Horses grow the feet they need - discuss

serenityjane said:
What Rockley are doing is different in that they are rehabilitating hooves (mainly with navicular problems) that have been subjected to years of poor farriery/ infrequent shoeing intervals. The horses are usually mature and are slowly rehabilitated and brought back into work- they probably do 'grow the foot they need' and it seems to work, although I would like to see details on how that recovery lasts over time and once the horses are returned do they still do the things they used to?

, and working a footsore horse is cruel and counterproductive in my opinion,
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I agree that working a footsore horse is cruel but not all of them are. Of my 5 horses 2 work barefoot and are ridden daily, we don't have an arena or anything so it is going out only and that includes roads and stony tracks. One is booted on all 4 feet for all rides. That is because he is PPID and that was undiagnosed for a long time. He could probably go unbooted behind. Of the 2 pasture pets both are obviously unshod and sound. One would probably struggle but the other one, a failed arab, would go over anything and more and then some if he got the chance. So not all barefoot horses are failures as riding horses.

ycbm, can you supply the data requested in the first para. I think it would be very interesting to see exactly how many of the horses remained successful back under normal living conditions and for how long. If they failed it would be interesting to note why.

dianchi, I live in an area surrounded by moorland hill ponies. A large number have reasonable or good feet. Some do however go wrong. That is often very wrong and I have seen curly toes over the years. Once they get like that they cannot self trim their way out of trouble.
 
I think every horse has the potential to go barefoot.

But it is another question entirely as to whether barefoot is *appropriate* for that horse.
 
paddy555 said:
ycbm, can you supply the data requested in the first para. I think it would be very interesting to see exactly how many of the horses remained successful back under normal conditions and for how long. If they failed it would be interesting to note why.
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Sorry, no I can't, I don't have that information, but there are quite a few owners on this forum.

My first 'write-off' rehab, a day away from being put down, has now been sound for five years and is going strong. Another I sold, which was given a poor prognosis of return to work by Leahurst was sound within eight weeks at Rockley and has been sound for the four years since.

And Rockley has a reunion camp every year which issues pictures of long term sound horses making full use of all the venue's facilities.

People occasionally post threads on here asking about rehab failures, but hardly get any answers. I would love to know more about those, we could learn so much from the failures. I've known one myself, where the horse had a bone spur on the navicular and went lame again every time it came back into serious work. Many barefoot (not rehab) failures that I know of seem to be related to metabolic issues, which can make it difficult, or downright impossible.


What Rockley do is not mystical or magical, they simply provide an environment which is ideal to kick start the rehab process. It isn't difficult for most people to carry on when the horse goes home, because by then it's pretty much a normal barefoot horse, requiring a high fibre, low sugar diet, consistent work, and conservative trimming if it isn't self trimming.
 
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serenityjane said:
OP I am in full agreement with your post and think that barefoot works for most horses if just turned out on variable terrain, ridden is an entirely different thing and whilst many shout about their rockcrunching performance horses, it is often revealed that when they do any real work, then boots must be used, or they are only 'performing' in an arena/on certain surfaces/ for a quiet hack on pasture.
What Rockley are doing is different in that they are rehabilitating hooves (mainly with navicular problems) that have been subjected to years of poor farriery/ infrequent shoeing intervals. The horses are usually mature and are slowly rehabilitated and brought back into work- they probably do 'grow the foot they need' and it seems to work, although I would like to see details on how that recovery lasts over time and once the horses are returned do they still do the things they used to?
I am a 'recovering' barefooter- I can see the point, think the diet is excellent and use the principles on all my horses, but also see it's limitations and of the six horses we currently have- the two working horses are shod, one is remedially shod in front, one broodmare is barefoot as are the two foals.
My riding horse was barefoot when I bought her at 4yo, I backed her and then discovered like you OP that her hoof wear was uneven due to her gait (she also dished very slightly), she also wore her 'rockcrunching' feet excessively as we only have road hacking available- she was never footsore, or 'trimmed' but I decided to shoe because the wear definately did effect her upper body movement- she has been 18 months in shoes, doesn't dish at all now, moves beautifully through all her body, and I can ride her whenever and wherever I want.
Because I have tried to keep working barefoot horses for several years, I have seen many of the pitfalls, and have taken all the advantages on board for my working shod horses- I am very foot aware, only have the best farrier I can and keep shoeing intervals where they should be.
A horse can only be truly fit for work and in fact grow the feet it needs if it works, and working a footsore horse is cruel and counterproductive in my opinion,
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I agree that shoes can be more appropriate for hoof management for some horse owner combination but I don't think it's fair saying that people who claim to have rock crunchers actually use boots for 'real' work! I use to event (currently lack time/budget) pre-novice and hunt happily full days over nasty ground and a lot of the hacking is road work which imo is what you need to achieve tidy self trimming, I personally wouldn't dare hunt in boots. I've always started with a started with a sound horse and haven't had issues with foot soreness that tweaking my management hasn't sorted.

