blew a rod straight through the engine block.
They said the sump was full of oil and unburnt diesel, that there must have been a faulty injector. BUT the Engine Management System light, which had been dicking around all last year and this spring (hence hefty bills... and they'd advised me to 'ignore it', advice which I hadn't taken!) hadn't come on. Surely it would have, with a faulty injector. Also, there was no loss of power, which I've been told there should have been with a faulty injector...
So...
I think garage A have ****ed up royally, basically.
What do you think?
I've been told this is seriously unusual in a well-maintained '04 iveco tector engine. They're supposed to be workhorses. (This is the third Ford Cargo horsebox i've had, the other 2 have done over 10 years each before I sold them for a newer model (still running beautifully), and I've never had anything like this happen.)
Garage A have quoted me £3.5k for labour to put in a replacement engine. Eeek. Engine to cost £3k minimum, up to £8k for a new one from Iveco... plus labour. (It's a non-tilt cab.)
I have much lower quotes for the labour elsewhere now, btw. At £50 ish an hour, they're saying it'll take over 70 hours to drop the front axle, remove the old one, and fit a new engine... Is this vaguely fair, or in 'totally taking the mickey' territory?
I've found a replacement engine for £1k, btw.
Someone who sounded very trustworthy, and was recommended, has a ramp to be able to drop the front axle out to get the new engine in (NEVER buy a non-tilt cab horsebox peeps), quoted me £2.5k for fitting a recon engine, warranted for 3 months... but then added another £1k when he realised it was a Tector engine. SO... the other engine was free, was it? Aaaaaarrrrggggghhhhh.
A few people have said to stick it on a new cab chassis, and sell the old one for scrap. Cost would be similar, about £1k for the body swap actually. Thoughts?
I've been told that if the Engine Management System has a fault, then a new engine might not cure the problem, and the same could happen again...
Someone else said, make this one into a tilt-cab. Cost, £1,300.
But, Solitaire said that can't be done, the body's fitted too close, mechanics couldn't lift the engine out upwards even if cab tilted, because of the body.
Someone else has told me that is total bull****.
I really want to sit down and cry about this. Again.
SO, any advice, please, really really hugely appreciated. Any tame mechanics, please, come on down...
Cappucinno and cookies if you got this far.
 
From what you say, it would make more sense to swap the body onto a new chassis - will anyone be able to guarantee that the problems won't re occur with the original one? Sounds like you have been really unlucky and got a bad'n.
 
AFAIK and I have been out of the Commercial Vehicle job for a good while now (thank God!), they can't lift the engine out of the bay from the top anyway, they would have to drop it out of the bottom, so I wouldn't worry about that just know.
IMO I would suggest that Garage A are actually partially liable for the level of damage to the engine, IME when there is a risk of running things 'until they fail' or testing under 'controlled destruction' they must notify you first, and often they will ask you sign a disclaimer.
It does sound to me like a possible fuel pump/injector issue, you might not necessarily lose power, but I would perhaps speak to your insurance company and check out your legal cover, it might be that a sternly worded letter could save you an arm and a leg!
Not something I would be hugely keen on but in this instance I think you need resolution rather than more problems.
 
kerilli said:
Yes, I've spoken to insurance company already, they've sent out an assessor, i'm waiting to hear back.
Thankyou.
Click to expand...

Are they looking at it from a 'liability' point of view?
IME of being a supplier, we were quite often held liable for other parts that failed because of ours failing (I.e we built radiators, if the radiator failed the engine overheated, we would occasionally have to stump for engines and fitting labour, not so bad on wagons but on industrial plant actually quite scary!)
 
sorry to hear this and its not funny that people are still getting ripped off with these crappy non tilt conversions... maybe the muppets that "built it" should pay for the extra labour!! its very difficult to know from a distance what actully caused your engine to fail but most likely what finaly caused it to blow was running on its own oil im guessing it got diesel into it raising the level to the point it got sucked into the air intake causeing it to over rev...it sounds like its the sad end of a ongoing mis diagnosis bodged repair or just realy bad luck ... so... you need a new engine well if the cab tilled it would cost about £500 for the engine swap plus parts.. maybe yes you could get the cab made to tilt however as the builder fixed it down they arnt the people to do it you need to ask around and see if another more knowlageable builder will come out give you a price, or you could swap your body on to a new chassis but realy the cab needs to tilt so in can be properly maintained in the future.. if you go down the second hand engine route whatever you do make sure the people who supply the engine fit it and garantee it because you dont want to have one fitted only to find out its no good and have to pay for another load of labour to swap it again... hope this helps
 
Have spoken to OH who is a mechanic and says that his first thought if told of the over revving would have been the same as the rescue guy - a turbo problem, in particular a turbo bearing gone, which then results (he did explain why by I can't remember) in the engine overrevving. He said that if there were no misfires and the engine was running fine before he wouldn't think it was an injector problem.

