Horses you have to "stay on top of" all the time

[alishaarrr]

It has been a real journey with my 11yo ISH gelding the past year and a half. When I bought him, I did not realize I was getting a horse who is very smart, opinionated, and stubborn ... but here we are.

To be fair to him, I understand he didn't have a very stable situation in his younger years and has been bounced around a lot. I think a lot of foundational good manners have never been required of him, and he's smart enough to figure out how to train people to let him get away with murder. Without really good leadership in place, he lacks confidence at times and responds by trying to take over and giving you an argument if you don't allow him to do so. There's a very thin margin between being too soft with him (he takes charge and doesn't listen) and being too firm with him (he will get up on adrenaline and give you a pretty good fight).

We have spent a lot of time working on groundwork, relaxation, trust-building, etc. That has helped a fair bit, but he still has his reactive/explosive moments of protest and is constantly testing me. I don't find that particularly pleasant, but with UK COVID lockdown I can't sell him for the foreseeable future, so we're going to keep plodding along and see if he can't continue to improve and come around to being a good citizen.

I do not prefer to have a partnership with my horse where I keep him on a short leash, but I think that's unfortunately what's required of this one -- any time he senses you aren't confidently in the driver's seat, he'll try to take over.

I would love to hear from those of you out there who have a similar type of horse whom you have to "stay on top of" all the time. How have you managed to achieve a positive partnership with your horse? How does this not feel constantly adversarial? Does this ever improve with time with a smart, stubborn horse like this who eventually learns to give in and go along with you?

This guy is super talented and generally lovely to ride (provided you ride him properly), but the obstinate antics really spoil the fun for me half the time.

 

[ihatework]

This is a really tricky one to answer because it’s not a one size fits all.

Horses obviously all have different personalities and need to be managed accordingly. And yes undoubtedly there are some that you need to keep on top of far more than others.

What I would say though, is if you aren’t getting on top of things and getting more consistency in terms of behaviour by adapting your training and management then it would be worth keeping a journal of when you are seeing the bad side of his behaviour. Jot down turnout/weather/workload/exercise trying to achieve and see if there is a pattern. Often you see objectionable behaviour when a horse is stressed/doesn’t understand/hurts

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I have two a little like this, or well they are both mares lol.

One you have to give a tight hold of because she is way more into her flight response than thinking things through, she tries 100% and doesn't 'argue' but you still have to manage her emotions all the time as left to her own devices she will just descend into chaos on the ground and ridden.

The other is much braver and bolder and will therefore push her luck and 'try it on', I've had her since a 2 year old so some of it is my doing in making her brave as I didn't want another spooky mess lol.

For both of them I think it's just a case of very clear, very black and white boundaries. There are no grey areas that lead to muddying the waters, so everyone knows where they stand, it helps that only myself or my mum handle them so we can be completely consistent with them. I've learnt to laugh at them and accept them for what they are, neither are trying to annoy me (though the frustration can be awful when you just want a quiet ride), they just are what they are.

 

[Michen]

I have a very sharp, very bright, very “extra” performance bred connemara who gave me no end of trouble as a youngster. He is still not for the faint of heart but he’s a complete partner, we have an understanding (although he broke it the other day for the first time in 3 years but I’ll consider that a momentary blip!) and he is a hugely trustworthy animal.

I don’t need to “keep on top of him” I just need to understand him, know when to push and when to back off and keep his lifestyle as such that he doesn’t get too bored and frustrated.

He gets the occasional smack when he needs snapping out of some sort of imaginary story he’s playing out, but it’s really, really rare. Usually a look is enough with him now. And any smack is usually on the ground, not anything under saddle.

 

[NinjaPony]

Honestly, I’ve had my Welsh boy 14 years and he’s still very much an ‘on top of’ pony. All that’s changed really is that he trusts me a lot more, so the over reactions are fewer and less extreme than before. I can also tell him off without the world ending, and usually just a word is enough to stop him pushing his luck. We bicker like an old married couple but there is an understanding between us, so it works!
ETA- managing his mental needs is key. He loves routine, and is noticeably less sharp when he’s turned out 8-5pm, and not hungry. Weather also makes a difference, he’s more tricky when it’s windy and wet.

 

[alishaarrr]

Honestly, I’ve had my Welsh boy 14 years and he’s still very much an ‘on top of’ pony. All that’s changed really is that he trusts me a lot more, so the over reactions are fewer and less extreme than before. I can also tell him off without the world ending, and usually just a word is enough to stop him pushing his luck. We bicker like an old married couple but there is an understanding between us, so it works!

