Horses that refuse..

I have a horse which is not forward to jump at all and you have to 'reassure' into every fence. I do sometimes jump with a long stick, as on the approach if I feel she's got a bit backward, I can just 'tap' her with it (not smack, not even a flick) without making a fuss of taking my hand off the reins and therefore the whole 'reassurance' is much more still with less movement etc. Does that make sense? Could that work?
 
I have had spooky WBs which have got backward-thinking in the ring. For me, the key is when you said she was really taking you to the warm-up fences, but not when you got into the ring.

I think you have to be able to get her in front of your leg in the ring, so you get the same feeling of her taking you to the fences - if she is the type I am imagining, she will be far less likely to stop then. A simple first way to try to do this is just to give her a bit of a "hoon" once you get in there, while you are waiting for the bell to ring, then obviously bring her back and balance her, but don't kill it and start your round a bit more gung ho and forward than you feel you want to ;) Any time you feel she is dropping behind you round a turn or something, send her strongly forward into the contact again.

If you find you can't do it this way (and I have had a very spooky one which it didn't work straightaway on), my next option would be to hire a venue the day after a competition (options in my area are Wales and West or Summerhouse) and treat it as a competition ie warm up and go straight in and ride the course, BUT carry two schooling whips, and any time you feel she is dropping you or backing off, give her a flick to send her forward again. She must learn to think forward in the ring - it sounds to me as though your problems start before you ever get to the fence in question.
 
Thank you - its great to have all these replies.

Weebarney - thank you. I will definitely try to make my rewards much clearer in the future. Its something i have been trying to do on the flat in the past week (something my dressage instructer told me) - she can be quite idle so every time she tries to go forward just a couple of strides i have been rewarding her. This seems to have made a really big difference so i must try harder to do this when jumping.

Freddiesgal - I really don't know! I don't think she is that scared. She is definitely a spooky mare, but she used to jump water trays absolutely no problem at all. I have just bought one so i am going to practice over it in the next few weeks and see how we get on at home. Also, the water tray maybe a bad example as there have been times when she has stopped at a simple upright of poles and jumped all the fillers!

Angelish - this is interesting and something i will try. I am in two minds. On one hand i feel she actually needs more ring experience (as she still seems green even though she's done loads and is 10!), but you are right on the other hand she needs to be kept fresh. I will play around with this and see how different things work.

Dukey - no i have never really tried any exercises to encourage her to go on a long one. Is there an exercise you can recommend? We have practiced jumping on angles in training though which she did fine. Its funny because in the last training sesssion when we did this i actually felt that i didn't ride her well into the fences on an angle - hooked too much and killed the canter a bit, but she jumped them! When we did it in the ring i felt that everything was really perfect and she nearly dropped me!

Rotters - thanks that does make sense and I will try it. I may do a clear round so i can use a schooling whip but in an competition type environment!
 
TableDancer said:
I have had spooky WBs which have got backward-thinking in the ring. For me, the key is when you said she was really taking you to the warm-up fences, but not when you got into the ring.

I think you have to be able to get her in front of your leg in the ring, so you get the same feeling of her taking you to the fences - if she is the type I am imagining, she will be far less likely to stop then. A simple first way to try to do this is just to give her a bit of a "hoon" once you get in there, while you are waiting for the bell to ring, then obviously bring her back and balance her, but don't kill it and start your round a bit more gung ho and forward than you feel you want to ;) Any time you feel she is dropping behind you round a turn or something, send her strongly forward into the contact again.

If you find you can't do it this way (and I have had a very spooky one which it didn't work straightaway on), my next option would be to hire a venue the day after a competition (options in my area are Wales and West or Summerhouse) and treat it as a competition ie warm up and go straight in and ride the course, BUT carry two schooling whips, and any time you feel she is dropping you or backing off, give her a flick to send her forward again. She must learn to think forward in the ring - it sounds to me as though your problems start before you ever get to the fence in question.
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You are 100% right Tabledancer. Her ability to drop behind my leg is the absolute problem. Trouble is I have done exactly what you have said in terms of riding her forward positively when i go in the ring and keeping on her case all the time - this is exactly what my SJ trainer tells me to do. Sorry i feel like i making loads of excuses on this post and saying "tried that, done that etc!" I don't want anyone to think i'm not taking their comments on board because i am -they have all been really useful! Its just that i have been battling with this problem for quite a long time. What you have recommended definitely helps, although i do think at one stage i was over egging it and throwing the "baby out with the bath water" so to speak, so the last two times i've been out i've calmed it down a bit and i think overall she jumped a little better. Just as an example, on Sunday in the 1m amateur there was an oxer, 3 strides to a spooky planks. She jumped the oxer well but then really sucked back at me because she was looking at the planks and i just couldn't get her forward enough in those 3 strides to make her jump it. However, at Aintree last week she was properly in front of the leg because this is a venue she knows well and i've had lots of lessons at, and she still stopped at the water tray. Although if i am really over critical, the take off point was probably 1 foot further away than the point she likes to jump off!

