Horsemanship Showcase

Fieldlife said:
Ooh that's interesting. I am trying to arrange some training with Tracey Duncan, which is proving tricky. She's not quite in my area, and doesnt teach at her base at weekends.
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She can be very hard to get diary time with but is 100% worth if it you can. I'm not sure if she still offers the opportunity to base yourself with her for a few days but that might be an option? She does have an online course which might help in the meantime too?
 
I’m going and excited to see Phillipe Karl, my trainer Joe Midgley and Sean Coleman. I like Warwick Schiller’s relationship before Horsemanship stuff so hopefully he’s talking more about that- he can get a bit long winded I find. Also just hoping to meet folks who like to geek out on horsemanship stuff! I’ll be there all weekend as is a long way so I’m going for it.
 
I’m attempting to create a schedule of what I want to see… definitely Phillipe Karl, Ben Atkinson & Joe Midgley & would like to watch Clive Johnson (some of these deffo clash with each other!) as well if I can as had a lesson with him years ago & have bumped into a few times since plus always good to get inspiration for new obstacle ideas. Also kinda wanna watch the archery demo but then know I’ll just be mad & sulky that I can’t do it locally even if I DID currently have useable horsepower

Really wishing I’d booked Fri off work so I could drive down night before rather than the 5am alarm followed by 3 hr drive that’s going to be a thing on Saturday 😭 (I don’t finish work til 8.30/9ish so driving after work not really a good option!)

Probably need to consider the merits of printing out & highlighting vs trying to do something on my phone (knowing my technological incompetence printing out probably a safer bet!)

Off on my own which is nice in that I can do exactly as I want to but then I’ll miss out on having banter / discussion with another person about what I’m seeing.
 
Think I might try the online tickets this year, see if I can watch all the main arena stuff from the relative comfort of my home.
 
My takeaways from having visited for the first time:

Philippe Karl was as good as expected and if anything better - I really liked the fact that he was always working with the horse and rider, and that his attention was always on them rather than chatting with the crowd like other trainers did (e.g. WS, though I get that the horse wasn’t behaving as expected so he had to fill the space somehow). I’ll definitely be incorporating lifting the shoulders into my boy’s in-hand work, though it would have been nice though to see how Légèreté works with a horse who’s not built for it, something as downhill as a QH or something as uphill and ewe-necked like a Saddlebred.

It was also my first time watching a Parelli trainer, and, to be honest, I don’t understand why people get in such a blind rage about it on here. I can see how the methods could shut a horse down or be used to drill a horse but that applies to a lot of NH trainers. And, yes, hearing common sense horsemanship repackaged as games/zones is jarring, but then, again, a lot of trainers are doing that by creating “their way” that you can only learn by doing their online subscriptions. I know why people dislike the Parellis themselves, and the sentiment there is very understandable, but - based on what I saw today - I’m no longer inclined to dislike a trainer solely because they label themselves as being in the Parelli school. Ultimately, it’s all just tools to add to the toolbox.

I was a little disappointed with the clicker training - not that I think the trainers are bad by any means, and I realise it’s difficult for a clicker trainer to find a demo horse that’s able to cope with these sorts of environments, plus the fact that they have to tailor to a general audience - but I would have liked to see more than “introduction to R+” on offer, not just for those of us who’re already working regularly with R+ and are interested in the academic side and improving mechanics, but also because showing how you’d use it to shape more advanced behaviours would be useful in countering the stereotype that R+ is just for leisure ponies to learn to touch a cone and isn’t for the serious sport horses. (Read as: I really want a UK version of ClickerExpo.) Having said that, Ben Atkinson talking about using a clicker alongside R- will hopefully have done something to raise its profile, and what he said about using a target to get a larger/more open Spanish walk was interesting.

On a separate note, and maybe I’m being an anti-social grump, but I was surprised by the number of people who were happy to chat to one another while a demo was ongoing. “You can see the change in the horse” “he has such a way with horses that’s why I’m going to get him to start mine” is not insightful commentary that needs to be shared with your friend right this very second. Save it for the journey home, or at least the breaks. It’s hard enough hearing in the Education Arena/Talk Tent as is without people’s nattering, and surely the focus should be on learning not socialising?

