Horses who DON'T make the big, impressive shape over a fence

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Starbucks

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I'm thinking unproven youngsters really. You know the videos and pics with horses jumping massively and quite impressively. Loose and ridden.

What do you think it means if young horses don't do this? So they make a decent enough shape but just do enough?

My 5yo mare is like this. She gives me no reason to think she lacks ability as does everything asked so far but she's very relaxed and doesn't seem to feel the need to do too much, especially over poles.

Do you think this means she lacks ability? Or needs more training on her technique? Or will just give more when the fences get more challenging?? Or something else?

How important is it to you that a horse has a big, impressive jump as a baby?
 
Hmm, interesting question. I have to say I'm not really sure as I've never bought a horse to train for jumping that hasn't got good technique (I'm talking neat, not necessarily extravagant).

Trailing front legs I don't mind, as long as they're trailing equally iyswim, particularly over a small fence and if they've got a decent bascule.

When I was a teenager I did used to jump a pony that was fairly unconventional. She was exceptionally ugly bless her, with the body of a horse, legs of a 12 hander, short neck and gert big coffin of a head. I used to jump her round 3'3" courses but I think I was really scrapping the barrel of her ability with that. I used to have to ride her very deep into the fences so she could sort of ping herself from the bottom of them. But to be honest I think it was her oh so plucky mindset that got her over those fences, and I certainly wouldn't want to ride a horse making adjustments like that.

What is it your horse does that isn't good shape-wise?

ETA: my big horse has good technique over a fence but cannot do poles (well, one at a time is alright), he just gets his brain in too much of a tangle and will not just let himself go mentally and figure it out. Even loose in the school, he just slows to a slug's trot then stands on them, kicks them about before having a minor breakdown about the whole ordeal
 
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She doesn't do anything wrong as such, she tucks up nicely in front and when she's got something a bit more spooky / solid to jump makes a better shape and picks her back end up more. But she often just pops over, just doing enough. She's not massively clumsy but not careful either!

She has more of a TB style than you more scopey jumper I suppose.
 
I think they are a bit like the flashy moving dressage prospects, they look impressive but rarely last the distance as it is no more than a moment in time, set up to impress and most will not be able to maintain it, many riders will not be able to ride it, a friend of mine who is an experienced producer of young SJ's has one that jumps far too extravagantly, it has not learnt to jump what is in front of it despite every effort and the result is it cannot get through combinations in bigger tracks, it is also slow against the clock at a lower levels so not much use for the job it was bred for but it looked impressive as a green horse.

I think the trend is getting ridiculous, I have seen videos where the horses are landing so steep, chucking away their back end, they are almost vertical, no one needs that in a youngster, careful behind , neat in front, a decent shape is all most people require, it also helps if they stay sound long enough to get where you want as well, making a huge effort, landing so steep cannot be good for long term soundness so however flashy they look it is useless if they are broken by 6.
I would far rather see something enjoying it's job, taking care, gaining in confidence over a period of time than a flash in the pan, if yours is learning, jumping regular clears then unless you feel she is limited you cannot be doing too badly as she is still very young.
 
Thanks be positive. That's kind of what I was hoping - I don't want to do anything massive and see her as a 'nice allrounder' type but to a decent level I hope.

I bought her because she has the same sire as my old horse who had a Huge amount of jumping ability (but bought for temperament rather than jump), his mum was by Cruising though, so I think that's where that came from. I could barely ride him as a youngster though so 10 years and 2 babies later I'm kind of glad she's not like him!
 
Starbucks said:
She doesn't do anything wrong as such, she tucks up nicely in front and when she's got something a bit more spooky / solid to jump makes a better shape and picks her back end up more. But she often just pops over, just doing enough. She's not massively clumsy but not careful either!

