Horses that refuse..

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Supanova

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If a horse learns that refusing at a fence is an option, is it possible to train them out of it?

There is a very long story with my mare, but in summary she has now learnt how to stop. For example, i jumped the Newcomers at Aintree last Sunday and she jumped absolutely super round a big track but had one stop at the water tray and then jumped it the second time. Yesterday, she jumped a 1m amateur class - jumped super all the way round but had one stop at the planks she didn't like the look of, jumped it the second time. Sometimes its not even a spooky fence, but perhaps she is half a stride to far off or something (she is very careful).

She gets a smack (only when i'm sure its her and not me) when she stops but doesn't seem to make much difference.

Please note, physically she is fine - has been checked a million times by the vets, physios etc. I am confident as I can be, without her being able to talk, that this isn't the problem and it is a mental issue.

I also have lessons where they can't understand why we're not doing better than we are. Although typically my trainer never sees the naughty stops in competitions at water trays etc.

My mare does lack a bit of confidence as she tends to go more backward in the ring than in the warm up. She is a typical backward, lazy spooky WB but this stopping thing seems more of a - "oh i don't fancy this fence, so i'll just stop for a look, ok now i'll go". I do think she enjoys jumping though as in the collecting ring and at home, she gets quite excited when jumping.

My question is - how do i train her out of this? Is it even possible? My mum was saying last night that horses have to want to try for you and I think this is true. This mare just seems to take the easy route out....

Any thoughts gratefully received.
 
Difficult to say without seeing it, whether she's being careful, lazy, cowardly, micky-taking, or whatever, but theoretically speaking i think it's possible to train them out of it, yes. Also, although this is not a fashionable thing to say, i'd rather be sitting on something smart and independent-thinking enough to do a 'safety stop' in absolute extremis (if, say, it slips and we are in a totally impossible position to jump a fence from) than one that thinks it MUST go no matter what, and possibly has a rotational when trying to go from an impossible spot. Of course they must go from slightly off or deep spots, maybe she's not strong or confident enough to think she can do that yet? I'd do lots of grids, varying distances once she's happy with the perfect distance, I think.
 
Thanks Kerrilli - I will try to get some videos of her and post. It is also good to hear that it is a positive in some ways!

She is clever and very capable so I don't feel like its because she thinks she can't do it. She has done it in the past, but she started stopping one day (which may well have been because of physical things which have now been fixed) and now i think its something she has learnt is acceptable. She will do it at a really small, easy fence if she feels like it and then go and jump a 1.30m fence like its nothing. I think its probably a combination of laziness and mickey taking, although as ever its hard to be 100% sure.

She jumped so well round the Newcomers the other day and then just stopped without warning at the water tray - she was on a decent stride and she has jumped water trays perfectly happily in the past. She then popped it like she didn't know what all the fuss was about!

I probably don't do enough grid work with her, but i will try to do this more regularly.

What do you think about tapping horses on the neck with the whip before a fence? I am in two minds about it! I did it at one bogey fence yesterday and she jumped that first time but sometimes i feel its distracting for them.
 
Not keen on the slap down the shoulder, can cause them to dink to the side. Have you thought about spurs? Sounds to me that she just looses a wee bit of confidence when she enters the ring. Good strong positive riding and dont be afraid to use the stick to back your legs up.:)
 
kirstykate said:
Not keen on the slap down the shoulder, can cause them to dink to the side. Have you thought about spurs? Sounds to me that she just looses a wee bit of confidence when she enters the ring. Good strong positive riding and dont be afraid to use the stick to back your legs up.:)
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Hi Kirstykate - i wear spurs which help a bit. Would you use the stick behind the leg on the approach to a fence? Sometimes she doesn't give much signal that she's going to stop!
 
Yep behind the leg and hard, and two up hard if she does stop, sometime you have to ride the confidence into them in the ring.:) Stage fright!!!
 
In my show jumping days (very long ago) you quite often saw horses that put in the odd stop for no obvious reason at all and were got out of the habit - admittedly in the examples I am thinking of by someone stronger and perhaps more aggressive riding them a couple of times. No suggesting that as an answer straight off but may be something to consider if needs to.

Don't despair!
 