Its a really good idea about hiring a venue the day after a compeition though. This is now also on my list to try!
 
I do completely agree with TD's approach, as I am completely anti tapping them on the neck, and smacking them behind the leg on the way to a fence can quite often worry them anyway.

However, the other thing to try is not to hassle her on the way to a fence at all. Let her work it out herself, and don't panic too much if she adds extra strides in if she is working something out, as long as she goes. My coloured horse got worse the more you hassled him, and in retrospect I thik if I had done more and more work at home on canter poles etc, so his "default" was to be on the correct 12ft stride regardless, and I could leave him alone more, it would have improved his confidence majorly.

So, lots and lots of canter poles/grids at home, and insisting she stays infront of the leg with transitions etc, which will help you keep the canter motivated in the ring, so you can almost be too forward around a croner to a fence, and then sit quietly but ready to correct her on the way to a fence, so leaving her a lone unless she really drops back, and then giving her a sharp kick, as opposed to riding her forwards regardless... does that make sense?!
 
KatB - makes total sense thanks. I think i may have also hassled / helped (?!) my mare in the early years. She was always backwards and spooky (but didn't stop) so i used to carry her round and in hindsight i wonder if she every really learnt for herself and now she wonders where I am if i don't nag at her all the time.
 
Lots of good things to be tried on here. My old horse had a really dirty stop in him, and was also an expert at running out.

With him, I did actully find a slap down the shoulder could be of help when doing XC. I can remember one jump in particular, I could feel him "twitching" to the right hand side (the only side he could have run out), and he got a quick slap down the shoulder, and he went over the jump instead of round it. Had I have taken my hands off the rein to slap behind my leg, he would have run out.

Anyway, point is, that in some cases, shoulder can work, but it depends on the horse!
 
Shes so like my old boy, he will jump a brilliant round then stop for no apparent reason. When i had a horse listener to him, she said he liked to be ridden by susie (he described her to a tee!) as she made a decision, and didn't alter from it. He said i confused him, on the approach to a fence. She also told me he wanted to jumped in his hacking/schooling bit, me thinking i had no chance of being able to stop was doubtful! However, i took him out in it, and won the class, maybe a coincidence or maybe not!

But i have thought that maybe me and my boy don't suit each other, he doesn't like to try for me.. i often say 'he wouldn't pee on me if i was on fire!' But that's how i feel he is!
I have found that he behaves better for me, when he does more varied things, and not out BS every week!

I would try getting someone else to ride her, just see how she reacts?
 
Wench - thanks! I will give it a go as not sure i have much to lose by it!

Showjump - how interesting about the horse listener!! Who did you have?! Do you think Susie would ride her for me? She shouted at me last time I asked, but then i'm not really sure she's ever seen what my mare is like. I'm glad because you have seen her!
 
I used isobel hogton, from Scotland. She comes this way quite often tho. I'm not sure, maybe ask her again? Its so frustrating, tho as you cant get any consistency.. im still in the same boat with mine so maybe we should find a cure between us!!
 
showjump said:
I used isobel hogton, from Scotland. She comes this way quite often tho. I'm not sure, maybe ask her again? Its so frustrating, tho as you cant get any consistency.. im still in the same boat with mine so maybe we should find a cure between us!!
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Well it sounds like it might be worth asking her because she seemed to get some useful information your boy.......although part of me dreads what my mare will say!! "the reason i don't jump is because i have this useless thing riding me that can't seem to make up her mind what she wants!!"

Perhaps the answer is that we both become "owners" and get Susie to ride them whilst we concentrate on the young ones!
 