She has more of a TB style than you more scopey jumper I suppose.
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Oh well I wouldn't worry about that, as long as their neat and intuitive then the rest can be trained.
 
be positive said:
I think they are a bit like the flashy moving dressage prospects, they look impressive but rarely last the distance as it is no more than a moment in time, set up to impress and most will not be able to maintain it, many riders will not be able to ride it, a friend of mine who is an experienced producer of young SJ's has one that jumps far too extravagantly, it has not learnt to jump what is in front of it despite every effort and the result is it cannot get through combinations in bigger tracks, it is also slow against the clock at a lower levels so not much use for the job it was bred for but it looked impressive as a green horse.

I think the trend is getting ridiculous, I have seen videos where the horses are landing so steep, chucking away their back end, they are almost vertical, no one needs that in a youngster, careful behind , neat in front, a decent shape is all most people require, it also helps if they stay sound long enough to get where you want as well, making a huge effort, landing so steep cannot be good for long term soundness so however flashy they look it is useless if they are broken by 6.
I would far rather see something enjoying it's job, taking care, gaining in confidence over a period of time than a flash in the pan, if yours is learning, jumping regular clears then unless you feel she is limited you cannot be doing too badly as she is still very young.
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Ah yes, I know what you mean, and I actually find those types of advert very off putting. If I did have 20k burning a whole in my pocket it certainly wouldn't be spent on a youngster with that kind of jumping style. A friend sent me a picture of a particularly extreme one the other day and it just looked like hell of 4 legs to jump
 
Why is this forum so difficult to upload pictures to, grrrrrrr!!!! Anyway that's a fairly rubbish one of a collection I was trying to upload. HHO need to hire a decent IT manager!
 
Looks like a nice jump to me - as long as she's neat and doesn't leave a leg xc, I wouldn't worry. I'm another who is very put off by pictures of youngsters jumping vertically behind. How is anyone supposed to sit to that?
 
Id rather have a horse that does just enough like yours. I seem to have horses who like to over jump.

My 2 homebreds, both jump , and flick the back end. As a baby my gelding would land really steep, but over the years has learnt to control it. It took a while, until he was 7, as he just didn't have the strength in his back, and would need regular physio to keep him comfortable.

hes nearly at a point where I can get on, I reckon by next year maybe. So I bought myself a full irish draught to have fun on. Guess what, she over jumps too. took her to a local show at the weekend, and she only jumped top of the wings . The difference with her though is, that I can sit to her jumps. ( with the aid of my handy neck strap) She makes a very comfortable jump.

My lad used to be worse than this :
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Hes jumped since a 4 year old, hes now 8, and sound. So it hasn't affected him yet. But then hes not out jumping every weekend.

There are photos/adverts on FB daily with youngsters loose jumping, ive even started to seeing a more worrying trend of showing foals being loose jumped. Its just not right.
 
Totally agree with Dabdab and BePositive. The adverts you see now with the real pinch-boot style action on some horses is so off putting, they look like they're trained to impress rather than to last and to jump clears, and I worry about SI injuries. I've got two to jump at the moment. One takes a great photo but gets eliminated, the other dangles her legs and brings home prizes. Guess which one I most enjoy taking out.

I have had 5yos which didn't make a great shape, but went on to develop a more classic jump when older and stronger. Other horses just feel relaxed enough already to not need to over-jump. I don't think it's a flaw. Certainly cuts your time in jump offs and makes the distances come up easier! :)
 
You can work on a not brilliant shape to improve it, taming a more extravagant one is harder. And as for the loose jumping... well the problems it's caused me with my current horse have just reaffirmed that I don't like it :( I bought her because she was what we call a "butty mare" strong looking, nice neat jump - although if it's spooky will overjump - and looking ready to crack on.
Sadly because she's been chased around it's taking me a while to teach her that the pilot does know a bit and is worth listening too - especially on the approach to a fence!
 
My mare always liked to give everything plenty of space, ok when jumping 90 and we competed 1.05 with 1.10 jump off happily enough. Bigger than that, which I only schooled over a few times at home I couldn't sit on her giving 1.20 that much space.
 