NinjaPony, I would really love to hear more about how you got to this point! We are definitely still at the stage where he does not completely trust me yet (not a ton of time together still, has been through a lot of hands so I'm sure that will come more slowly for him), and yes, the overreactions can be extreme and the testing boundaries still fairly frequent! Any words of wisdom other than consistency and time?

 

[NinjaPony]

I hate to say it, but honestly just time and a LOT of patience. Mine came to me quite young, in a very bad way, angry and resentful of the world and incredibly defensive. He’s only 11.2hh which helps, it’s less intimidating when they are little.

Ive done a lot of ground work with him over the years, not necessarily to train specific things but just going out for walks together. I try very hard to ignore the meltdowns, and praise him a lot when he stands still and looks, rather than reacting first. If he is scared, I’ll put myself in between whatever it is, and often will touch it myself to prove it’s not going to hurt him. If I need to tell him off, I go for a scary noise, or a small poke on the shoulder.

I’m strict on certain things, like no barging in and out of stables, no snatching feet, no pushing me around. Backing up is a very useful tool to have, getting him to move his feet around you.

It’s also learning to read his mood, so I can either scold, or reassure him, depending on what’s causing the problem. I try not to make a drama out of anything, if he behaves badly, I tell him off quietly and then immediately move on to the next thing. Ditto fear, we go past the issue, then we move on like it didn’t happen.

It can be exhausting sometimes. Even after all these years, he will occasionally push his luck and you just think ‘really?!’ But we love each other very much, and it’s been rewarding to watch him learn to manage his own reactions. He used to spin whenever he was upset, and he will do it occasionally now but stops himself. For me, the key has been rewarding that self control. For example, the other day he stood on the fencing, panicked, and took off in the field. But then, he stopped, looked at me, I called him over and he came up, and let me untangle his lead rope and sort it all out. So initial panic then became calm, because he knew I wasn’t going to be cross with him, and he could trust me to sort out the issue.

Wish I could be clearer but honestly I’ve just been making it up as I go along. Sometimes it works, sometimes I still get it wrong but we muddle along together.

 

[SEL]

My big mare - but I've had her nearly 6 years now so we understand each other and i can usually deal with whatever she's about to do with a sharp Ah, Ah or NO!

Yesterday she dealt with a loose horse galloping past her. Her old behaviour would be to grow to 19h, go up vertically and p-off - often kicking out at me in the process. Yesterday we got to the 19h part and i told her sharply to Pack It In. She held it together with all the horses in the fields doing somersaults as well as the loose horse. Bottled it all up until I turned her out where she had her explosion - that I'm ok with.

Not sure what your horse is like gut-wise but I need to manage this mare as if she's ulcery all year round. If her stomach causes issues then she's vile

 

[Michen]

Sorry I read your post and replied quickly whilst on calls but just wanted to further the "it's possible" mindset.

Honestly my guy was so explosive. The things he used to do often came out of no where, though mostly had a catalyst. I was told by numerous people to sell him as he'd always be too sharp and difficult for me. But I too was stuck with him as he then had a mild lameness issue which, although resolved, sort of made him worthless in the short term without a clean vet history.

Thank god I did. I've now galloped that horse down a beach bareback, hunted him all over southern england, hacked him within a couple of weeks of ankle surgery, ridden him tackless, put completely novice riders on him (in the school), he's carted me around many events and is truly a horse of a lifetime.

What made him come good was work, a job, and getting him "on side". I think that's the difference, he's too intelligent to "keep on top of". With him it's a partnership. I don't need to make him "think" things are his idea because our ideas are pretty much the same.

However my other connie is cheeky, not as intelligent and he needs more of a "keep on top of" approach.

 

[Leandy]

In my view it is always necessary to "keep on top of" every horse although they are all different and some are more assertive and opinionated than others. What I mean is that, all the time, you should be instilling and rewarding good habits and discouraging bad ones. This should be life long training. If you don't keep on top of the little things and nip in the bud a tendency for the horse to go in the wrong direction then there is always a risk of allowing bad habits to develop into problems. This is where many owners and riders go wrong, they assume the polite nicely trained horse or pony they have taken on will continue like that and they are too complacent and before they know what is happening, the tables have turned and the animal is no longer what they thought they had. The key is in not letting the bad habits develop in the first place, don't give them the opportunity. Some horses are of course much quicker and cleverer than others and want to be in charge, others are more amenable and less inclined to take advantage but that doesn't mean they won't if they are allowed to, or they may go the other way and refuse to do things out of lack of confidence because they aren't getting the confident leadership they need. Much napping starts this way for example. It sounds as though you are doing all the right things, just keep on being consistent and the good behaviour will ultimately prevail and the bad recede into the background. With an intelligent dominant horse however, you will always need to be on his case to some extent. Keeping horses like this busy, well exercised and focussed on a job helps immeasurably.