It sounds like for you you've found the best way to manage your horse which is great but barefoot horse who really perform do exist and normally because they're worked hard not despite it.

For Rockley Rehabs long term Criso's link show's that 80%+ have stayed sound and in full work since they've started which is better results for Navicular syndrome than anywhere else has achieved.

There's also a lovely blog by a Rockley rehab owner and his adventures in eventing http://buddysbarefootadventure.blogspot.co.uk/ Not a hoofboot in site (lots of matchy bandages though.)
 
serenityjane said:
ridden is an entirely different thing and whilst many shout about their rockcrunching performance horses, it is often revealed that when they do any real work, then boots must be used, or they are only 'performing' in an arena/on certain surfaces/ for a quiet hack on pasture.
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Like this? My week day hacking

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ycbm said:
S

People occasionally post threads on here asking about rehab failures, but hardly get any answers. I would love to know more about those, we could learn so much from the failures. I've known one myself, where the horse had a bone spur on the navicular and went lame again every time it came back into serious work. Many barefoot (not rehab) failures that I know of seem to be related to metabolic issues, which can make it difficult, or downright impossible.


What Rockley do is not mystical or magical, they simply provide an environment which is ideal to kick start the rehab process. It isn't difficult for most people to carry on when the horse goes home, because by then it's pretty much a normal barefoot horse, requiring a high fibre, low sugar diet, consistent work, and conservative trimming if it isn't self trimming.
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A fair proportion of the ones that are not in work or were pts were horses with multiple issues so front feet get sorted only for something else equally devastating to pop up. Sometimes there are issues that you may keep going with individually but when they all combine it's too much. I saw a detailed breakdown of the stats I linked to but don't have it to refer back to.

I would also add going on discussions on the private Rockley forum, most struggle to some degree with trying to provide the right environment especially as a high proportion of us are trying to negotiate our way through livery yards and their many 'quirks'. There are many that don't have metabolic issues in the sense of something a vet can test for but are very sensitive little souls that need a perfect environment to function at their best.
 
criso said:
A fair proportion of the ones that are not in work or were pts were horses with multiple issues so front feet get sorted only for something else equally devastating to pop up. Sometimes there are issues that you may keep going with individually but when they all combine it's too much. I saw a detailed breakdown of the stats I linked to but don't have it to refer back to.

I would also add going on discussions on the private Rockley forum, most struggle to some degree with trying to provide the right environment especially as a high proportion of us are trying to negotiate our way through livery yards and their many 'quirks'. There are many that don't have metabolic issues in the sense of something a vet can test for but are very sensitive little souls that need a perfect environment to function at their best.
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I bless my lucky stars that I have full control over my horses' environment, feed and work. And that I have no serious metabolic issues to deal with ( Though I currently appear to have TWO out of two with EPSM !!) . It can be horribly difficult for people in ordinary livery yards :(
 
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dianchi said:
yet all those wild ponies seem to cope?!
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As per my earlier post, actually the don't all. There is a managed herd in the central North Island in of New Zealand, that are known for chronic hoof issues, due to the ground they are living on. I have been told that 83% of the mustered horses (they are mustered every two years) have sub clinical laminitis, and certainly a lot of the ones that are homed have issues.

If you want to see more about them look up "Keeping Up With The Kaimanawas" on FB.

In total contrast a friend has just been in the USA and sent back some photos of Keiger Mustangs and they had feet to die for, but were living in perfect conditions.
 