And on an even more grumpy and judgemental note - I don’t know how people (spectators, not presenters) aren’t embarassed to be walking around in Western boots and a Steston. You’re not a cowpoke in rural Texas, you’re a bloke surrounded by Equidrys in f*cking Bedfordshire.
 
stangs said:
My takeaways from having visited for the first time:

Philippe Karl was as good as expected and if anything better - I really liked the fact that he was always working with the horse and rider, and that his attention was always on them rather than chatting with the crowd like other trainers did (e.g. WS, though I get that the horse wasn’t behaving as expected so he had to fill the space somehow). I’ll definitely be incorporating lifting the shoulders into my boy’s in-hand work, though it would have been nice though to see how Légèreté works with a horse who’s not built for it, something as downhill as a QH or something as uphill and ewe-necked like a Saddlebred.

It was also my first time watching a Parelli trainer, and, to be honest, I don’t understand why people get in such a blind rage about it on here. I can see how the methods could shut a horse down or be used to drill a horse but that applies to a lot of NH trainers. And, yes, hearing common sense horsemanship repackaged as games/zones is jarring, but then, again, a lot of trainers are doing that by creating “their way” that you can only learn by doing their online subscriptions. I know why people dislike the Parellis themselves, and the sentiment there is very understandable, but - based on what I saw today - I’m no longer inclined to dislike a trainer solely because they label themselves as being in the Parelli school. Ultimately, it’s all just tools to add to the toolbox.

I was a little disappointed with the clicker training - not that I think the trainers are bad by any means, and I realise it’s difficult for a clicker trainer to find a demo horse that’s able to cope with these sorts of environments, plus the fact that they have to tailor to a general audience - but I would have liked to see more than “introduction to R+” on offer, not just for those of us who’re already working regularly with R+ and are interested in the academic side and improving mechanics, but also because showing how you’d use it to shape more advanced behaviours would be useful in countering the stereotype that R+ is just for leisure ponies to learn to touch a cone and isn’t for the serious sport horses. (Read as: I really want a UK version of ClickerExpo.) Having said that, Ben Atkinson talking about using a clicker alongside R- will hopefully have done something to raise its profile, and what he said about using a target to get a larger/more open Spanish walk was interesting.

On a separate note, and maybe I’m being an anti-social grump, but I was surprised by the number of people who were happy to chat to one another while a demo was ongoing. “You can see the change in the horse” “he has such a way with horses that’s why I’m going to get him to start mine” is not insightful commentary that needs to be shared with your friend right this very second. Save it for the journey home, or at least the breaks. It’s hard enough hearing in the Education Arena/Talk Tent as is without people’s nattering, and surely the focus should be on learning not socialising?

And on an even more grumpy and judgemental note - I don’t know how people (spectators, not presenters) aren’t embarassed to be walking around in Western boots and a Steston. You’re not a cowpoke in rural Texas, you’re a bloke surrounded by Equidrys in f*cking Bedfordshire.
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Interesting feedback. All I can say is I found some spectators so judgemental of other spectators. So I guess this comment fits what I thought.
 
Friesianfoal1999 said:
Interesting feedback. All I can say is I found some spectators so judgemental of other spectators. So I guess this comment fits what I thought.
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If what you feel, then that's your reality. I can't imagine people felt hugely judged by me given that I was frantically scribbling down notes the whole time, not staring at people in their various outfits, but I do reserve the right to complain about people who made it difficult for me to do what I had paid to do - listen and learn - because of their chatter. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a Londoner to tell people to shut up.
 
stangs said:
If what you feel, then that's your reality. I can't imagine people felt hugely judged by me given that I was frantically scribbling down notes the whole time, not staring at people in their various outfits, but I do reserve the right to complain about people who made it difficult for me to do what I had paid to do - listen and learn - because of their chatter.
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Yep definitely what I feel, glad no one felt judged by you at all. I heard people commenting similar to you on what people were wearing. Wasn’t really referring to your comment on trying to listen and learn. That’s fair enough we struggled to hear and wish people would be quiet too. But wondering why people are dressed a certain way and judging people on that, to me is not fair or nice and exactly what is wrong with the equestrian world. Sadly many people are like you.

And the simple answer to why they were wearing it is because they like it? Who are we to judge. Plus there were numerous western trainers there. And guess how they dress?
 
Thank you Stangs, that was a very helpful report. So pleased that you liked Phillipe Karl's demonstration. Have you read his books? I did a weekend clinic with one of his instructors and for the first time it felt like I and my horse were on the same page.