 

[cauda equina]

Warwick Schiller has a saying which I really like - 'They know when you know, and they know when you don't know'
ie horses know when you're mentally with them and in the moment, and they know when you've stopped paying attention and your mind is elsewhere

With anxious horses (which it sounds like yours is) I think it's extra important to make sure you are 'in charge' all the time, and your horse knows you are, so he knows you've got his back and he doesn't have to make his own arrangements to try to stay safe

 

[J&S]

I think finding the job to do that they actually enjoy really helps. I owned a massively reactive chestnut mare who could turn inside out at any time. My big pleasure at the time was jumping but it didn't suit her and so I concentrated on dressage and long distance which gave us real goals to aim for on every ride.

 

[Jellymoon]

I had one very similar and I found it got to me in the end. He needed a lot of work and a very strict routine to function happily and I found with my work and family commitments I couldn’t give him what he needed. I have my horses at home and he wasn’t a relaxing horse to share your life with!! Poor chap.
The unpredictability was so wearing, and also every time we went on holiday, knowing that I would havcontend with for at least the first few days on return. And also finding people to help who were capable of managing him was hard so I used to send him away to a professional yard every time we went away.
I eventually came to the realisation that he was much happier and more settled on the big yard where they have lots of horses and a strict daily routine, hackInt in a group, nice big arena to school in etc etc. It was very hard to come to terms with as he was really a dream horse in every other way. Very talented, gorgeous flatwork and mahoosive jump, when all the his stars were perfectly aligned, there wasn’t one to compare to him.
My theory about him was that he was never fully tame, there was always this feral side that you couldn’t get through to. He was happy in a herd with his friends, but never that at ease with humans. No amount of patient ground work and consistent training, all of which myself and my connections did with him, changed him.
Thankfully, the professional rider he used to stay with when we went on holiday bought him, and he was happy.
I was very relieved and I’ve never regretted it, although I do miss his wonderful scope sometimes.

 

[alishaarrr]

Sorry I read your post and replied quickly whilst on calls but just wanted to further the "it's possible" mindset.

Honestly my guy was so explosive. The things he used to do often came out of no where, though mostly had a catalyst. I was told by numerous people to sell him as he'd always be too sharp and difficult for me. But I too was stuck with him as he then had a mild lameness issue which, although resolved, sort of made him worthless in the short term without a clean vet history.

Thank god I did. I've now galloped that horse down a beach bareback, hunted him all over southern england, hacked him within a couple of weeks of ankle surgery, ridden him tackless, put completely novice riders on him (in the school), he's carted me around many events and is truly a horse of a lifetime.

What made him come good was work, a job, and getting him "on side". I think that's the difference, he's too intelligent to "keep on top of". With him it's a partnership. I don't need to make him "think" things are his idea because our ideas are pretty much the same.

However my other connie is cheeky, not as intelligent and he needs more of a "keep on top of" approach.

Michen, this sounds so much like my horse and you've done all the things I'd like to do with him ... do you mind if I send you a DM? I would really love to learn more from your experiences with both of your horses!

 

[Michen]

Michen, this sounds so much like my horse and you've done all the things I'd like to do with him ... do you mind if I send you a DM? I would really love to learn more from your experiences with both of your horses!

Sure, I am no expert but have been through the ringer with the sharp one in particular and now I worship him

 

[Equi]

My 21yo is like this. He can be totally dead to the world 99% of the time, then 1% he is in the stars..esp if he hears a noise or sees a light lol thankfully this 1% is usually always with me or YO who can both tell him to get a grip and noone else who helps turnout etc has complained but ive told them to always let me know if he is on one cause i can then take him back to bootcamp and do his basic groundwork lessons again for a while and that tends to settle him for a while. Im so used to him its automatic to do little bits daily just on our turnout/in/stable life, but anyone else who doesn't know him the same would not be doing these but expect him to walk willingly and patiently. Lastnight we were riding and he saw a torch light (someone in the field walking the dog) and he just went to the moon..i didn't even feel safe trying to dismount him at that point as he was trying to spin and take off at the same time but he is in a routine enough to know that he MUST stand to let me get the gate latch so we did that rather than continue our ride and we managed to get to the stable yard without him exploding further but he was 20hh the rest of the evening. He spent all his energy though cause today he would barely trot

 

[ponynutz]

I was very young, so unfortunately probably did everything wrong from the start! However, what I've learnt is to not get too bogged down with 'am I doing the right thing', 'do we get on', 'what do others think', and just take each day as it comes, and give her plenty of love when she's being good (which is most of the time now), and take that away when she isn't being. That 'love' needn't be pets and cuddles either, although that's what mine likes best, it can be little tidbits, a bit of a jump at the end of a flatwork session, a good hack etc.