All barefoot horses can grow the foot they need IF they are kept as a mob, kept in ideal, dry conditions with access to water that allows them to paddle their tootsies, fed the ideal diet, and are only expected to live in that environment (i.e. not be ridden!).
I have what comes pretty close to that ideal environment for my 5 horses and I have 2 paddock puffs who are "self trimming" in that I do not need to trim their feet in order for them to be perfectly sound IN THE PADDOCK. But the feet are ugly, with chips, and wouldn't stand up to ridden work without chipping significantly more and the horse running the risk of becoming sore as a result.
I have 2 ridden horses in work that, left to their own devices, would not need trimming in order to be happy in the paddock. They need trimming to be worked and stay sound. We have to bear in mind that RIDING is in itself an unnatural demand on a horse, and therefore we should not be surprised if nature needs a little help to allow our horses to be ridden! I assumes the horses at Rockley are not ridden while they are there? Someone correct me if I am wrong.
As for asymmetry - I am ALL in favour of early trimming to correct limb asymmetry. However, once the horse has finished growing and has asymmetric limbs, the hoof will grow, given the chance, to accommodate it. Someone mentioned the position of the frog being crucial and they were very right - the centre of the hoof (and therefore the frog) need to be under the weight bearing line of the limb). If a limb is very wonky, that can end up being in a very odd position! Trimming to make a symmetrical foot instead of following the guidance of where the frog needs to be can cause all sorts of problems.
Oh and I take exception to this:
"ridden is an entirely different thing and whilst many shout about their rockcrunching performance horses, it is often revealed that when they do any real work, then boots must be used, or they are only 'performing' in an arena/on certain surfaces/ for a quiet hack on pasture".
Come and meet my ridden horses who clock up 25-30 miles a week on rocks and gravel in training, all TOTALLY barefoot.
 
OwnedbyJoe said:
I assumes the horses at Rockley are not ridden while they are there? Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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The horses at Rockley are in work. Their own horses hunt regularly. The rehabs are brought into work as soon as they get there starting with being led from another horse and progressing to ridden.

I have to say my experience of needing trimming is directly opposite to yours.

Mine needed more trimming once retired. In full work he self trimmed. If his feet were starting to get long a couple of good hacks sorted them. The bits he chipped were excess wall he didn't need and continued work tidied the edges. I found rough bridlepaths worked better than roads. I found this out by accident as the farrier I was using when he first came back from Rockley wouldn't come out for just a trim. When I called in a panic about chips, he said not to worry and he'd be fine and carry on riding. By the time the farrier was on the yard shoeing several weeks later, the feet looked great and didn't need doing.

The only times he was footsore involved a rasp or knife and an overenthusiastic farrier. Now retired although he does go out for little walks in hand, he needs trimming. The growth has slowed down now he's not in work but not so much I can ignore him completely.

I had another ex Rockley one on loan briefly. Before he came to me he had been lamed by trimming as he needed an asymmetric hoof to compensate for something higher up. The crucial thing was watching him move and the way he landed evenly with these feet. He came to me with 3 bad vertical cracks. Two of the cracks grew out with no intervention. One crack need a tiny bit of bevelling on the edges of the crack just so it didn't catch.

My new one does need some trimming as for various reasons I can't give him enough work at the moment, he's only doing about 8- 10 miles weekly of roadwork/rough bridleways. He doesn't chip off - would be better if he did - he gets excess wall which then means he is not loading properly.
 
OwnedbyJoe said:
All barefoot horses can grow the foot they need IF they are kept as a mob, kept in ideal, dry conditions with access to water that allows them to paddle their tootsies, .
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The paddling is interesting, many of our horses enjoy getting their feet/legs thoroughly immersed in the boggy section of our field. Whether this is for access to the tasty grass there, or whether they need it for their feet I don't know, but our old boy who was retired and shoeless used to spend a lot of time in there in the summer, it probably helped keep his feet nice and cool :)

And my horse won't be in work at Rockley, at least at the start I don't think as the vet has prescribed 6 months complete rest, although I'm hoping if sound by the time he goes to Rockley, then some work can start with him. I worry a bit about maintaining him on his return, but what I need is a good trimmer, some outside the box thinking about my turnout (as I have access to different surfaces, but would need to re-fence etc) and get riding him, if indeed he can be returned to any work - although I'm not holding my breath!
 
This horse stands on road planings at all times unless being exercised, which is on tarmac and stone tracks. Last trimmed just under a year ago when I had her shoes taken off. She does 70-100km per week. She is worked every single day due to a muscle disorder which means she must be exercised.

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She is very sound on all surfaces. When she came home in Feb, her feet couldn't grow fast enough for the road planings surface, however now they do.

My other horse is on grass 24/7 and doesn't have as big a work load although is on the same tracks for about half the time the pictured foot is, as she is still transitioning and fittening up, and her feet are also self trimming.
 
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I think road planings are my solution at least some of the time (during the diet months!!) are I have a track of them, although I need to improve the fencing.
 
stencilface said:
I think road planings are my solution at least some of the time (during the diet months!!) are I have a track of them, although I need to improve the fencing.
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I don't think she is sensitive to grass foot wise, but for her PSSM it's best to avoid it. Then there's the EGS I have on the place...!

Will definitely make things easier for yours I'm sure.
 
FfionWinnie said:
This horse stands on road planings at all times unless being exercised, which is on tarmac and stone tracks. Last trimmed just under a year ago when I had her shoes taken off. She does 70-100km per week. She is worked every single day due to a muscle disorder which means she must be exercised.

