horsey qualifications- do they mean much to you?

lassiesuca

lassiesuca

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Just a question into your opinions- what's your opinion on people with BHS qualifications, diplomas in equine care etc- does that make them more experienced and therefore their opinion to be absolutely correct? So many people I know around here come out of the local college waving their wee NVQ or whatever shouting out to anyone who dares disagree that they are right and far more experienced because they have qualification x, y and z. I have no intention to study any sort course once I've left sixth form (going to Uni to do languages), but I just think there's a lot of stigma around the equine qualification and whether it really means that much?


What do you think? Is it a worthless qualification?
 
Depends really, if they have been studied for part time while someone was working on a yard I would rate them. If they were done at a college with a bit of yard work being the only experience then no. I have actually taught on some of these courses in the past and its mainly theory with a bit of practical. I wouldn't leave them in charge of my horses.
 
Qualifications are for idiots.
I've owned horses for 20 years; that makes me an expert.
I've also had a set of teeth for far longer - so I'm damn near a dentist - and wouldn't mind having a bash at a few of your teeth?
And I've owned a car since I was 17 - so mechanics can teach me nothing.
S :D
 
I took and passed my BHSAI and then my I (way before it was divided into sections) I thought the PC 'A' test was far tougher than the AI.

The thing with exams - especially the BHS ones is that you have to know how to do things as written in the books but like many exams they have little use in real life.

Exams prove a person can study, what I want is someone who has had the practical experience both on the ground and in the saddle - and not just with 'school' horses.
 
Imo, A mix of Qualifications and broad experience are the best combo.
There are a few educated eejits out there :D, the one size fits all, if the book says it !! :rolleyes:, heaven forbid the horse can be seen as an individual. But also there are experienced folks who've had one horse for 20 yrs who are usually experienced in their horse :D and have one set of good skills suited to one horse.
 
Depends on the qualification. I have the misfortune of living near one of the big agricultural colleges, and my experience of the equine science students and graduates is that I wouldn't trust them with a "my little pony" let alone my horses. I genuinely believe it is a pointless, "joke" degree whose graduates have minimal employment prospects and that the funding used on it would be better relocated to more useful courses and degrees.

However, that doesn't mean I would be happy using an unqualified vet ;) I imagine the equine physio students may be better? (possibly not if the vet physio students I've encountered are anything to go by?!) Certainly a BHSAI-type qualification would be better than an unqualified instructor, but that doesn't mean I would take their word as gospel!
 
I have both (experience and letters after name), the one came before the other (i.e. got qualification after many years working with horses, in several countries) and I can honestly say that I got nothing from the lectures, etc. I had to take for the qualification. Still, a BHSAI or whatever at least means that some rational program has been followed, unlike the "I've been riding (badly) for 20 years" sort of hexperts.
 
Ive got a degree in sports science (equine) & i work at a big yard, working towards my stages, im teaching on my yard to gain experience & ride my own etc. Not everyone who has a degree in 'horse' is useless....
 
As a person with 20 years varied horse experience , it was impossible to get a senior management job in a riding school due to insurance [it was non teaching and non riding] but in racing the main thing is to turn up on time ready to ride out, and take it from there, once one has worked for one trainer, one has a "card" and a record, racing is a small world.
I went through the college system, and as far as I am concerned, it is a starting point, a basic training, which one adds to, according to opportunities and ambitions.
Some people are natural instructors, and if they have had plenty of experience and instruction, they can pass this on to others: I have had good instruction from a 19 year old unqualified person, and have had useless instruction from a qualified person who is a riding school instructor!
I am at such an age [bus pass and more] that I ask my instructor to ride my boy and then tell me how to proceed. unconventional, but it works!
 
I tend to go to qualifications as a first point of call then experience which can out weigh. I.e. I chose a riding school because I could have a lesson with a FBHS (if i was feeling flush) and an AI (If I wasn't!) but I have since tried two instructors there who are not qualified beyond stage 2 (which on my day was my ability) who are fabulous for me and my novice boyfriend, a tricky lesson group by any standards! They have both on the otherhand been trained by the FBHS who is fabulously old school!

Then again I've had carriage driving lessons with a wonderful man called Johnny Arden who has been driving all his life and has the most amazing stories but doesn't have his LHHI.

