Horses "Faking" Injury/Sickness

Hmm tricky!

I think that horses can learn or be trained to display a certain behaviour. For example, if a horse learns that if it sticks it's head up high every time you go to put the bridle on, if you then give up every time, it could be deemed that you have trained the horse to avoid having it's bridle put on. I guess in some sense the horse has offered a behaviour, you have given it an answer by not doing what you had intended to do, therefore it could then associate you coming with the bridle with it keeping it's head up. Of course that's just an example, probably not a very good one. There could be a lot of other reasons why the horse avoids having a bridle on of course!

I suppose that if a horse learns that displaying a behaviour leads to being rewarded by not having to do something, then I think that's what it is, rather than the horse going aha, got you!

Whether a horse would learn that by coughing for example means they get out of doing work, or by limping means they get out of doing work or whatever, I don't know, I don't see how they could unless they were doing something (specific) and at the very second they started limping you immediately stopped them and they were then rested, maybe that could create an association. I would think it would have to happen a lot though!

Or perhaps coughing, if every time the horse coughed whilst doing something specific if you stopped them, checked them over and took them back to the stable they may then learn to associate coughing with going back to the stable. It's quite specific! If the horse was coughing I believe it would be for a reason though and I'd be inclined to get it looked at if it were persistent.


They (horses) can't really understand what we are saying when we talk to them. Yes they can read our emotions and moods, and yes they can learn to associate words with things like walk, trot, stand backup etc, although part of that is down to voice intonation. You could probably say trot, slowly and dropping your voice intonation down at the end and the horse would slow down. Or you could probably say WALK in a very shrill and excitable way with your intonation going up at the end and get the horse to trot! You could also use noises, you could teach your horse to backup when you whistled something, if you really wanted to.

So in answer, I think you can train your horse to learn how to react or behave in certain circumstances, but I don't think your horse is capable of conjuring up ways in which it can out do you, in my opinion.
 
Absolutely not, certainly not in the way people are describing here. A horse which coughs to get out of work, is more likely sore & glandy and when it's asked to flex it is uncomfortable. Other examples are more likely the horse learning to behave in a certain way to avoid work, they simply don't reason enough to pull silly stunts like faking lameness. It's a bit depressing that people think they do, & that genuine lameness/discomfort would ever be attributed to sneakiness.
 
henryhorn said:
She's in pain, either brought on with work or saddle pinching, a muscle spasm who knows, but pain.
If this were an isolated incident then she probably stood on something that hurt.
Just because you can't find anything obvious doesn't mean something isn't wrong.
Get your vet next time, that's why they train for 7 years and tend to know better than us mere horseowners...
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I wasn't sure if this was in response to my post. If so, you will see that I did get the vet!! I don't believe that a horse can fake pain, so did the right thing!!
 
My Mum used to have a little pony called Biscuit and she told me she used to hack to shows with this pony when she was younger as she had no transport. She was on her way to a show and he suddenly went lame so she walked a couple of steps and still lame. She jumped off and checked his feet for stones and found none, so she jumped back on and kept walking towards the show but he was still lame. So she turned for home and he immediately went sound. She thought whatever it was has righted itself and turned back towards the show and he was lame again. Turned back towards home and he was sound again! Apparently, she turned him back towards the show once more and gave him a smack on the bum and he was sound after that!

I would be inclined to think that (some) horses are very intellegent but don't have the capacity for such sneaky plots! I do quite like Biscuits story though! :)
 
lhotse said:
Actually, I think you will find that you called yourself brainless!!

And I quote

"I am not scientist but i truly have no explanation for 2 events my pony has undertaken, maybe i am brainless, but unless someone else has any other theories i am stumped, "
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And i quote maybe :-) no one disagreed though! but i did get called stupid. Not sure which one i prefer?
 
supaspot said:
years later when I sold her she didnt eat for ages and nearly died of hyperlapemia
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When we moved Captain he refused to eat or drink for ages, it got to the stage we thought we were going to have to move him back.:eek: Then he suddenly started drinking followed in a couple of hours by a nibble on his haylage.