Only advice is that to ensure the assessor looks at the turbo.

And it would be taking the front axle out to change the engine.

I feel for you greatly. I had a problem lorry years ago - nothing as serious as yours but it was horrible, it worked fine then lost water for no reason that the garage at the time could ever find, so you never knew when it might happen. (p.s. did not know OH at the time unfortunately).
 
Hmmm... thinks... Full service in June prior to test ,died shortly after test. Fuel dilution with diesel could act as previously described but for sufficient diesel to get in the oil so soon after an oil change,the thing would have been running like a bag of nails.I would suspect that an injector failed open,giving uncontrolled fuel from the common rail.I did say a while ago that the ECU would need to be checked in case it was the cause of the runaway,but apparently they are pretty reliable and tend to fail safe. Turbo would be very likely to fail if diesel dilution of the oil occured and oil/fuel from the bearing would cause a runaway.
This scenario is every mechanics worst nightmare. Did I miss somthing? The truth is that the way a horsebox is operated ,Due to the low mileage and lack of O licence restrictions ,they are not serviced or inspected so regularly. Because they simply dont do the mileage! The trouble is that we engineers and mechanics are not perfect. We do miss things,but the more times we check a vehicle,the less likely a serious fault will go unnoticed. Also ,with most commercial vehicles there is a long ,service track record to refer to.
Sadly ,your engine was as good as dead once it had over revvved. Since they had no way of knowing how seriously it had gone , your mechanics had to hope that permanent damage had not been done. If it had ,it would have ment engine out and replacing enough major components to mean it would have been cheaper to simply scrap the engine.This is exactly the point you are at now after it went bang. I really am not sure that your mechanics did anything wrong. Its possible , but there are also as many reasons why they didnt. How many miles had the engine done? What had other mechanics done or not done.
What would I do, well regardless of the fact it is a new body,it is still an old lorry by modern terms (6 years pretty well sees one out in commercial use).I would find a good competent non dealer mechanic to fit a secondhand engine (full block and turbo) from a reputable breaker. I would expect to pay about 1500 to 2000 for the engine . I would expect to pay the mechanic betwean 35 and 50 pounds an hour . I think your quote of 70 hours is about right(remember,someone has to find the engine ,check it, collect it etc)
 
thanks Mike, that's really really helpful, I seriously appreciate it.
the ECU was thoroughly checked a few months ago, and they could find nothing wrong. That's why I'm so frustrated, really, because I've spent a fortune on it with this garage over 2 years andthen this happened. Argh.
Please, what do you mean by "the runaway", does that mean the overrevving?
I can't remember how many miles the engine has done, I think it's about 130,000km on an 04 plate.
Thanks for the guide prices, really grateful.
Thanks everyone else, too, slightly less despairing now.
 
Diesel engines are governed to a maximum RPM by shutting back the fuel suply to the cylinders as max rpm is reached. If the fuel is not shut back or the engine acquires a new source of fuel,eg engine oil,the engine will rev faster and faster until it physicly cant go any faster because of valve bounce etc. If you cant shut it off or stall it ,they will disintegrate.That is a runaway engine.How did you manage to stop your engine?If it shut off from the key it tells us that the fuel source was Diesel from the injection system.
 
it overrevved for about 5 secs, then went back to normal. we pulled over (were only doing about 15mph anyway) and shut it down immediately with the key, then left it for a bit, then it wouldn't start -damage had obv been done. it was trying to start, just wasn't catching, you know.
so, it did the overrevving thing for a few seconds, then went back to running as normal...
 
kerilli said:
it overrevved for about 5 secs, then went back to normal. we pulled over (were only doing about 15mph anyway) and shut it down immediately with the key, then left it for a bit, then it wouldn't start -damage had obv been done. it was trying to start, just wasn't catching, you know.
so, it did the overrevving thing for a few seconds, then went back to running as normal...
Click to expand...
what acualy happend? did it take off with clouds of smoke sounding like you had your foot to the floor? has it had a smoking problem at any time, the thing is are you going to try and claim of the dealers insurance or pay yourself do you trust the repairer
have they got a good reputation..
 