One qual I really wouldn't touch for riding is the UKcc. I've had 2 and they were both appalling to the point where I complained. Too busy trying to have a conversation with you than actually teaching. Too confrontational apparently.....
 
Do you know, posts like this make me mad! It tends to be the people WITHOUT qualifications that seem to think that they mean nothing. I have just taken my BHSI and if you think that you don't need EXPERIENCE to gain this then you are very wrong.
You need to be competing and riding a variety of horses at a decent level. You also need to know rules of every discapline as well as know about training riders and students. You need to be able to discuss all levels from grass route riders through to riders and horses on the equine pathway and world class squads.
You also need to be able to assess from the floor a horses way of going both on the flat and over fences.
The people you teach are competing at a min of medium level dressage, BE intermediate and SJ over Foxhunter courses.
Added to this the stable management side where you have to know in depth all aspects of horse care inc endurance, 3 day eventing, breeding, AI, give lectures in conformation , the structure of the mouth, be able to talk about running an equestrian centre as a business, the legal aspects , insurance, PAYE, book keeping, accident reporting, COSHH, RIDDOR, give a lecture in a classroom using prepared hand outs on a variety of subjects.
And thats just the start.
Even at stage four you need to know the endocrine, reproduction, circulatory, respitory systems in some depth as well as knowing the way nutrients affect the horse and where they are found.
All the exams are examined by people that are /have been competing and teaching to a high level and expect they quality back.
I think, maybe, those who think they mean nothing, should actually look at the Syllabus for each exam and see what is actually involved before rendering them useless!
 
Well said, Charlie76 - and congratulations on gaining your BHSI.
You are right - the ones who don't rate qualifications are the ones who don't have any, or don't know any better - and the point is that you need experience to pass BHS exams.
Fitting a double bridle quickly for example...that's not something you can learn without doing (and riding in them).
Those who say 'I know an ES graduate and they can't muck out' - ridiculous. An equine science degree doesn't gear graduates to ***** shovel (last time I looked, you didn't need half a brain to do that).
And if you look around you, in the equine industry, you'll see it is full of ES and EBM graduates (amongst other degrees) doing sterling work so that you can ride, compete, and enjoy your horses.
S :D
 
I'm not qualified, nor do I aspire to be. The nature of my job (breaking & schooling), requires experience in the field, not training. If I was taught, and didn't learn by doing/seeing, well then in my opinion I'd be pretty useless. You need to be able to adopt different techniques for different horses, learning by a book, doesn't give you this. I'm lucky enough to have been given the opportunity to learn whilst doing with a highly skilled trainer who's been all over the world, I,d rather that than bhs any day!

In terms of clients, the ones that are genuine horse people and are in genuine difficulty couldn't care less if I had bhs training. The numpties who have bought a horse that is totally unsuitable and caused more problems than they have fixed, do tend to question it, but once they have seen me work are more than happy. I do instruct, but not as my main job, but those that I do teach, have said how brilliant I am compared to those they have had of the same age, straight out of bhs training or college.
I'm not saying that getting your qualifications is bad, and a lot of instructors are ace, but it's just not for me!
 
Doesn't it depend on what job you are looking to fill? If I needed a yard manager I would require some formal qualification, probably involving an HND etc.
An Instructor - well experience counts but ABRS or BHS exams are almost essential if only to keep your insurers happy.
But for yard staff? honestly, would you get someone with an engineering degree to change your tyre? College courses at least the short ones generally reflect someone leaving school and differing about what to do next, give me experience every time.
But remember you can not tell how good someone is going to be from their CV of experience any better than their list of letters it always boils down more to personality than any amount of training.
 