FDC
 
little_critter said:
Not quite the same but similar - does anyone else's horse have a massive bout of yawning just as you want to put the bridle on?
My girl does - I wasn't sure if it was a cop out or whether yawning has some sort of body language meaning?
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My lad has a terrible thirst as soon as he sees his bridle! Can't stop himself rushing over to his water. Evasion I feel.
FDC
 
little_critter said:
Not quite the same but similar - does anyone else's horse have a massive bout of yawning just as you want to put the bridle on?
My girl does - I wasn't sure if it was a cop out or whether yawning has some sort of body language meaning?
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With the horse's I've known who do this I think its a combination of stretching out their muscles in preparation for being bridled (particularly if they are used to having a flash or something which prevents them from doing this when ridden), and then they've accidentally learnt that yawning = delaying having a cold bit in mouth, so repeat it as often as they can get away with. ;)

Flame_ said:
Stupid people who don't know their horse is lame, let alone why its lame. :mad: Of course horses don't fake lameness, just because the horse isn't consistently hopping on three legs in every situation does not mean there's nothing wrong and the horse is pretending when it does show unsoundness.
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:rolleyes: Of course horses aren't always faking it when they are lame on and off, nobody is claiming that.

Do you accept that horses can learn to respond to an instruction? If so can you accept that a horse can be taught that stimulus + response = reward? ...then is it really such a big leap of faith that a horse can accidentally learn that limping = reward (rest)?
 
Naturally said:
Do you accept that horses can learn to respond to an instruction? If so can you accept that a horse can be taught that stimulus + response = reward? ...then is it really such a big leap of faith that a horse can accidentally learn that limping = reward (rest)?
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Limping is a natural, subconscious response to pain. If the limping is inconsistent, its because the pain is inconsistent, not because the horse is putting it on when it suits. Has any person ever managed to teach a horse to limp or cough on command for a much more obvious reward like a treat? Have you tried "faking" a limp? Its damn hard for a person trying really hard to remember to keep it up, let alone a horse with a cunning plan to avoid work. :rolleyes:

When most people tell these stories, they fail to consider the different reasons why the problems might only show up eg in an arena carrying a rider, as oppose to lose in the field. We used to have a driving pony that would limp like hell on very sharp left hand turns on firm ground and on roads with a very steep camber if you didn't go right down the middle - if you avoided these two things you could probably have driven him for twenty years and never knew he had a problem. That didn't mean he was putting on the lameness on the particular days we chose a route with a tight left or a steep camber road.

There are millions more likely reasons which might explain these "faking" horses problems, but people don't really want to face up to the reality and the expense of looking for them, its easier to kick on and give everybody some BS explanation.
 
I walk with the slightest of slightest limps. And I switch legs. But. I am not aware I do it. And. I'm not always in any discomfort/pain.

I have rheumatism in both my knees (I am merely 27yrs of age and have had it since I was thirteen although thankfully it's not noticably been getting any worse in the last 8yrs). It gets worse when the weather changes - I'm guessing the change in atmospheric pressure must have something to do with it and obviously it's worse in winter. I sparodically take super-strength Ibuprofen in the winter but it's that bad for you I leave it until the bitter end, so strictly speaking, i'm not on pain relief.

Fairly consistent weather in the summer and apparently I still limp! I can only assume it's because i'm so used to easing the discomfort alternately I do it without thinking and it's almost like a force of habit!

So I'm lame and don't realise it because i'm not in a massive margin of pain - the minute I do something active, it flares up. Guess some horses might be the same. If they've been lame and limped a lot, it's like a force of habit and not intentional?
 
I knew a QH that would magically go lame on one leg the day of a show...without fail! Then upon returning home he'd be bouncing around all satisfied with himself :P
 
We had an arab gelding who seemed to be in pain when the girth was being tightened. Whenever he was out in the field he was fine and when in the stable happy as anything. Vet was called examined him and could find nothing wrong, this went on for several weeks and after 3 visits, x-rays etc another vet looked at him and suggested he was at it. His solution to check things was to give a high dose of painkillers to see how he reacted then.