Just another thought, is it possible she objects to being told how to jump the course, not in the sense you're ordering her, but in a mareish 'ask don't tell' way? Very different because I was a teen & we were at a lower level, but mine used to be terrible for dirty stops. Again, without an obvious pattern. One day she'd go double clear 3', the next she'd refuse to walk a tiny x even if I got off & led her. It took me about a year to figure out, & another year to put right. Basically she won't tolerate any rider input she feels is trying to dictate how she jumps. At home, I made the mistake of dropping the fences too low & simple, which in turn meant she would try & race round. And if I half halted even, she would object to me trying to tell her how to jump. Ditto trying to suggest a stride. And it then became a vicious circle of her proving the point she would do things her way. However at comps, as she was young, & wary of coloured fillers, we only jumped way under ability, & I left her alone to have a look. And the fact she was still cautious of fillers etc meant she backed off herself, & had time to get the stride. My moment of realising was at a small unaffiliated show. She'd gone clear 2'9, then kept stopping at the plain practice fence in the warm up. A very good sj trainer, there with a client told me to jump bigger. I thought he was mad, but being 14 I didn't say so. He put up a 4' upright & told me to leave her to it. She balanced herself before it & went clear. Trainer told me she was just a mare who would only do things her way. The trick was not doing anymore than being a passenger for months & making sure anything I jumped was either big enough or tricky enough to get her to think. She still stopped on occasions, but most of what she stopped at was small stuff. And could be jumped from a stand still. With time, I got to be able to offer hints & help. But even now she downs tools if she thinks you are insisting. You're at a different level than I was, but it could be possible. Especially as at a comp I'm guessing you are more likely to be setting her up for a fence than when at home. And the more experienced she is, if she has that mareish 'don't tell me what to do' streak, the more likely she is to want to do it her way.
 
Just a suggestion, but is all the jumping you do schooling and competing? Might be an idea to go on a farm/fun ride with a friend and just jump for fun with all the pressure taken off and see how your horse responds to that.
 
Fimbacob said:
Just a suggestion, but is all the jumping you do schooling and competing? Might be an idea to go on a farm/fun ride with a friend and just jump for fun with all the pressure taken off and see how your horse responds to that.
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littlelegs - yes it could very well be that she doesn't like being told what to do as she is quite an opinionated mare, but on the otherhand if i sit and do nothing she will stop. If she's slightly wrong to a fence and i ask her to make a decision she will stop. I have to tell her where to take off from. It may be that i have taught her to be like that though and this was the initial mistake!

Fimbacob - i went on a farm ride with showjump a couple of weeks ago. I haven't done enough of this sort of stuff in the past. I was generally pleased with her as she has no experience of XC fences - most of the time she would stop first time and then jump which is a bit like what she does SJ! I thought this was good for the first time XC but i guess she needs to learn that she needs to go first time and to trust me that its ok!
 
If it is that, what worked for mine was very complex grids. Just high & wide enough to require some thought, but small enough that when she got it wrong it was inviting enough to still jump it from a bad stride. In one session over a grid you could see marked improvement as to her figuring out her own striding & take off. And in time she learnt how to make decisions about new fences first time round. It was hard though because she didn't have the ability to make all decisions, & yet wouldn't accept any help. It was just a case of building up her experience till she could. I also found jumping low fences at an angle got her thinking & improved her ability to make a good decision quickly. Nothing spectacular, just a 2'6 upright at x, I would then ride across the diagnonal & leave her to work it out.
 
Stopping is a tricky one. Physical issues are one thing - as is spookyness and inexperience.

Any horse can have the odd stop, but you have to start wondering why if this keeps happening. If you are at the level where the horse does not find the height easy, you need to be more accurate in finding the right take off spot - if you are less accurate and need the horse to help out you probably need to drop down to a level where there horse is confident and able to help. In general, horses don't stop when they are at a correct take off point very often unless they have learnt that they can. It is hard when they have learnt they can stop – getting an accurate rider to sweeten the horse up for a while by giving it some easy rounds to build confidence and keep it happy might help, but the sad truth is that often they never really get going properly in the long term once this has become a habit.

Amateurs (I'm certainly one!) are better off having horses that find the level we jump at really easy - a 1.40m horse is usually able to help out round a 1.10m-1.20m track - but if the horse is already jumping at the top of its ability (and this is different to being able to jump a couple of bigger fences at home) we do test the horses good nature and its physical ability by getting things wrong. Sadly these good horses cost a lot of money…

On the smacking note - generally speaking, I do believe a jumping horse HAS to know it is incorrect to stop - the reason can be analysed after, so a hard smack if it stops. Obviously you also have to go back and analyse why it stopped - it may very well be that it is your own fault - but the immediate effect has to be that it must not stop, harsh as this sounds.

Also important that the horse ALWAYS goes off the leg - if it can get away with ignoring you in training, there is no reason why it should chose to listen to you coming to a fence it might be backing off anyway.

These are all comments in general, not specific to your case as I don't know you or the horse. Good luck, I hope it gets resolved! :)
 
littlelegs - thank you. There seems to be an underlying theme on the thread that grid work will help so I am going to do some more of this. I do quite a lot of canter pole and caveletti work but probably not enough gird work with proper jumps.

little flea - Thanks for all your comments and advice. It is certainly difficult! Its probably worth adding that this horse has lots of ability. She was sold to me as a "1.40m horse" and i think she does have that sort of capability but whether she will ever be mentally a show jumper i don't know! I have got a new flatwork trainer recently and she is really helping me with getting her more in front of the leg so i am hoping thats going to pay dividends in the SJ arena too.
 