As for Parelli - I agree with you there too. I know why people don't like the Parellis - but I went to the USA on a ranch riding holiday and all the horses there were Parelli trained for the guests and if you wanted a non riding session, they taught Parelli on the ground, and it all seemed good common sense and resulted in nice well trained horses. The stables also took part in the Mustang training competition and did well (although they were never going to be guest horses!)

Glad you enjoyed it.
 
I had a lovely time there on Saturday. I went with a friend and met many more. It's nice because it covers the less traditional UK approaches, so I get to meet up with people I don't see all year.
There was a large amount of the UK Western scene there, and there were stands promoting the Western riding groups hence the hats :)
I'd love all the different disciplines that were on display. Archery, trick riding, liberty, classical, western etc and you could spot who was there representing those.
I personally didn't find the shopping quite as good as last year, but I wondered if with it being between black Friday and Cyber Monday if stall holders were stopping at home as they were busy dealing with all that.
 
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Orangehorse said:
Thank you Stangs, that was a very helpful report. So pleased that you liked Phillipe Karl's demonstration. Have you read his books? I did a weekend clinic with one of his instructors and for the first time it felt like I and my horse were on the same page.

As for Parelli - I agree with you there too. I know why people don't like the Parellis - but I went to the USA on a ranch riding holiday and all the horses there were Parelli trained for the guests and if you wanted a non riding session, they taught Parelli on the ground, and it all seemed good common sense and resulted in nice well trained horses. The stables also took part in the Mustang training competition and did well (although they were never going to be guest horses!)

Glad you enjoyed it.
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I haven't read his books (yet - just need to find some money and some bookshelf space!). I have read some of FB posts that school puts out but I found it much clearer to understand the benefits when listening to him and watching horses work. I just feel a bit stupid that in all my work on trying to get my boy more off the forehand in his work, I've been asking him to shift his weight back but not been thinking about the logical step of asking for higher shoulders.

The interesting thing about having PK's demo first was that it made me more critical of what I watched later. One of the main points I took away from him was about having the horse face the world by having their head up and neck out and body straight, rather than hiding away from the stressful environment by going BTV and 'walking blind'. So you compare that to JM's Remy who was coming BTV a lot (and I understand that he's a worrier and that JM doesn't encourage riding BTV) or David Zuend and Jason Webb who were using a lot of overflexing the neck to control the horse (and again, I understand they were working with very green horses so different tools needed, and I still took away things from them both), and it just makes you think about controlling the horse in stress and wanting them to defer to you in times of worry, versus asking them to rise up and be brave and cope with stress 'on their own' in a way.

Definitely a lot of think about, and I'm sure more thoughts will come to mind once I'm done tidying up my 10 pages of notes!
 
stangs said:
Definitely a lot of think about, and I'm sure more thoughts will come to mind once I'm done tidying up my 10 pages of notes!
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Fascinating and love to hear more of any of your 10 pages of notes!.

stangs said:
I haven't read his books (yet - just need to find some money and some bookshelf space!). I have read some of FB posts that school puts out but I found it much clearer to understand the benefits when listening to him and watching horses work. I just feel a bit stupid that in all my work on trying to get my boy more off the forehand in his work, I've been asking him to shift his weight back but not been thinking about the logical step of asking for higher shoulders.

The interesting thing about having PK's demo first was that it made me more critical of what I watched later. One of the main points I took away from him was about having the horse face the world by having their head up and neck out and body straight, rather than hiding away from the stressful environment by going BTV and 'walking blind'. So you compare that to JM's Remy who was coming BTV a lot (and I understand that he's a worrier and that JM doesn't encourage riding BTV) or David Zuend and Jason Webb who were using a lot of overflexing the neck to control the horse (and again, I understand they were working with very green horses so different tools needed, and I still took away things from them both), and it just makes you think about controlling the horse in stress and wanting them to defer to you in times of worry, versus asking them to rise up and be brave and cope with stress 'on their own' in a way.

Definitely a lot of think about, and I'm sure more thoughts will come to mind once I'm done tidying up my 10 pages of notes!
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I kind of think there might be room for both approaches, depending on the situation.

Sometimes it is just survival and controlling a stressed horse from on board and starting safe. Thinking on when I had to cross a 6 lane motorway bridge on board, solo. Over flexing neck to stay safe has it;s place.

But it is not what you want to be training, nor aiming for, nor over using etc. Having good posture, lifted thoracic sling, and long uncompressed neck, and assessing risk for themselves and trusting you being the objectives.
 