I`m sorry to hear about this, Can you send me some pics of the Cab, to see if the Cab can be converted to tilt cab and if the engine can be replaced from above, Thanks John

kerilli said:
In the ongoing saga of my horsebox, I seem to be surrounded by rip-off merchants. I've come to the conclusion that I must sound like a 12 year old billionairess on the phone. I haven't authorised anyone to do anything yet, so my lovely horsebox is still sitting there in a sorry blown-engine state. the quotes are coming down but i'm getting so much totally conflicting advice that I want to cry or tear my hear out.
If any ford-iveco engine experts could advise, so that when I go in to tackle the garage I have some more idea of what I'm trying to talk about, I'd really really appreciate it. Thankyou.

story so far:
lovely Solitaire 3-horse & living body on an 04 Iveco tector chassis. Cost a chuffing fortune 2 yrs ago. Regular runs, didn't sit all winter doing nothing, it was taken out for a run every week or so even when no horses needed moving (as mechanics advised.)
I've spent a LOT of money with garage A, every year. About £1000 last year, over £500 this spring, over £1200 in June for a full service and to get it through its Plating. Every time there was the slightest concern with it, I got them out.
It ran beautifully a few times after the plating, then took it out, fine, left it an hour or so, trundled out of driveway to come home and it suddenly overrevved mentally. Pulled over, turned it off immediately. Waited a bit, it wouldn't restart. I checked the oil level immediately and it was fine. Rescue guy couldn't get it going, thought it might be the turbo but then decided it wasn't. gave up.
Got it towed back to garage A, as they were only an hour away and I trusted them... :(
They tried to start it, replaced injectors (1 was melted, 1 had snapped off), got it going, left it to run for 5 mins and it blew up, blew a rod straight through the engine block.
They said the sump was full of oil and unburnt diesel, that there must have been a faulty injector. BUT the Engine Management System light, which had been dicking around all last year and this spring (hence hefty bills... and they'd advised me to 'ignore it', advice which I hadn't taken!) hadn't come on. Surely it would have, with a faulty injector. Also, there was no loss of power, which I've been told there should have been with a faulty injector...
So...
I think garage A have ****ed up royally, basically.
What do you think?
I've been told this is seriously unusual in a well-maintained '04 iveco tector engine. They're supposed to be workhorses. (This is the third Ford Cargo horsebox i've had, the other 2 have done over 10 years each before I sold them for a newer model (still running beautifully), and I've never had anything like this happen.)
Garage A have quoted me £3.5k for labour to put in a replacement engine. Eeek. Engine to cost £3k minimum, up to £8k for a new one from Iveco... plus labour. (It's a non-tilt cab.)
I have much lower quotes for the labour elsewhere now, btw. At £50 ish an hour, they're saying it'll take over 70 hours to drop the front axle, remove the old one, and fit a new engine... Is this vaguely fair, or in 'totally taking the mickey' territory?
I've found a replacement engine for £1k, btw.
Someone who sounded very trustworthy, and was recommended, has a ramp to be able to drop the front axle out to get the new engine in (NEVER buy a non-tilt cab horsebox peeps), quoted me £2.5k for fitting a recon engine, warranted for 3 months... but then added another £1k when he realised it was a Tector engine. SO... the other engine was free, was it? Aaaaaarrrrggggghhhhh.
A few people have said to stick it on a new cab chassis, and sell the old one for scrap. Cost would be similar, about £1k for the body swap actually. Thoughts?
I've been told that if the Engine Management System has a fault, then a new engine might not cure the problem, and the same could happen again...
Someone else said, make this one into a tilt-cab. Cost, £1,300.
But, Solitaire said that can't be done, the body's fitted too close, mechanics couldn't lift the engine out upwards even if cab tilted, because of the body.
Someone else has told me that is total bull****.
I really want to sit down and cry about this. Again.
SO, any advice, please, really really hugely appreciated. Any tame mechanics, please, come on down...
Cappucinno and cookies if you got this far.
Click to expand...
 
Im sorry i cant help what so ever and feel so sorry for you, my lorry's ECU burnt out and had to be replaced. Cost abt 3k :(. With regards to tilt cab if i ever swap lorrys i will always get a tilt cab from now on, maybe dont look so nice but so so much easier!! My lorry is a merc and when the snow metled due to the design of the lorry it managed to drip water through the front grill and into the engine. I got a bill for around 30 hours labour as they had to strip and dry out the engine and due to it not being a tilt cab it took a lot longer and cost a lot more.
I hope you get this sorted, i found garages took me more seriously if my OH dealt with as i think i sounded like a little rich kid.
 
thanks applestroodle, i know the feeling. unfortunately OH knows less about engines than i do!