charlie76 said:
Do you know, posts like this make me mad! It tends to be the people WITHOUT qualifications that seem to think that they mean nothing. I have just taken my BHSI and if you think that you don't need EXPERIENCE to gain this then you are very wrong.
You need to be competing and riding a variety of horses at a decent level. You also need to know rules of every discapline as well as know about training riders and students. You need to be able to discuss all levels from grass route riders through to riders and horses on the equine pathway and world class squads.
You also need to be able to assess from the floor a horses way of going both on the flat and over fences.
The people you teach are competing at a min of medium level dressage, BE intermediate and SJ over Foxhunter courses.
Added to this the stable management side where you have to know in depth all aspects of horse care inc endurance, 3 day eventing, breeding, AI, give lectures in conformation , the structure of the mouth, be able to talk about running an equestrian centre as a business, the legal aspects , insurance, PAYE, book keeping, accident reporting, COSHH, RIDDOR, give a lecture in a classroom using prepared hand outs on a variety of subjects.
And thats just the start.
Even at stage four you need to know the endocrine, reproduction, circulatory, respitory systems in some depth as well as knowing the way nutrients affect the horse and where they are found.
All the exams are examined by people that are /have been competing and teaching to a high level and expect they quality back.
I think, maybe, those who think they mean nothing, should actually look at the Syllabus for each exam and see what is actually involved before rendering them useless!
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Couldn't agree more with you and Shilasdair. And huge congratulations on passing your BHSI. I have held my BHSAI for over 20 years and it really has been one of the most useful qualifications to have. My current job as a riding instructor providing donkey riding therapy to children with special needs and disabilities requires me to hold BHSAI - and it's a reflection of how much work and effort and how trainable you are to be awarded that qualification. I do continue to learn through regular lessons on my own horse and attending clinics etc. Perhaps all these people who are dissing BHS qualifications should have a go at them and then decide how useful (or not) they are. Experience is wonderful but if you have gained your experience from somebody(ies) not particularly great, then at the very least it's not worth anything and at the most can be extremely dangerous
 
Please also take into account that people with BHS qualifications are not just college leavers! I didn't go to college, in fact, those that I know that did have only ever got as far as their BHS Stage 2. Most college courses are degrees and such like, not BHS courses, the BHS exams are done as a side if they have the time/inclination.
I think there is a wide opinion that anyone with a BHS qualification must be a college leaver. This is simply not the case.
You can gain your BHS 1 and 2 simply by knowing the basics and doing things the BHS way but anything over this level requires experience in the industry, even if its just to learn how to do things in a safe way.
Don't forget also, to gain your BHSAI and BHSIT you have to complete portfolios proving that you are working in the industry and therefore gaining experience.
 
Cortez said:
. Still, a BHSAI or whatever at least means that some rational program has been followed, unlike the "I've been riding (badly) for 20 years" sort of hexperts.
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Speaking as someone who is BHS qualified (over 25 years ago) I am afraid I don't believe the BHS qualifications, nor many of the other degree type horse management courses, are a good recommendation. In fact, in my experience, I would rather employ someone with no 'formal' qualifications. Most BHS staff and instructors I've interviewed think they know it all and can equally have ridden and taught badly for 20 years or more. In fact, I am constantly horrified at the standard of riding and teaching that can pass a BHS qualification. I am not proud of having passed a qualification with such low standards and very rarely even mention it. My riding, horse management and eaching skills didn't improve until I left the whole system.
 
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For my horses health, I want a highly trained vet, dentist, physio, chiro, saddler, farrier etc. Someone who has invested time and money into training with a recognised training establishment.
Someone who runs a tack shop and calls themselves a saddler or has done a short course on massage or trimming isn't coming near any of my horses.

However, when it comes to breaking, training or behavioural problems, I am more likely to go with my gut instincts, rather than just formal qualifications. Some people have a natural affinity for teaching and working with horses, an eye for the way a horse moves or responds. While formal qualifications are an indication of knowledge and competence, they aren't an indication of giftedness.
 
I think you would be suprised now at the amount that do not pass. They have changed the structure of the exam, if they are not good enough on the flat then they do not jump- they fail.
I think there have been a number of people on here recently that compete at a decent standard that have been horrified not to get through to the jumping phase of the exam. This proves that the standard has to improve to gain the qualification.

And I still don't get the thinking behind anyone assuming that you can just walk into a BHS exam and be handed the qualification no matter how useless/rubbish you are! I have worked VERY hard for my qualifications and ensured I have gained as much experience as I could. Without this experience I would never have had the knowledge to take my most recent exam.
I also know of MANY people competing at a high level ( IE Badminton ) that have failed the exam, the whole lot not just one section.
 