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She is very sound on all surfaces. When she came home in Feb, her feet couldn't grow fast enough for the road planings surface, however now they do.

My other horse is on grass 24/7 and doesn't have as big a work load although is on the same tracks for about half the time the pictured foot is, as she is still transitioning and fittening up, and her feet are also self trimming.
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Nice foot. Good frog, correct proportions of frog to toe, good concavity and a slight assymetry. Nice to see you have left the walls as they are - nicely worn and rolling her own toe

Good job FW :)
 
Just to back Criso up, I've also seen the breakdown of what's happened to each and every Rockley horse including some not included in Project Dexter as they didn't fit the entry criteria. Although the success rates are unprecedented there are horses who have ongoing issues. Many of the horses do not just have "navicular" often once the front feet are fixed the subtler back and hock issues come to light, many of these do improve over time but seem to take longer then the feet.
Some owners struggle with sore feet, often in horses that were fine at Rockley, I think we all know that this is due to less then ideal environments and when we win the lottery we will all build our own mini-Rockley. Of course horses are horses and having been to Rockley does not prevent them colicing, impaling themselves on objects or just getting old!

At Rockley the horses are worked or not depending on their progress, some are hunting fit after 12 weeks rehab some are still struggling to walk up the road, the key thing is that there is measurable progress, if there isn't Nic sends them home (I believe this has only happened once or twice and has been due to an unrelated condition)

Self trimming is the ideal but again depends on the horse and environment. Interestingly the two I used to have to touch up have much nicer feet after 3 weeks on their new track.

For the record mine hack, hunt and compete BE/BD. I do not own boots. My Rockley rehab is not 100% rock crunching but if she can't manage a surface or distance it is because I have not conditioned her to it properly, if her feet aren't fit enough for the distance the rest of her certainly wont be, I view it as a useful safety net to stop me working her more then her fitness allows which hopefully should prevent other injuries as she gets older. I have yet to find a situation my non-rehabs hooves can't handle.
 
Another backup post (because I apparently can't sleep... useful when I have to be up at 6am for work tomorrow, no?). I've also seen some of the Project Dexter breakdown data. Can't remember the specifics and apparently my level of still awakeness doesn't stretch to looking thru my entire download history but can confirm accurateness of success rates and of the majority of horses reaching or exceeding pre-lameness levels of work.

My own rehab horse is a pain in the arse to put it mildly. He has never at any point been rockcrunching even when he was at Rockley and still wasn't really up to much ridden work on the road when he first came home. This is testament to how compromised his feet were at the start (He was lame in hoofboots on grass the only other time he hadn't had shoes on pre-Rockley, immediately post MRI). I also managed to temporarily ****** things up by perhaps not being as careful as I should have been initially but that's another story. He probably needs more grass restriction and access to a better range of surfaces in his turnout area than I'm able to provide but most of the time he manages on most surfaces without boots if I dismount to lead over really horrible ones and stick to walk on ones he doesn't like. He was recently discovered to have Cushings when investigating something totally unrelated to his feet (weight / muscle loss) which, if it's something he's been on the edge of for a little while, may explain why he struggles more than most. Keeping fingers crossed that getting that under better control may help yield better feet. Interestingly despite all this he does mostly self trim and maybe gets a tidy up 3 or 4 times a year. We tend to do worse in Winter as I just can't get the miles in this time of year with working full time and lack of light.
 
stencilface said:
The paddling is interesting, many of our horses enjoy getting their feet/legs thoroughly immersed in the boggy section of our field. Whether this is for access to the tasty grass there, or whether they need it for their feet I don't know, but our old boy who was retired and shoeless used to spend a lot of time in there in the summer, it probably helped keep his feet nice and cool :)

And my horse won't be in work at Rockley, at least at the start I don't think as the vet has prescribed 6 months complete rest, although I'm hoping if sound by the time he goes to Rockley, then some work can start with him. I worry a bit about maintaining him on his return, but what I need is a good trimmer, some outside the box thinking about my turnout (as I have access to different surfaces, but would need to re-fence etc) and get riding him, if indeed he can be returned to any work - although I'm not holding my breath!
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Not being ridden at Rockley is probably as much if not more movement than many if not most horses have when 'in work' they are moving all day round a huge purpose built track to get to hay water etc etc .
That's why the horses do so well I have never been to Rockley but my trimmer has been several times and hunted one of Nics horses on Exmoor.
 
My Tb mostly self trims and is sound. He had problems before i removed his shoes 3 years ago. Rockley and the wealth of information from there has been a God send to me and my boy. Each horse is different, I know with mine that the less his feet are interfered with, the better.
 
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