JellyBeanSkittle
Well-Known Member
I would be absolutely fuming, refusing to pay and be looking for another yard...
Horses vaccinated without owners knowledge or permission
- Thread starter Bedford Joy
- Start date
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I have to agree, I would be looking for another yard too.
Shadow the Reindeer
Well-Known Member
My yard couldn't even get the vet out to see to my horse when he took ill, the vet rang me for consent to come out? Do you have a contract? If so, read it, look for anything that indicates they could do this, it is possible it could be in the small print (the reason why we all should be thorough when signing contracts).. If it's not in the contract, they had no right whatsoever..
HBM1
Well-Known Member
Most of the advice I have read from trusted vets is that vaccinating during an outbreak is not advisable. I would be fuming if anyone did this to any of my horses regardless of what the vaccine was though.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I don't think OP's friends horse is involved in the outbreak.
It's quite safe to vaccinate horses ATM if they are not close to an outbreak .
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
A yard owner could say all horses are to be vacinated or leave the yard.
But to go a head and do it without warning is very bad.
Horse owner could refuse to pay but would probably have to leave yard.
Plus why didn't vets check they had the horse owners permission?
But to go a head and do it without warning is very bad.
Horse owner could refuse to pay but would probably have to leave yard.
Plus why didn't vets check they had the horse owners permission?
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with this basically.
As a YO myself (DIY yard) I would NEVER, ever, do anything to anyone's horse without their permission. I would not call the vet - except in dire emergency, and then expect the owner to pay!
Whilst I appreciate that this may be a busy competing yard and/or dealing, so lots of horses coming onto and off the yard on a regular basis, if I was the owner in this instance, I would be absolutely hopping mad. Yes, it may (or may not) be the sensible thing to do, and it may be a suddenly-introduced "yard policy" due to an emergency situation, BUT the owner(s) of the horses concerned should have been fully consulted including risk factors and costs, and given their agreement, preferably in writing, beforehand.
The vet should have checked who's horse it was anyway before going ahead. And the YO certainly should have checked that it was OK for this to be done; unless there is a clause in the livery contract saying words to the effect that should it be deemed necessary due to an equine disease outbreak nearby the YO has the authority to ask the vet to vaccinate etc etc.
Jools2345
Well-Known Member
lets all blame the vet, it is common for yard owners and staff to act in place of the owner and give permission in the owners absence. especially if the horse is at livery
the owner of the horse needs to check their contract to see if this is covered in it(i would be surprised if it is),if not i would be having words with the YO.
the owner of the horse needs to check their contract to see if this is covered in it(i would be surprised if it is),if not i would be having words with the YO.
Shadow the Reindeer
Well-Known Member
My horse is on DIY, with regards to his current health, I need updating if any changes good or bad occur.. I might be at work, and he could become seriously ill, in which case the vet would have to come out asap, this is something I currently have to consent to, laminitis is not something you can not mess with, it's as urgent as colic. (He has stress induced lammi, but same precautions are in place)
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
The vet is innocent here.
A victim of trust.
Vets get to know horse owners and yard owners.
And trust they are honest with them.
Its often the yard owner that deals with a horse and vet durring treatment and has the passport.
To although vet didn't check they had permission to give this vaccine to the horse. They probably believed the horse owner wanted it done and the yard owner wasn't being deceitful.
A victim of trust.
Vets get to know horse owners and yard owners.
And trust they are honest with them.
Its often the yard owner that deals with a horse and vet durring treatment and has the passport.
To although vet didn't check they had permission to give this vaccine to the horse. They probably believed the horse owner wanted it done and the yard owner wasn't being deceitful.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
Even if it were, those clauses are there to cover incidents to do with sudden injury or illness of a horse where the horses welfare and suffering would be hugely impacted if nothing was done until owner could physically get there.
They are not there to cover YOs to unilaterally have horses injected who are perfectly well horses and where they could have consulted with owners beforehand, and for something which is not standard practice in normal non racing/stud/polo yards.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
This is exactly why the Vet needs to be informed that this has happened. I wouldn't be cross with the Vet (especially if it's normal for the YO to be the one holding the horse for the Vet) but they do need to know the situation, especially if the bill is going to be contested.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't pay, would move off yard asp and take legal action against the YO and vet.
Vet was naïve in thinking that without exception, all owners had given consent in their absence Particularly if he knew some of those clients, didn't he think it strange that they were not there ?
A YO like that is at best unprofessional and at worst, downright dangerous.
Vet was naïve in thinking that without exception, all owners had given consent in their absence Particularly if he knew some of those clients, didn't he think it strange that they were not there ?
A YO like that is at best unprofessional and at worst, downright dangerous.
wench
Well-Known Member
Has the vet invoiced the YO or the horse owner?
The contract for this vaccination was between the vet and YO, not the horse owner. The horse owner should not pay the vets bill.
Asides from this I would be rather mad that YO had arranged for non-emergency treatment without informing me. Vet is not to blame.