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classicalfan said:
Speaking as someone who is BHS qualified (over 25 years ago) I am afraid I don't believe the BHS qualifications, nor many of the other degree type horse management courses, are a good recommendation. In fact, in my experience, I would rather employ someone with no 'formal' qualifications. Most BHS staff and instructors I've interviewed think they know it all and can equally have ridden and taught badly for 20 years or more. In fact, I am constantly horrified at the standard of riding and teaching that can pass a BHS qualification. I am not proud of having passed a qualification with such low standards and very rarely even mention it. My riding, horse management and eaching skills didn't improve until I left the whole system.
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I don't understand this attitude.
If I thought I were a bad example of my profession, I'd do something about it - improve myself through learning, rather than blaming the profession.
As with all other professions, perhaps if you did your quals 25yrs ago, you could do with a little updating?
S :(
 
Shilasdair said:
Those who say 'I know an ES graduate and they can't muck out' - ridiculous. An equine science degree doesn't gear graduates to ***** shovel (last time I looked, you didn't need half a brain to do that).
And if you look around you, in the equine industry, you'll see it is full of ES and EBM graduates (amongst other degrees) doing sterling work so that you can ride, compete, and enjoy your horses.
S :D
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I think Charlie76 and Shilasdair have hit the nail on the head for the most part.

I have half of my BHSI and am studying for the other half at the moment (Charlie76, I sent you a PM the other day, did you get it?). Again, I have a mixture of experience and qualifications - you need a LOT of experience to gain the BHS qualifications at the higher levels, which is why I don't have mine yet - I need more experience in the showjumping side of things to get there.

I think part of the problem which sparks these sorts of posts is the 'university culture' which we live in at the moment. Most schools push pupils to go onto further and higher education and I think this has influenced where we are. Teenagers feel pressured to go to uni or college and earn a qualification (plus the government, through EMA etc, effectively pay them for it, whilst they also make it very difficult for yards etc to take on trainees). Therefore we do get people coming out of uni with a degree or similar who DO want to go and do yard work or grooming. I agree - I wouldn't get someone with an engineering degree to change a tyre BUT this is the situation we are getting into because people feel they have to continue in education.

I was in this situation - my parents desperately wanted me to do a degree and an equine degree was the compromise between us. Realistically though I didn't want to work in a lab, or as a nutritionist or in sales or anything else which required a degree. I wanted to teach riding. After a year I dropped out and continued with my BHS exams and experience (I had already gained Stage 2 and PTT before uni) and this is where I am now. I do wonder if I hadn't spent the year at uni whether I would have my BHSI by now.

ETA - think of the qualifications at the lower levels (ie getting into the teaching at PTT and to some respect AI level) a little like the driving test - you learn the essentials to pass the exam but it is almost impossible to come accross every situation you might need to deal with whilst being taught. You pass the exam and keep learning.
 
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agree totally with whoever said those that bitch about them, generally don't have them. Took my BHSAI and Stage 4 HCM back in the 80s while working as a working pupil. 5 years ago I was made redundant in a different field and it was my BHSAI that kept me afloat. The BHSAI was only ever a starting point, a basic level and one of the worst things the BHS did regarding it (IMO) was to enable those people with the money, to take intensive courses to pass it. my BHSAI led to me working in the US and Europe and in various disciplines.
my mind constantly boggles at the gaps in basic knowledge of horse care and in safety in local 'experienced' riders/managers/owners and think most of them would benefit from some basic BHS courses but then, most of them think they know it all and can't be bothered to open a book.

obviously having a PhD in equine science makes me doubly useless-I just got fed up of **** shovelling for people who knew next to nothing and got lettered up so I could afford my own horses and place :p
 
charlie76 said:
Do you know, posts like this make me mad! It tends to be the people WITHOUT qualifications that seem to think that they mean nothing. I have just taken my BHSI and if you think that you don't need EXPERIENCE to gain this then you are very wrong.
You need to be competing and riding a variety of horses at a decent level. You also need to know rules of every discapline as well as know about training riders and students. You need to be able to discuss all levels from grass route riders through to riders and horses on the equine pathway and world class squads.
You also need to be able to assess from the floor a horses way of going both on the flat and over fences.
The people you teach are competing at a min of medium level dressage, BE intermediate and SJ over Foxhunter courses.
Added to this the stable management side where you have to know in depth all aspects of horse care inc endurance, 3 day eventing, breeding, AI, give lectures in conformation , the structure of the mouth, be able to talk about running an equestrian centre as a business, the legal aspects , insurance, PAYE, book keeping, accident reporting, COSHH, RIDDOR, give a lecture in a classroom using prepared hand outs on a variety of subjects.
And thats just the start.
Even at stage four you need to know the endocrine, reproduction, circulatory, respitory systems in some depth as well as knowing the way nutrients affect the horse and where they are found.
All the exams are examined by people that are /have been competing and teaching to a high level and expect they quality back.
I think, maybe, those who think they mean nothing, should actually look at the Syllabus for each exam and see what is actually involved before rendering them useless!
Click to expand...