Johny, thankyou, but most unfortunately you're too late, the original garage have just finished putting in a fully reconditioned engine from Iveco.
Unfortunately it's costing over £11k but the alternative seems to be leaving my lovely lorry there to rust to pieces, so I don't know what else I could have done. That's the budget for a new horse and this year's competing out of the window, but I've cried enough over it.
Moral of the story - never lend your lorry to a friend. Very expensive lesson.
 
kerilli said:
thanks applestroodle, i know the feeling. unfortunately OH knows less about engines than i do!

Johny, thankyou, but most unfortunately you're too late, the original garage have just finished putting in a fully reconditioned engine from Iveco.
Unfortunately it's costing over £11k but the alternative seems to be leaving my lovely lorry there to rust to pieces, so I don't know what else I could have done. That's the budget for a new horse and this year's competing out of the window, but I've cried enough over it.
Moral of the story - never lend your lorry to a friend. Very expensive lesson.
Click to expand...
I would say the moral of the story is dont buy a lorry with a non tilt cab and dont let muppets work on it.... please dont pay £11k for a new engine.. you can buy a nice 2005 chassis for less than 5K and im sure a horse box guy could do a swap for about 1000, then you would most likely get 1000 for the old chassis on ebay ...Im selling a realy tidy 04 7.5 ton with full living just needs the living decorated and upolstry and its hard work getting a offer for it!!!... advertised at 12k...
 
perfect11s said:
I would say the moral of the story is dont buy a lorry with a non tilt cab and dont let muppets work on it.... please dont pay £11k for a new engine.. you can buy a nice 2005 chassis for less than 5K and im sure a horse box guy could do a swap for about 1000, then you would most likely get 1000 for the old chassis on ebay ...Im selling a realy tidy 04 7.5 ton with full living just needs the living decorated and upolstry and its hard work getting a offer for it!!!... advertised at 12k...
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, they aren't muppets, they are an Iveco-licensed garage, Iveco have done as much analysis as they can of the whole thing and still cannot work out how and why the engine did what it did. Iveco have discounted the recon engine, and it comes with a full 2yr guarantee, which a new cab/chassis wouldn't. (which I hope will be a major selling point, as i'll prob have to sell it now to pay for getting it back on the road.) The work's done now, I can't just go and take my lorry and refuse to pay (much as I wish I could).
The hassle involved in trying to get it swapped over to a new cab/chassis was even worse, I looked down that route very seriously and the quotes went up and up and up when they realised I really wanted the work doing, I was quoted £6k by two different places for the swap and alteration to allow the cab to tilt. Not much saving there, no guarantee, plus then needing respray, creating lockers and skirts etc on new lorry... I agonised over this for literally months (have been without lorry since this happened in August, I haven't been without a horsebox since I was 17!) and this eventually seemed to slightly lesser of all the evils. could still cry though, it's a lot of money to spend on a lorry which i took great care of and thought was A1 until this happened. :( :( :(
thanks for implying that i've just wasted £6k though, that's just all i need!
 
kerilli said:
Well, to be fair, they aren't muppets, they are an Iveco-licensed garage, Iveco have done as much analysis as they can of the whole thing and still cannot work out how and why the engine did what it did. Iveco have discounted the recon engine, and it comes with a full 2yr guarantee, which a new cab/chassis wouldn't. (which I hope will be a major selling point, as i'll prob have to sell it now to pay for getting it back on the road.) The work's done now, I can't just go and take my lorry and refuse to pay (much as I wish I could).
The hassle involved in trying to get it swapped over to a new cab/chassis was even worse, I looked down that route very seriously and the quotes went up and up and up when they realised I really wanted the work doing, I was quoted £6k by two different places for the swap and alteration to allow the cab to tilt. Not much saving there, no guarantee, plus then needing respray, creating lockers and skirts etc on new lorry... I agonised over this for literally months (have been without lorry since this happened in August, I haven't been without a horsebox since I was 17!) and this eventually seemed to slightly lesser of all the evils. could still cry though, it's a lot of money to spend on a lorry which i took great care of and thought was A1 until this happened. :( :( :(
thanks for implying that i've just wasted £6k though, that's just all i need!
Click to expand...
Sorry it was unfair of me , I hope its ok now and you can afford to keep it and get some use out of it
Best wishes ....
 
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