The contract for this vaccination was between the vet and YO, not the horse owner. The horse owner should not pay the vets bill.
Asides from this I would be rather mad that YO had arranged for non-emergency treatment without informing me. Vet is not to blame.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Agree 100%.
My argument would not be with the vet, but the YO (who incidently I would expect to foot the bill, but wouldn't be reimbursing).
Jools2345
Well-Known Member
it depends on the clause.
Jools2345
Well-Known Member
ok so take legal action against the vet that will eventually lead to vets not treating in an emergency with out following guidelines set out to legally protect them, this will lead to a delay in emergency treatmen tor pts when needed as guidelines state that 2 vets need to agree a situation is a welfare case before treatment if they do not have the owners permission. its part of the reason the rspca a so useless, they have to follow legal guidelines cos every one wants to fight back.
this will lead to an increase in suffering and deaths, if your horse has colic and no-one can get hold of you as there will be a time delay in getting paperwork printed off and signed by appropriate parties to cover the vets legally, waiting for a 2nd vet to arrive, it will also push costs up.
equine and small animal vets operate very differently and equine vets often fly very close to the wind legally in order to give our horses the best care,
in small animal practice a printer is always handy to print out legal documents in order to get them signed so the vet has proof that someone gave consent , equine vets cant do that.
personally i value the risks our vets take over here and think everyone jumping on the sue them wagon will end up with the welfare of our horses being comprimised
AmyMay
Situation normal
So, OP, what are your friends thoughts on the situation, and what are they going to do?
ponypilotmum
Well-Known Member
I had a pony out on loan, and I had the passport in my possession for a few weeks as I'd moved house and needed to send it off to be changed.
Loaner phoned me upset because the YO had had MY pony vaccinated for Flu without asking. And was charging the loaner for it. Pony had been vaccinated the week before going on loan (and this was just one month into the loan). Loaner was distraught, and had managed to arrange to move pony that weekend.
Phoned the vet and went ballistic. MY animal, NO passport and they had broken just about every rule going.
Loaner refused to pay bill and moved animal.
Loaner phoned me upset because the YO had had MY pony vaccinated for Flu without asking. And was charging the loaner for it. Pony had been vaccinated the week before going on loan (and this was just one month into the loan). Loaner was distraught, and had managed to arrange to move pony that weekend.
Phoned the vet and went ballistic. MY animal, NO passport and they had broken just about every rule going.
Loaner refused to pay bill and moved animal.
wench
Well-Known Member
I really dont think "sueing" a vet would get you very far... for the value of the money it would be totally pointless taking it to the small claims court.
The vet is not responsible here, the YO is.
The vet is not responsible here, the YO is.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
Ok - when i go away my ym has a signed dated letter that is used as her autorisation for treatment - even down to the pts if required.
She has 3 contact numbers for me, my husband and my dad if there is a serious issue with one of the horses and I cannot be reached.
She does NOT have authorisiation to book something she wants doing other than at these times.
I am also assuming that all horses are under the same vet at the yard ?? which even to me is a strange thing to get my head round - unless they were all owned by the same person.
She has 3 contact numbers for me, my husband and my dad if there is a serious issue with one of the horses and I cannot be reached.
She does NOT have authorisiation to book something she wants doing other than at these times.
I am also assuming that all horses are under the same vet at the yard ?? which even to me is a strange thing to get my head round - unless they were all owned by the same person.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Same for me too.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
and sorry - what happend if she had a horse inoculated and it triggered some awful reaction ? who would be responsible then ?
and if this is your logic what would stop a yo or ym having a horse pts through "their opinion" rather than you wishing to try and continue treatment ?
and if this is your logic what would stop a yo or ym having a horse pts through "their opinion" rather than you wishing to try and continue treatment ?
hnmisty
Well-Known Member
I can see where the YO is coming from...but she's gone about it in the wrong way!
Fair enough if she wants all the horses on her yard innoculated against EHV- you send a letter/text/tell everyone on the yard that you want all horses to have the jab, and if the owners aren't in agreement then they need to find a new yard.
I'd be p*ssed, but certainly wouldn't think of trying to take legal action against the vet. Would you take legal action if you'd said in conversation to the YO "yes, that's find, give him the jab" and the vet had asked for proof of your permission which obviously the YO doesn't have, so the vet refuses to jab? It goes either way. Not the vet's fault, it's the YO's. It seems to me that either way the vet would have got it in the neck.
Fair enough if she wants all the horses on her yard innoculated against EHV- you send a letter/text/tell everyone on the yard that you want all horses to have the jab, and if the owners aren't in agreement then they need to find a new yard.
I'd be p*ssed, but certainly wouldn't think of trying to take legal action against the vet. Would you take legal action if you'd said in conversation to the YO "yes, that's find, give him the jab" and the vet had asked for proof of your permission which obviously the YO doesn't have, so the vet refuses to jab? It goes either way. Not the vet's fault, it's the YO's. It seems to me that either way the vet would have got it in the neck.
armchair_rider
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't blame the vet. So far as the YO is concerned...