I might get shot down for saying this put I think you should smack her even if you think it is your fault she has stopped. She needs to learn the stopping is not an option at 1m/1m10 she should be able to go off any stride even if she does knock it down it is better than her stopping. I do not advocate over use of the whip by any means I just think a sharp smack so she knows you mean business might help. I do sometimes smack on the shoulder if you feel the horse backing off and they are too wobbly to take hand of the rein and I think this does work. In training I would jump with a schooling whip then you can tap her up behind the saddle if you feel her backing off.

As for your original question I think you can train them out of it but you have to be super positive 100% of the time and don't give her an inch. It might take a few messy rounds where you have to override but it will be worth it in the end.
 
What sort of bit are you using? When I had trouble years ago with a pony who got stopping into her head I swapped her pelham for a happy mouth mullen snaffle, and did some small classes just to give her her head and her confidence back. I think the fact she knew i didnt have absolute full control was what she needed to start thinking forward again.
 
Humblepie - i have been wondering for a long time about getting someone to ride her. I talked to my trainer about it and she told me off and said I was more than capable of riding this horse, so that put me off! However, perhaps i need to rethink. I just hate admitting defeat!

Lou-lou - Thanks for your reply. I am pleased to hear that you think i should get tough. I always like to give a horse the benefit of the doubt and i am probably too soft! I ride with a schooling whip in training but its like she knows as soon as i don't have it! I will try tapping her down the shoulder the next time.

weebarney - interestingly i have just tried her in a stronger bit - a myler ported bit which she actually seems to go better in (she has a large tongue). I have always ridden her in a snaffle until the last two times i have been out, but i went on a clinic with an eventer who suggested i try her in something stronger because she wasn't listening to me. I actually think the last two rounds she has jumped have been better but it has not stopped her stopping! In the warm up on Sunday she was positively pulling me into a fence - she just backs off in the ring. As kirstykate says its like stage fright!
 
lou_lou said:
I might get shot down for saying this put I think you should smack her even if you think it is your fault she has stopped. She needs to learn the stopping is not an option at 1m/1m10 she should be able to go off any stride even if she does knock it down it is better than her stopping. I do not advocate over use of the whip by any means I just think a sharp smack so she knows you mean business might help. I do sometimes smack on the shoulder if you feel the horse backing off and they are too wobbly to take hand of the rein and I think this does work. In training I would jump with a schooling whip then you can tap her up behind the saddle if you feel her backing off.

As for your original question I think you can train them out of it but you have to be super positive 100% of the time and don't give her an inch. It might take a few messy rounds where you have to override but it will be worth it in the end.
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Totally disagree with this. You don't know why she's stopping so smack her :confused::confused:
 
Countrychic said:
Totally disagree with this. You don't know why she's stopping so smack her :confused::confused:
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I think lou_lou is assuming that there are no ridden or physical problems which is what i have put in my post. If a horse jumps happily round a Newcomers apart from a water tray (which she's jumped before) do you not agree that it is a sign of it being cheeky?

I will try to put videos up after next weekend so people are able to give more opinions. To be honest i really want it to be my fault because then i can fix it!
 
i'm not a fan of smacking down the shoulder for anything other than as a reminder to stay straight at a corner, say (and then a tap/wave of stick, not a hard smack), i think it takes the horse's mind off the fence and can make them think backwards or even sideways away from the fence if you're not careful. ANY 'go forward' aid needs to be behind the leg imho.
it might be a sign of being cheeky, or of being very careful, or of 'i will NOT go from that spot' (but happy to go from many others) if that makes sense? Some horses reject one particular spot consistently (often a long one, always chipping in, sometimes stopping if asked to stand off), or otherwise a very deep one. My good grey, who would cheerfully have jumped off a cliff for me, she was so mega-brave, would NOT go on a deep one to a sj. She'd jump anything from the sort of spot she liked, though...!
So, I'd think back... the fences she's stopped at, was there a common element? If not, I'd be more likely to ascribe it to cheekiness.
As above, you may have to have a 'you WILL go forward' round or two, where you don't care if she has a couple, you hunt round a bit but you do NOT let her stop. Maybe a smaller course but deliberately spooky (drape coats, rugs etc over jumps) and ride every fence as if she's stopped at it twice in front of royalty! ;) ;) ;)
I'm no fan of jumping with schooling whips either... they are for tickling the horse, not hitting it. Also, I have seen someone get bucked off very nastily after inadvertently hitting horse with schooling whip in midair... !
A short whip applied hard once or twice if she feels less than 2/3 in front of you can work wonders.
 