Vet gave painkillers and assured us that the brat could not feel any pain at all yet when we tried to saddle up he reacted as if in agony. Vet said that due to level of painkillers he could not feel a thing. Told us to wait a few days for drugs to wear off then take him out and work him really hard for a 2 or 3 days and be very strict whenever he started to play up. We did this and although he was a brat for a day or two he suddenly gave up and went back to being his old self.

Vet said he came across a couple of cases like this every year usually ponies.
 
i have people telling me that my horse fakes lameness or it's a learned thing to get out of work. i don't believe that for one second for many reasons, one of them being he loves to work and loves to feel useful/wanted/needed.

however i have had a horse that suffered lots of lameness problems (injuries) over the years, she didn't like doing work anyway and was always happy not having to be ridden. i think over the years she figured out that when she was lame she didn't have to work so once i knew all was well with her she would keep being lame, no vet could work it out and there was never any reason for it, she was only ever lame when she saw her tack come out.
 
Flame_ said:
Limping is a natural, subconscious response to pain. If the limping is inconsistent, its because the pain is inconsistent, not because the horse is putting it on when it suits. Has any person ever managed to teach a horse to limp or cough on command for a much more obvious reward like a treat? Have you tried "faking" a limp? Its damn hard for a person trying really hard to remember to keep it up, let alone a horse with a cunning plan to avoid work. :rolleyes:

When most people tell these stories, they fail to consider the different reasons why the problems might only show up eg in an arena carrying a rider, as oppose to lose in the field. We used to have a driving pony that would limp like hell on very sharp left hand turns on firm ground and on roads with a very steep camber if you didn't go right down the middle - if you avoided these two things you could probably have driven him for twenty years and never knew he had a problem. That didn't mean he was putting on the lameness on the particular days we chose a route with a tight left or a steep camber road.

There are millions more likely reasons which might explain these "faking" horses problems, but people don't really want to face up to the reality and the expense of looking for them, its easier to kick on and give everybody some BS explanation.
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Im positive a horse could be taught to limp or cough on command, yes. You would need to either wait for it to happen naturally and pair it with the cue, or induce the response to happen, like have a nail ready to stick in the foot or dust to blow up their nose, which is a tad ethically unsound, but it could be done ;-)

Spontaneous learning doesnt need 100s of repetitions for the horse to try it again. A horse putting on a limp wouldnt normally need to do it for long before they were accidentally rewarded by the rider halting or jumping off.

I think in most instances the horse first pairs limping with work stopping when they are limping for a genuine reason, is of a disposition which finds work ceasing to be a rewarding thing for whatever reason, and tries to make it happen again in the future.

At the end of the day I completely agree that lameness should be taken seriously and investigated, not presumed to be faked. However, faking because the horse finds some benefit to it which isnt pain related IS something which can be explained rationally by learning theory, even if you dont believe any of the accounts told on here.
 
paulmac said:
We had an arab gelding who seemed to be in pain when the girth was being tightened. Whenever he was out in the field he was fine and when in the stable happy as anything. Vet was called examined him and could find nothing wrong, this went on for several weeks and after 3 visits, x-rays etc another vet looked at him and suggested he was at it. His solution to check things was to give a high dose of painkillers to see how he reacted then.

Vet gave painkillers and assured us that the brat could not feel any pain at all yet when we tried to saddle up he reacted as if in agony. Vet said that due to level of painkillers he could not feel a thing. Told us to wait a few days for drugs to wear off then take him out and work him really hard for a 2 or 3 days and be very strict whenever he started to play up. We did this and although he was a brat for a day or two he suddenly gave up and went back to being his old self.

Vet said he came across a couple of cases like this every year usually ponies.
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I don't think that sounds like a faking symptom! Could be the girth pinched, itched, was too far forward so the pony knew when he would be asked to walk it would hurt. Could also be a back problem, bad saddle fit, a sore spot somewhere. I'd have had all those things checked. Could be rider related, being done up too quickly etc, so many things here that the pony could be trying to tell you.

I don't believe horses have the ability to fake illnesses or symptoms. We may interpret their behaviour in that way because we are looking at them through human eyes and applying human emotions to them, because we are human. They aren't!
 
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