Fieldlife said:
Fascinating and love to hear more of any of your 10 pages of notes!.



I kind of think there might be room for both approaches, depending on the situation.

Sometimes it is just survival and controlling a stressed horse from on board and starting safe. Thinking on when I had to cross a 6 lane motorway bridge on board, solo. Over flexing neck to stay safe has it;s place.

But it is not what you want to be training, nor aiming for, nor over using etc. Having good posture, lifted thoracic sling, and long uncompressed neck, and assessing risk for themselves and trusting you being the objectives.
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Yes, of course.

P Karl is schooling for dressage. For going out and about "on the trail" you need to have other tools in the box.
 
Orangehorse said:
Yes, of course.

P Karl is schooling for dressage. For going out and about "on the trail" you need to have other tools in the box.
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Yes and no.

I think P Karl's finished horses were all rounders, jumped huge fences too etc. Would probably hack well too. Seen videos. Dont know if he still produces horses or if he is too old?
 
I was seriously unimpressed by the one in hand long lining session that I took my horse to which was hosted by a well known P Karl disciple.

The disciple repeatedly hooked the bit up in the horse’s mouth one side at a time. The horse was upset and confused. I went to the session with a calm accepting horse who was easy to long line but came home with a frazzled and very suspicious horse who was terrified of being bridled.

It took weeks to calm him down.

Not at all impressed with the P Karl approach 🤷‍♀️.
 
Fieldlife said:
Yes and no.

I think P Karl's finished horses were all rounders, jumped huge fences too etc. Would probably hack well too. Seen videos. Dont know if he still produces horses or if he is too old?
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I don't know about PK specifically but most people who train with him have all rounders
 
Tiddlypom said:
I was seriously unimpressed by the one in hand long lining session that I took my horse to which was hosted by a well known P Karl disciple.

The disciple repeatedly hooked the bit up in the horse’s mouth one side at a time. The horse was upset and confused. I went to the session with a calm accepting horse who was easy to long line but came home with a frazzled and very suspicious horse who was terrified of being bridled.

It took weeks to calm him down.

Not at all impressed with the P Karl approach 🤷‍♀️.
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I think there are disciples, and disciples?

I am not sure that means can then conclude that P Karl is not good?

There was one particular bloke, who was a bit rough around the edges, and I think had very limited riding experience except for P Karl. I think was discussion if he was creating a bad impression. Not sure if same person.
 
Tiddlypom said:
I was seriously unimpressed by the one in hand long lining session that I took my horse to which was hosted by a well known P Karl disciple.

The disciple repeatedly hooked the bit up in the horse’s mouth one side at a time. The horse was upset and confused. I went to the session with a calm accepting horse who was easy to long line but came home with a frazzled and very suspicious horse who was terrified of being bridled.

It took weeks to calm him down.

Not at all impressed with the P Karl approach 🤷‍♀️.
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I have watched all P. K' s instructional DVDs. There is absolutely nothing rough or upsetting for the horse in what he does. The in hand flexions are a game of patience, waiting for the horse to work out the correct response from a gentle hand action and giving immediate release. I have found that horses learn very quickly what is expected of them if this is done well and I have not had any adverse reactions. The method is sound. If a ham fisted individual with no finesse is yanking the horse's heads with the bit it is definitely not correct.

Edited to add: if your horse had a bad experience from a P.K. trainer, P.K would probably be grateful to have it brought to his attention.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Not invested enough in it or the PK system to report it.

It was the trainer herself doing the in hand flexions which so upset the horse, not me making a bad attempt at them.

Avoid BH.
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Ah I had several negative experiences with that individual before they started the PK training. Not a fan!
 
stangs said:
My takeaways from having visited for the first time:

Philippe Karl was as good as expected and if anything better - I really liked the fact that he was always working with the horse and rider, and that his attention was always on them rather than chatting with the crowd like other trainers did (e.g. WS, though I get that the horse wasn’t behaving as expected so he had to fill the space somehow). I’ll definitely be incorporating lifting the shoulders into my boy’s in-hand work, though it would have been nice though to see how Légèreté works with a horse who’s not built for it, something as downhill as a QH or something as uphill and ewe-necked like a Saddlebred. ....
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If you search YouTube I think there are videos of PK working with a QH & trainee instructor. Légèreté absolutely works for any horse with any conformation. A Légèreté instructor will work with the horse... The pt of the training is to ensure the horse can work to its optimum .. What the horse can achieve might be a different Q ... but as always horses for courses.
 