Vaccinate or leave policy? Fair enough
Suggest everyone should vaccinate? Fair enough
Unilateral decision to vaccinate all horses on yard without consent? Not cool, especially where the vaccine is of debatable value. Agree that the OP's friend should refuse to pay and should look for another yard
Vaccinate or leave policy? Fair enough
Suggest everyone should vaccinate? Fair enough
Unilateral decision to vaccinate all horses on yard without consent? Not cool, especially where the vaccine is of debatable value. Agree that the OP's friend should refuse to pay and should look for another yard
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
The vet should have the permission of the owner 1st 2nd 3rd and last - no iffs no butts - they are strict enough on a horse being 8 hours out of date on their annual jab - que re-start on 3 injections - so they should enusre they permission for the treatment they are carrying out - do you really think that out of a yard of single horse owners - not one would turn up for the jabs ?
I am not clouding the issue with emergancies - one horse of mine is at a yard too far away for me to get too in the case of an emergancy - the vet has on the horses notes that the ym has MY permission to do what ever they need to - i.e. call outs etc - totally different kettle of fish.
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MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
According to the RCVS, the vet should ;
[obtain the client's consent to treatment unless delay would adversely affect the animal's welfare (to give informed consent, clients must be aware of risks]
Emergency provision is quite separate and has different guidelines. In this instance the OP is not discussing treatment for any illness but prophylactic therapy.
If the horses are on full livery, the YO does not have authority to sanction EHV vacs without obtaining consent from the owners. She should have satisfied the vet that owners had given permission and knew of possible side effects and costs.
How did the vet know that the vac did not interfere with treatment or vacs from another vet ?
In challenging the vet's practice, it makes him aware that randomly treating horses that be treated by another vet - or the owner does not wish to pay for, is unacceptable.
It does not mean that in an emergency, he would then refuse treatment because that would be against the RCVS code of conduct.
So, yes, the vet is at fault, even though the YO may have mislead him.
[obtain the client's consent to treatment unless delay would adversely affect the animal's welfare (to give informed consent, clients must be aware of risks]
Emergency provision is quite separate and has different guidelines. In this instance the OP is not discussing treatment for any illness but prophylactic therapy.
If the horses are on full livery, the YO does not have authority to sanction EHV vacs without obtaining consent from the owners. She should have satisfied the vet that owners had given permission and knew of possible side effects and costs.
How did the vet know that the vac did not interfere with treatment or vacs from another vet ?
In challenging the vet's practice, it makes him aware that randomly treating horses that be treated by another vet - or the owner does not wish to pay for, is unacceptable.
It does not mean that in an emergency, he would then refuse treatment because that would be against the RCVS code of conduct.
So, yes, the vet is at fault, even though the YO may have mislead him.
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
None of mine do. I have around 50 horses living on my farm. Many of my owners live thousands of miles away and I see them once or maybe twice a year, so it's doubtful they'd turn up for vaccination day. I've used the same farm vet for years but he still has no idea which horses are owned by me and which are owned by others. He doesn't care tbh, he bills me and I pay the bill. I invoice the owners at the end of the month and they forward payment to me. My breeding owners wouldn't be impressed with me if I forgot to have the broodmares vaccinated or just didn't get them done. They don't remember to ask for them to be done, so I either tell them when the vet is coming to vaccinate or if I can slip in there as a last minute thing with the vet then I'll have them done and tell the owners retrospectively.
We don't really know enough about how this yard works to judge fully and there may well be something in the livery contract which covers the YO (as I have in my own livery contracts). I also have in my contract that all horses on my premises MUST be kept up to date on 2 specific vaccines so my owners all know I will keep them utd on them. If I had horses on livery I wouldn't actually be bothered about the YO having my horses given their routine vaccinations however specialised vaccinations I am quite picky about and would not find it acceptable if a YO just went ahead and had my horses vaccinated for something I did not want, or ask for.
PS I am in a different country so perhaps regulations are not the same in the UK
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wench
Well-Known Member
Yes but as far as the vet is aware the YO has got permission from the owner for all the vaccs to happen...
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
Springy - I have no arguement with your method at all - its the same as the new big lad - I cannot get to see him very often due to my leg - so I have entusted and empowered the horses care to the yo - if anything happened I would be 100% supportive of what ever she and the vet did.
My other 3 - about a mile down the road - now if I am in the UK - and the YM did not speak to me about a vet visit - I would go mental - happy for her to get the vet on way in the case of an emergancy and THEN call me or hubby or dad - but to just book a vet and administer treatment - no way.
My other 3 - about a mile down the road - now if I am in the UK - and the YM did not speak to me about a vet visit - I would go mental - happy for her to get the vet on way in the case of an emergancy and THEN call me or hubby or dad - but to just book a vet and administer treatment - no way.