My father was in the forces so I moved around alot, I have had the fortune of knowing some fantastic instructors and the misfortune of knowing some awful ones.......the area I now live in has a serious lack of qualified instructors....and boy does it show in the general riding ability round here......that said I have found a good one, she is AI but is very good....but boy is she in the minority round here!!! I too live not too far from a big college, so we have NVQ's coming out of our ears *rollseyes*
 
I would draw a distinction between the BHSAI / I qualifications and equine science students, I would have a degree of respect for the former, but not the latter.

Shilasdair said:
You are right - the ones who don't rate qualifications are the ones who don't have any, or don't know any better.
Click to expand...

I have a degree and a PhD in a "real" science, so that's not aways true.


Shilasdair said:
Those who say 'I know an ES graduate and they can't muck out' - ridiculous. An equine science degree doesn't gear graduates to ***** shovel (last time I looked, you didn't need half a brain to do that).
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Couldn't care less if they handle a shovel. I am deeply concerned by some of the "science" spouted by some of the students and graduates I have met... I don't know what they're taught, but I'm damn sure it's not science.

Shilasdair said:
And if you look around you, in the equine industry, you'll see it is full of ES and EBM graduates (amongst other degrees) doing sterling work so that you can ride, compete, and enjoy your horses.
Click to expand...

I have never come across a ES graduate doing a job to enable me to ride my horses. Unless you count working in a saddlery? :D I'm sure they must exist out there, but I suspect they could have done a proper degree at a respectable university and done the job just as well, if not better.
 
I have my BHSAI I don't rate it because i passed it. But I get really annoyed at people teaching without any qualification for a number of reasons.
1, If you need a teacher how do you know that the person thats teaching knows what there doing!
2, If you don't know how the break or school a horse how do you choose a person that can do it for you!
There are loads of unqualified people out there doing a cracking job.
Just as there is those that don't study or pay for insurance or updateing qualifications or have having a police check.
We complain about dodgy builders/ plummers/electrians, but yet we are ok employing a person thats says they are an eventer blar blar when they infact know very little.
Qualifications set i hope a standard with which people who wish to learn more or just starting out can trust.
Rant over:D
 
I agree with Shilasdair and Charlie 76.

A lot of people seem to enjoy blaming the BHS for all the woes of the equine world. It has to be remembered that the BHSAI is an Assistant Instructor and has never been intended to be a high level qualification, however many people find this is as far as they are capable going or lack the motivation to pursue further qualifications and so try to give the impression that the AI is of a higher standard than it actually is rather than viewing it as an entry level qualification. If people looked at the syllabi of the exams leading to the AI they would perhaps have a better understanding of what the holders have been trained to do. This is in no way undermines the achievement of those with an AI, rather it is an attempt to show where it sits within the BHS qualifications framework. Those that view it as having an exalted status should remember it can be achieved at a relatively young age and that alone should alert them to the fact that holders are unlikely to have a huge depth of experience behind them.

The equestrian world has changed greatly in recent years and the syllabi for the exams have also changed to reflect this and so the content of the BHS exams of years gone by and that of today isn’t comparable at all. Obviously many people who sat exams in the past make huge efforts to keep themselves up to date, gain experience and improve their knowledge but others don’t. It’s only by trial and error that one can be distinguished from the other.

A graduate with an Equine degree is also unlikely to have a wealth of practical experience gained whilst completing their studies as degrees are academic qualifications and as such do not have timetable space for a lot of practical work. That said many graduates will have gone out of their way to gain practical experience out with their course. A non degree college course will usually spend more time teaching basic skills and will often provide work placements for students to gain some experience on working yards.

Whatever the qualification an individual’s personality and manner can make a huge difference too, as a BHS assessor (examiner) this is obvious in candidates from right from Stage 1 – confidence is fine, arrogance is not, in my opinion.

To answer the OP’s question, in an ideal world I would like a mix of qualifications and practical experience along with a approachable personality. Sadly that ideal world does not always exist.
 
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