I had an enjoyable weekend again but came away feeling unaccountably depressed and a little down. Then working with my horses yesterday I think I understood why. I think the experience of watching the likes of Ben Atkinson and some of the others has the effect of making me feel a bit useless. They are so disciplined with themselves, and so consistent, things that often evade me. That's to do with me, not them, and something that I need to work through, and just accept I'll never be that good, nor will I need to be...
Lots of takeaways, and a nice 2 days of horsy self indulgence. I wish there were more food options though.
 
Landcruiser said:
I had an enjoyable weekend again but came away feeling unaccountably depressed and a little down. Then working with my horses yesterday I think I understood why. I think the experience of watching the likes of Ben Atkinson and some of the others has the effect of making me feel a bit useless. They are so disciplined with themselves, and so consistent, things that often evade me. That's to do with me, not them, and something that I need to work through, and just accept I'll never be that good, nor will I need to be...
Lots of takeaways, and a nice 2 days of horsy self indulgence. I wish there were more food options though.
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Oh I’ve clicked this thread by accident and seen this and it made me a bit sad. Pros are paid to do horses, they have the time every day to train little and often. And by doing that with lots of different horses they build up the feel to be able to do the work much more efficiently too! Most of us have 9-5s etc. to work around and will get where we need to be in our own little time… please don’t be disheartened
 
I’ve been nursing the lurgy all week and felt pretty grotty so probably didn’t get to see as much as I might have otherwise (to the point that I nearly turned around 30 mins into my 3hr drive until the combo of sudofed, paracetamol & matcha kicked in!)

Missed the start of Philippe’s first demo due to it taking 45 mins to actually get in (I was not alone in this!) but actually thought the one on Sunday was more useful in terms of stuff to take away anyway possibly due to it being just one rider getting all of his focus and him being able to explain more the purpose of different exercises and to show the obvious change in the horse when things were correct. Really wish I’d gone to his talk about the shoulders on Sunday as well but main arena was running behind and I wasn’t up to rushing about!

Liked Ben’s target / mark demo and am going to hunt down a suitable bit of wood / matting to play with for no purpose other than for fun (there is nothing fuzzball likes more than pawing/ stamping on things apart from eating)

I don’t ride Western so don’t know the full ins & outs of it but found it interesting to compare what version of the different movements Lee Rutter’s horse was performing and how incredibly light he was & how that compared to some of the younger, less established horses (who still looked light & responsive for the most part but obviously were not the completely finished product.)

Really enjoyed Joe’s demo as well. It was very obvious that he had precise control of every footfall when he needed to & honestly the best example of working with a rope gate I’ve ever seen (I mean I’ve been taught to do them in pretty much the same way in theory but with nowhere near that level of precision). I can see why quite a few people on here rate him highly.
 
Landcruiser said:
I had an enjoyable weekend again but came away feeling unaccountably depressed and a little down. Then working with my horses yesterday I think I understood why. I think the experience of watching the likes of Ben Atkinson and some of the others has the effect of making me feel a bit useless. They are so disciplined with themselves, and so consistent, things that often evade me. That's to do with me, not them, and something that I need to work through, and just accept I'll never be that good, nor will I need to be...
Lots of takeaways, and a nice 2 days of horsy self indulgence. I wish there were more food options though.
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Nobody is perfect & I don’t think there was one single demo that I watched where something didn’t go slightly wrong (sometimes subtly, sometimes not so!). Nobody minded, things just carried on and tbf it’s good that a lot of the horses felt that they were able to voice their opinion / make a mistake and weren’t worried about the consequences of doing so.

Don’t know if you watched the chaos of the “something fun” but quite a few utterly overshot the barrel when trying to get the flag in or out and a few more had issues backing up between poles.

Re Ben one of his horses momentarily downed tools in the demo where he was having a lesson given by Alizee, presumably because breaking old habits to try and do something more “correctly” can be really difficult and confusing. (Possibly even more so if it’s something quite established that you’re trying to change). Was actually really interesting to watch someone work through that kind of scenario and get the horse back on side tbh

Also the sheer number of horses a lot of these professionals will have access to is mind boggling. That will massively help them perfect what they’re doing and with being consistent as opposed to the majority of us with our one or two horses.
 
I was there and really enjoyed it. Everyone offered something different and something to take away. Very inspiring and just what I need this side of winter 🙌
 
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