I was going to ask my instructor on Sunday for a couple of exercises. My boy doesn't like getting too close he prefers going on a long one. But I would suggest bounces a friend with a grade A often does short and long row of small x poles. Short being 3 of our paces apart and long being 4 1/2 to 5. My boy found the short harder as naturally he is longer. But I ride down sitting still leg on and letting him work it out. By small I mean no bigger than 80cm so if they do make a mistake it doesn't knock their confience.
 
Assuming vigorous (hunting style if necessary) riding does not work, I would be inclined to belt her once and then make her jump from a standstill if she stops - but make sure the fences are small enough to do that safely (have the fence lowered for you whilst you wait if necessary). Alternatively, rein back a few steps and then jump, without having turned her away from the fence. If she has done grid work, etc., she should be happy to jump reasonable size fences from a few strides of trot or canter. Do you use your voice? It can make such a difference.

I would also be doing lots of work at home with getting her genuinely off the aids and in front of the leg so that when she drops off your leg there is more discipline and responsiveness trained in to help you get the most out of her in the ring. With my spooky warmblood I would often do a quick sprint for 6-10 strides somewhere in the arena before starting, just to make sure he was in front of my leg. I would also be doing lots of things at home such as putting rugs/coats over and under fences, traffic cones, etc., so that every time she comes round to a fence it looks different to how it did last time and she just gets used to it.

Finally, she could just be a bloody unreliable mare. Been there, done that. Had a fantastic event mare who could jump anything but she had an intermittent issue with a particular type of fence. Never showed up in training. In competition, 1 out of 3 times she'd jump it and we'd win or place, the rest of the time we generally ended up walking off the course. Intensely frustrating and I was so much happier when I sold her on to a talented bloke who was able to overcome the issue and took her up to 3*. If you keep trying and you're not getting anywhere, I'd seriously recommend moving on.
 
Impossible to tell without seeing, but I'd try to get someone else experienced to sit on the horse and really have a play with different scenarios. Even if the mare doesn't stop they might be able to give you some feedback.

I've sat on horses that were perfectly capable but simply got the idea stopping was an option and needed to be reminded otherwise. They have to think how to answer the question, not whether or not they want to be bothered to try.

BUT I've also sat on/taught many horses that stopped under very specific circumstances, even if it seemed random. The solution then depends on analysing that information, which is actually sometimes easier for someone coming fresh to the problem.
 
Dukey - thanks i will try this exercise and if you get any other good tips from your trainer i'd love to hear them

Daisycrazy - thanks for your response. No i don't use my voice - but am certainly prepared to try! I think you are right that she now needs to start learning that this is unacceptable behaviour so small fences and making her jump them from a standstill or few strides does sound like the way forward. Yes i agree she may just be an unreliable mare!! Although she's one that i will never sell (we have too much history) so i have started playing around with dressage as this may be her new career! I am fortunate to have another 5 yr old mare who is totally different and fingers crossed i will have some fun with.

Tarrsteps - I have decided i am giving her one more week (got a clinic with a different SJer on Saturday so want to see what she thinks and then have a competition the following weekend) and if its all still rubbish I am going to beg my trainer to ride her! I had my dressage instructor rider her once and she admitted that she is harder to ride than she looks so hopefully it will give my SJ trainer some more insight!
 
You said yourself she is not confident, so why can't that be the simple answer? Maybe drop down a level or 2 and build her confidence again and then raise it back up? But with the odd small class thrown in to make her happy. If you say she is jumping them the second time then she must not be doing it to be awkward, otherwise she wouldn't jump them at all.
 
My boy does the same thing, it's so frustrating because he is so capable and has down it before. I know a lot of the time it is me, but there have been times when he could have done it but he does it to see if he can get away with it - he is 15 and an overgrown connemara soo... ;) I too will try some of the advice. A good thread :)
 
Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting another rider to question your own ability or even to educate the horse, just as a means of getting another opinion.
 
Bluecakes thanks for your reply - thing in she has been dropped down to 90cm before and it doesn't seem to make a jot of difference. She often jumps better when they are bigger. I agree that the fact she jumps second time means that she's not totally naughty which is why I have tried for a long time to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Tarrsteps - I understand what you mean and no offence taken at all. Anyway you would be right if you were questioning my ability as I am only an amateur and I do plenty of things wrong!

This thread has been great thank you all! I will report back hopefully with videos!
 
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