Often what comes with a big impressive shape over a fence is too much air time, which adds valuable time on against the clock.

My JA pony was economical, never had anything down so gave fences just enough room, but didn't waste time in the air.
 
I bought a nice unbroken 5 yr old, who showed a pleasant, economical, effective jump when he started his career. I thought I'd sell him as a nice RC type when the time came. He went Advanced BE, was jumping B&Cs and never jumped more than he had to.

I also had a very very smart jumper - by Mayhill, out of a G line Hanoverian mare, who overjumped everything - not always with the flashy hind end, but always at least 2-3 feet higher than the jump. I sent him to pro sj-ers to produce and sell as he was never going to be an event horse (spent too much time in the air, too careful). He got to 1,30 classes and they told me to sell him - he'd got all the double clears he needed at the lower levels, looked to have potential at higher levels. They said that he was still over jumping - and it wouldn't be long before he reached the end of his scope - he wouldn't be able to clear 1.50/1.60 and leave nearly a metre above the fence.

They said he'd start stopping and then he'd stop jumping, because he hadn't worked out how to jump lower.

I'd rather have your type, OP - easier to ride and easier on themselves.
 
spacefaer said:
I bought a nice unbroken 5 yr old, who showed a pleasant, economical, effective jump when he started his career. I thought I'd sell him as a nice RC type when the time came. He went Advanced BE, was jumping B&Cs and never jumped more than he had to.

I also had a very very smart jumper - by Mayhill, out of a G line Hanoverian mare, who overjumped everything - not always with the flashy hind end, but always at least 2-3 feet higher than the jump. I sent him to pro sj-ers to produce and sell as he was never going to be an event horse (spent too much time in the air, too careful). He got to 1,30 classes and they told me to sell him - he'd got all the double clears he needed at the lower levels, looked to have potential at higher levels. They said that he was still over jumping - and it wouldn't be long before he reached the end of his scope - he wouldn't be able to clear 1.50/1.60 and leave nearly a metre above the fence.

They said he'd start stopping and then he'd stop jumping, because he hadn't worked out how to jump lower.

I'd rather have your type, OP - easier to ride and easier on themselves.
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Exactly this... My 15.2hh mare is up to OI standard at BE. If you saw her jump a cross pole, you wouldn't think she would ever jump big tracks. She only does enough, and will jump 1-25m the same as a small fence. She has a extra sharp front leg, and never wastes time XC by over jumping. For me, as a breeder of eventers, the front leg angle is the one thing I'm looking at in a photo. The angle of the shoulder and folding the knees right up is very important. Much less chance of a rotational fall.
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cundlegreen said:
For me, as a breeder of eventers, the front leg angle is the one thing I'm looking at in a photo. The angle of the shoulder and folding the knees right up is very important. Much less chance of a rotational fall.
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This. However, a poor technique can be improved in some horses. My homebred 6yo was very dangly and careless in front last year, even with her pro riders. She went on to a very experienced (semi pro) loan home who have worked hard with her, and her technique has improved immensely. They were quite upfront in saying they wouldn't keep her if she didn't shape up, but they put the work in, and she has.
 
I don't think you can really know either way. A flashy jumper obviously shows it's scope more, but needs a better brain I think. Economical jumpers need to be careful.
Mine has a tendency to over jump, but is improving, but if we get a dodgy stride we still go sky high. Some ecomonical horses never seem to run out of scope and are careful, but plenty have a limit. You cannot not know either way though until you try and jump some bigger fences (not suggesting you do that I mean in time) and this is the joy/risk of buying youngsters. My friend had a fab horse who was very careful and economical, but he found 1.10m courses was her max. 90-1m she was unbeatable though and she was great xc too. I had a massive jumper who was just amazing and went on to compete 1.30m with ease and he never took a lame step, until a field injury ended his career at 18 so it certainly didn't do him any harm. Brain is the most important thing
 
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