She said if it's your fault smack her anyway. Everyones different, I'm not having a go and maybe I'm soft but my weekend away was spoiled last weekend by having to watch so many horses being smacked. I'm not a fluffy bunny hugger. I do carry whips and on occasion I do use them but I just hate the new trend of beating seven bells out of horses because they've stopped.
I got eliminated at the weekend in a newcomers at fence 11 out of 12. We were clear up to then and she wouldn't go near fence 11. It was a straightforward filler but for some reason horses didn't seem to like it. Countless people laid in to their horses and came out of the ring on scared horses. I just took it as unfortunate. I doubt she'll do it again, if she does I'll drop her back down a class and build her confidence. I don't know if she was being cheeky but I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I've got another over careful one that has been dropped right down and is out every week jumping small spooky courses to build her confidence. Someone else probably could get her round with a whip or spurs but I'll do it my way.
I appreciate you aren't talking about beating your horse, and a smack if you and a good trainer establish it's being cheeky isn't going to harm the horse. I just was sad this weekend at so many horses that were being missed, over faced, under prepared then smacked so when it was suggested to smack her even if it was your fault I didn't agree. If you smack her for doing the sensible thing at 1m what's she supposed to do at 1.30?
 
Are you possibly dropping the contact last couple of strides especially if it's a jump you're not happy about? So riding nice and forward holding her hand then last minute you let go of her hand and she needs to confidence from you?

Also what is the quality of your canter like? If it hasn't got enough power and bounce she might not be able to have the power over the fence.

How about lots of gridwork so she can think for herself and doesn't rely on rider so much so if she gets a jumpable but dodgy stride she has the confidence to go over.
 
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I agree with Countrychic, I'm not a fan of smacking horses, especially when it's the riders fault! All my horses came to me with jumping issues, I reschooled all of them to jump by taking them back to basics and getting them to enjoy it again. IMO lots of reward is what's needed when training a horse to jump, start with small easy things, gradually increase the difficult and give the horse loads of praise when they do it correctly. How much competing has your mare done? If it's still new to her maybe just accept this, do easier classes for a bit, take the pressure off her (and you!) Alternatively maybe she feels overfaced? I know you say she jumps things fine at home but everything's different at competitions, even the rider feels different even if they don't mean to! Maybe just take her out more?

Personally if a horse refuses I generally give them the benefit of the doubt, accept it was probably my fault for either a poor approach or lack of preperation, represent better and if it still goes wrong re-look at that aspect of my training. Eg, maybe she's not as confident about water trays as you think? Maybe you need to do more work on them. IMO you can make a horse not stop in the short term by riding it strongly into every fence, but this is hard work and may ulitmately make the horse even harder to ride long term as it tries out more evasions! Or you can train it to want to jump, which takes longer but is ultimately a lot more rewarding and a horse like this will help you out of trouble rather than constantly trying to put you in it!
 
how old is your mare as well? My horse will do this but as he is only 5 and learning he is very much given the benefit of doubt. In our case, he is jumping something every week now, nothing massive but increasing difficulty and this seems to be working.
 
Thanks for all your replies! To give a bit more background - she is 10. I've had her since a 5yr old and took her up to newcomers in about 2 years. She was jumping well when she first started stopping (this is about 2yrs ago) which is why I had 18 months of physical investigations. Since then I've had lots of lessons and we've had Ups and downs - one day double clear the next eliminated. She has done plenty of jumping and seen lots of things.

Her canter is good although she can become backward in the ring. Please believe me when I say I always look to myself first and try to find what I could have done differently. I am by no means perfect but I really feel that this has become a habit for her whether through naughtiness or lack of confidence i don't know.

I think she is worse if she is half a stride to far off rather than too deep.

Reward is interesting. I don't think i am good enough at rewarding good behaviour so i will try to improve this.
 
My horse also started stopping as a 5yr old at newcomers heights. I am sure it was a combination of a loss of confidence (also extremely careful) and trying it on. I took him right back down to little stuff again (80-90cm) so that he had no excuse at all for stopping (and did get a couple of hard smacks if he did) and could regain confidence. I then slowly built back up again. He would always rather stop than go through a fence, but as Kerilli says, Much better than a nasty accident. I think they often do go through a "what happens if I say no" stage at 5yrs so don't panic, I am sure you will get through it!
 
Mavis thanks - unfortunately my mare is now 10 though! I have also taken her right back down to 90cm. Its only recently that I've tried newcomers again because she's won too much money for disco. We qualified for the 90cm second rounds this year - she jumped a good clear and was flying in the jump off. I tried to jump an easy fence on a slight angle. I turned to it saw a good line and stride and she stopped at last minute and nearly had me off!

Perhaps what has happened is that she had her 5yr old moment 2 years ago and because I gave her the benefit of the doubt for a long time she now thinks its acceptable? I wish i could get in her head!
 
I think I'd try your trainer riding her or drop her down to smaller classes with lots of praise for good behaviour. Grids at home and lots of small spooky fences
 
My trainer said to make it very black and white. Lots of small training courses including hired courses. Then ride very normally so you are giving every chance to jump well but also NOT over riding to prevent stops. Over tiny jumps they should go no matter what the stride. So every time they jump lots of praise ESPECIALLY If not the best stride, but if they stop make it very clear with a couple of hard smacks that it is not acceptable and immediately represent to the fence with tonnes of praise if they jump. And never punish a fence down. Then make the fences more spooky with coats, rugs etc but they must be small enough to go off ANY stride. Then as you feel confident gradually increase the fences (over several outings). Also avoid competing during this process as it is really not helpful if they learn that stopping twice means game over... Worked for mine anyway!
 
My 6yo can put in the odd stop. He's jumping about 1m. With him its very much a confidence issue. For example tonight I was doing grids and had an 90cm oxer at the end. The striding wasn't wide enough so he got too close and didn't shorten so scrabbled over it. Next go (I lengthened the grid) he stopped as if he was saying 'I'm confused and don't have the confience to do this' took out the jump before and he flew then put the jump in again and he flew down the grid no issues!
I have loads of lessons on him, so continue that and maybe get your trainer to watch you warm up and compete? I have a stronger professional rider ride when I feel that he needs a push. Also I use my voice grrrr's and good boys work just as well as a whip. Becareful not to over whip/leg because you will be sending the wrong message as horse will be wondering what's wrong with the fence for you to be riding differently. I found simple things like sitting on my bum quietly driving with my leg (aided by spurs) and a grr or smack if needed. Once over lots of good boys a pats.
Hope that helps, your horse is a lot more experienced than my green 6yo but it seems to be a confidence issue. also as I said before a different rider might just help a bit x
 
Thanks Mavis and dukey. Some really good advice here. I will try these things. I've got a group sj training clinic on Saturday so this will be a good place to try out some of these idea.
 
Supanova said:
Reward is interesting. I don't think i am good enough at rewarding good behaviour so i will try to improve this.
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I read a book once called reading the horses mind( or something like that) and it said best way to reward your horse is to get off its back, so ever since then as i finish the round horse gets a pat then as soon as im out the ring i loosen girth, dismount, give treat, make fuss. I want the horse to enjoy it as much as i do.
 
i had a mare that had a very dirty stop ,she would jump no problem over a big fence one day then stop at a very small jump the next minuet :(

the first time she did it with me she jumped half way round a xc course (schooling) jumping some big fences nicely with no problem ,then came to a tiny little plain fence and slammed the breaks on ,dropped shoulder and tried to whip out from under me but i stayed on and smacked her hard twice on the bum ,she did explode somewhat as she did not like being told of and no one had stayed on one of her stops before so she got quite a shock

she jumped like a stag for the next week or two then did it again , i reacted in the same way but she would still do it
so i'd take her into either the practice fence or a clear round if it was poss and just sit there and let her stop ,smacking her when she did and she always jumped great when in the arena

i also found with her that i had to keep her keen ,i couldn't jump her in a lesson on a sat then showjump on sunday as she'd stop
in the end i worked out how long between jumping was long enough to keep our eye in but to keep her keen as she always jumped best if she hadn't jumped for at least a week
if i was going somewhere special i wouldn't jump her for three weeks and she'd come out and jump her socks of for me
she never stopped for a year before i sold (with an instruction manual ;) )her just by not jumping her more than once a week so it might be worth trying some different routines with yours to see if it makes a difference :)
 
Just had a thought with your trainer or when your jumping at home do you have exercises that maybe encourage her to go on a long one? And to jump on an angle? I would speak to your trainer about jumping exercises that would make her think and maybe ensure she gets used to jumping on different strides?
I'll be doing this in my lesson at the weekend, as I want my boy to jump when he is not a 100% on the right stride and to have the confience to just go!
Also maybe she flew around the 90cm because its not so scary to jump that height on an odd stride but bigger she might not be so confident?
 
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